big issue

[Gromnir]

ok, maybe not a big issue, but it is an issue that we thinks has gotten far less attention than it deserved.

 

in a crpg, character development is mas imporatnte? any disagreement? folks should get real benefits from choosing their attributes and skills and classes n' such. spending a point in persuade should be a tough choice, 'cause it is meaning that you had to forgoe spending a point in treat injury or repair. give self a 14 constitution should be as beneficial as giving self a 14 charisma and so forth. the more balanced the skills and classes and attributes is, the more enjoyable Gromnir finds the whole process of character development in a crpg... which also leads to more replay value we get from game 'cause we wanna play a different character to be seeing what we missed the firstest time through.. or the second time or third.

 

now, we personally thinks that obsidian blew one such balance aspect by giving all jedi classes the same bab... but we won't belabor the point 'cause we think it highly unlikely that obsidian will change their minds 'bout bab progression for the pc version. however, it is not too late to discuss the workbench.

 

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...99entry243399

 

for those who not know, the workbench is a feature of game that allows you to take generic "components" and turn 'em into useful stuff... like super groovy laser cannons... but to create items you needs to have a requisite minnimum skill level in... whatever. some items require high treat injury skills and other items requires high computer skills. the better the item, the higher the skill level required.

 

akari says workbench is bugged... says that workbench is only s'posed to take the pc's skills into account when breaking down AND creating items. lab station is 'posed to work same ways... pc only. personally, we would like for the pc version of kotor2 to reflect the method that were intended to be in the game as it seems to makes skills choices more important... enhances that balance stuff we mentions earlier. 'course we realize that other folks likes the broken bench 'cause they is able to get access to more 1007 in the game.

 

*shrug*

 

you already know what Gromnir

[bodrock]

if the work/lab benches were only s'posed to take the PC's skills into account, I'm glad that it doesn't. I like that some party members specialize in areas the others may not.

[Leferd]

The workbench should be tied to the PC's abilities.

[GarethCarrots]

long opening posts, to late for tht

[Ludozee]

I think that Gromnir has a very good point.

 

Character development in a CRPG is the most important thing IMO, because of the R in RPG. The whole game is based on the role (ie. Char) you play. From what I heard the Devs (at least tried to) made skill choices more important in TSL, but I can't judge for myself if this works because of international gamer.

I think they are somewhat limited in their freedom to fiddle with the attributes due to the D20 rules, but I think attributes are important enough as they are, because they still play a major role depending on which class you choose to play.

 

As for the workbench, I really hope this will be fixed in the PC version. I like a balanced game, and this sounds like unbalanced to me.

[NeverwinterKnight]

'course we realize that other folks likes the broken bench 'cause they is able to get access to more 1007 in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that would be a wrong assumption, atleast where im concerned. like i stated in that thread, i like how the "bugged" version works because it allows me to use npc party members who i would usually not bother with. has nothing to do with powergaming or getting all the upgraded loot i can get.

 

if the work/lab benches were only s'posed to take the PC's skills into account, I'm glad that it doesn't.  I like that some party members specialize in areas the others may not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

exactly. it makes the entire party useful rather than just leaving a couple party members on the ebon hawk the entire game.

[Gromnir]

and as we noted elswere... if you is only finding the npcs useful 'cause they allows you to make ph47 1007, then that ain't what the developers intended... and it ain't making the characters useful save as mobile super discount stores... which seems cheap.

 

bao dur is useful 'cause of security and demolitions skills and 'cause of his ability to take down shields... but if only reason you took him off the ebon hawk were to upgrade your lightsabre, then we think that speaks to a serious flaw in the game... and the characters themselves.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NeverwinterKnight]

and as we noted elswere... if you is only finding the npcs useful 'cause they allows you to make ph47 1007, then that ain't what the developers intended... and it ain't making the characters useful save as mobile super discount stores... which seems cheap.

 

bao dur is useful 'cause of security and demolitions skills and 'cause of his ability to take down shields... but if only reason you took him off the ebon hawk were to upgrade your lightsabre, then we think that speaks to a serious flaw in the game... and the characters themselves.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

its a bit of a stretch, so cut me some slack for this example, but...

