There goes 35 hours....

[Jad'en]

The D20's system complications?

 

Its very hard with so many skills and feats to make these types of enemies smart... unlike that of a first person shooter as all they have to do is move and shoot

[OremLittleKing]

By the way, I called BioWare the master of single-player RPGs because I loved BG/BG2, I kinda halfway liked NWN, which they redeemed with the excellent HotU, and I loved KotOR. That's just my personal opinion, though... I can't think of another company out there making better single-player RPGs.

[nightcleaver]

To the first poster:

 

First of all, there were no "tangled ambiguities". DS and LS were pretty clear-cut; but it went further in depth, and questioned how good or how bad LS and DS could be. The Sith always think they're in the right, because they think it's good to test everyone, and not care about anyone but themselves. That's the idea behind it; although perhaps it doesn't belong in a Star Wars game, maybe I just don't know enough about star wars. I can understand that it doesn't give you the same feeling, though.

 

The only things I remember your character not knowing seemed to result from your character being forced to, or wanting to, forget everything (Highlight to read; spoiler)

that happened at Malachor. Malachor, with the voices that drowned you out from the Force.

 

 

And, "shoddy writing" is a statement that the writer's didn't do a good job. Perhaps this is a matter of perspective that he thinks it's shoddy and I don't, but it's certainly not a matter of opinion. Stating that something is an example of bad, or even incomplete, writing, is not something that can be said in a "IMHO" way. I don't particularly care if he says that, but there are certainly a fair share of people who wouldn't agree.

 

In response to this:

 

I expected a quality product.

 

Animations, force powers that are unimportant, new cloaking "look", new crystals (many are useless still), and a workbench/lab station that doesn't allow you to create stuff you can't normally find/buy don't amount to anything in the overall scheme of things.

 

I expected the game to be beta tested.  It wasn't.

 

Shoddy writing, poor story presentation, near non-existant combat AI, and a completely flawed influence system that forces you to bend to your NPC's, and not the other way around.  Those are just a few things that are wrong with this game, and any one of them is far more important then watching your lvl 10 character swing differently than he did at lvl 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First of all, I had no problems having to "Bend" to my NPC's will; I was lightside through and through, but I befriended a few darksiders. The idea was that you would take other NPC's in other play-throughs, and it was supposed to be based on how that character would get along with your character, as you roleplayed them, rather than them just giving you their life story on a whim. I suppose you don't like not being able to get to know everyone at once, then? Perhaps the game mechanics could've been altered to show their intent better, that you wouldn't try fruitlessly to impress NPC's?

It would've been nice if the NPC's moving to the DS/LS according to your influence of them actually showed in the story, but THAT was never promised; it's a shame they didn't have it, but if you really think about it, would it be worth all the effort of trying to do that? You'd have to figure a billion different responses for every NPC, with voice acting for all of it. Perhaps it was rushed, in this.

I noticed that there were a number of dialogue options - I haven't tested this myself - in the Prima guide that could be triggered by a high enough positive or negative influence. Just saying...

 

The non-existence of Force Armor and the armor bonus of Force Speed wasn't a good thing at all, but I don't remember any other Force Powers that were useless. There were force powers galore, useful in all different situations, moreso