 

you could make an argument that using party members to open security locked doors, or disarm mines is just as "cheap" as using them to upgrade items on the workbench or labstation. why? because if you specialize party members in security or demolitions, that means your pc doesnt have to specialize and you can spend your own points somewhere else. how is that any different than the workbench? both are instances of using your party members as an "out" so that your pc doesnt have to spend skill points in those skills.

[Gromnir]

a major difference is 'cause the game were intentionally balanced with the notion that party members would and could disarm mines and open locks... but the 1007 you can get from a workbench were added into game and balanced with the notion that only the pc would be able to create.

 

you not getting this whole balance thing, is you?

[NeverwinterKnight]

a major difference is 'cause the game were intentionally balanced with the notion that party members would and could disarm mines and open locks... but the 1007 you can get from a workbench were added into game and balanced with the notion that only the pc would be able to create.

 

you not getting this whole balance thing, is you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i do get it. which is why i said in the other thread that i wouldnt be moaning and crying if the pc version fixed this.

 

all im telling you is my reasons for why the "bug" is a neat feature for me in my games, because youre making it sound like EVERY person who likes it only likes it because of munchkin reasons or to gain loads and loads of new items, when in fact in my case thats not the motives at all.

[JediMasterRevan]

That is why I do it.

[Judge Hades]

When you are forced to play the biggest group of munchkin classes in d20 why worry about game balance? With how easy the first game is and how easy this game is reported to be, I think that game balance was the furthest thing on their minds when developing this game.

[213374U]

If that is indeed the case, it sucks if you ask me. In a PnP session in which there are a pilot, a Jedi, and a tech specialist, you won't have the Jedi piloting ships or crafting items since that's what other characters are for. Having it otherwise is a lame way of adding balance to the game.

 

But wasn't this about BABs?

[Dimeron]

I agree with Gromnir, it makes skills as well as the int stat far more important.

 

In KOTOR int was the useless.

 

Out of all 6 stats, int is the only way that has the least amount of use for combat. (With the exception with sniper shot) . To make it worse, anything that's controlled by int can be done by the NPC several times better.

 

Now, in KOTOR 2, I can definitely see dev trying to make each stat just as important as the other one. Therefore, if you are making a super melee jedi or a super force wielding jedi, and put all stat into either str/dex/con or wis/char, you should be penalized for dumping int.

 

And in Reverse, if the character gets 16 int and put every level up point into int, they should be rewarded.

 

IMO the item creation system is perfect for this. While one may be better at combat, they wouldn't be able to get the best of the best item in the game. And those items is basically a perk for characters that forgone combat powers.

 

Now, I

[bodrock]

I agree with Gromnir, it makes skills as well as the int stat far more important.

 

In KOTOR int was the useless.

 

Out of all 6 stats, int is the only way that has the least amount of use for combat.  (With the exception with sniper shot) .  To make it worse, anything that's controlled by int can be done by the NPC several times better.

 

Now, in KOTOR 2, I can definitely see dev trying to make each stat just as important as the other one.  Therefore, if you are making a super melee jedi or a super force wielding jedi, and put all stat into either str/dex/con or wis/char, you should be penalized for dumping int.

 

And in Reverse, if the character gets 16 int and put every level up point into int, they should be rewarded.

 

IMO the item creation system is perfect for this.  While one may be better at combat, they wouldn't be able to get the best of the best item in the game.  And those items is basically a perk for characters that forgone combat powers.

 

Now, I

[Epiphany]

Why even make a big deal out of the workbench. Credits are so easy to come by, and the items you can make are so cheap and/or easy to find, using it to do anything but add upgrades to your equipment is unimportant.

 

On top of that, the game is so poorly balanced anyway, that the workbench is the last thing people should be worrying about.

[Judge Hades]

Epiphanyis right on this one. Why bother worrying about game balance. Its a munchkin game so let the munchkins have their fun. I'll be waiting for a Non-Munchkin targeted game from Obsidian. If one ever comes out that is.

[Aaron Contreras]

I like the workbench as it is. Two reasons:

 

1 - The game is really easy. You don't need to use the workbench or lab stations at all. The stuff you can make on the workbench can get pretty good at high levels of skill but still pales in comparison to the 'rare drop' items. After playing through the game twice I've maybe made one or two items I use a great deal from the workbenches.

 

2 - Bao Dur and T3-M4 are both amazing tech characters. It just doesn't make sense to have this incredible creative mind on your team and have him unable to make you a better scope for your guns or a cool lightsaber emitter.

[Epiphany]

2 - Bao Dur and T3-M4 are both amazing tech characters.  It just doesn't make sense to have this incredible creative mind on your team and have him unable to make you a better scope for your guns or a cool lightsaber emitter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If the workbench mattered, this statement would be soooooo true.

[Gromnir]

Epiphanyis right on this one.  Why bother worrying about game balance.  Its a munchkin game so let the munchkins have their fun.  I'll be waiting for a Non-Munchkin targeted game from Obsidian.  If one ever comes out that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

is much less munchkin if you can only use workbench based on pc skills. the stuff you can make on workbench is stuff that rarely shows up in stores and is almost never found in 1007 caches.

 

is game hard w/o workbench? 'course not, but coming from the guy that wanted differentiated bab tables to makes the classes more individualized, we cannot see how you is managing to pull yet another 180 on a similar issue that enhances and encourages diversity... especially since the way it is in game now is a mistake.

 

some folks is stranger than strange.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. worst argument seen this week: the game is so unbalanced that doing anything to fix balance problems should be ignored.

[Epiphany]

the stuff you can make on workbench is stuff that rarely shows up in stores and is almost never found in 1007 caches.

 

That's a big negative on that one.

 

p.s. worst argument seen this week: the game is so unbalanced that doing anything to fix balance problems should be ignored.

 

The workbench is the least of balance issues. As it is, there's nothing on it that you can't naturally find/buy, and that aside, it's a waste of time to devote energy/time into using it, due to the very fact that you find and/or buy several copies of every item you can build. Nothing about the workbench system makes this game unbalanced. It's the last thing someone should worry about.

[ampulator00]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the issue is. I have reads the other link, but I'm still confused. Can somone explain it bettert?

[Gromnir]

"That's a big negative on that one."

 

rrrrriiiiigggghhhhhtttt. 'cause Gromnir found multiple biorestorative underlays v and we found lots of expert fencing emitters and there were improved beam gems in ever cannok gullet.

 

HA!

 

and the stores...

 

yeah... other than the one woman on dantooine (and if you go to her early in the game she has naught but low end stuff,) most stores had two or three upgrade items at most.

 

we know the 1007 is random, but there just ain't no way you found so much stuff in-game that the work bench weren't useful.

 

HA! Good Fun

[Epiphany]

"That's a big negative on that one."

 

rrrrriiiiigggghhhhhtttt.  'cause Gromnir found multiple biorestorative underlays v and we found lots of expert fencing emitters and there were improved beam gems in ever cannok gullet.

 

HA!

 

and the stores...

 

yeah... other than the one woman on dantooine (and if you go to her early in the game she has naught but low end stuff,) most stores had two or three upgrade items at most.

 

we know the 1007 is random, but there just ain't no way you found so much stuff in-game that the work bench weren't useful.

 

HA! Good Fun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, because you didn't find a lot, that means nobody else did... What an assclown.

 

The simple fact of the matter is the loot system IS random, and very random at that, you'll find the dumbest stuff in the most ignorant locations, and you'll find 10 of something very rare one game, and then none of that item the next. But you do find everything that you can build, none of it is special or unique.

[Gromnir]

we never denied that you can find everything, but given the vast numbers of possible stuff available, the likelihood of you actually finding what you want is not all that great. again, the very fact that this stuff IS random makes likelihood of getting the lightsabre and armour and ranged item upgrades you want is highly unlikely.

 

thanks anyway... ace.

 

HA! Good Fun!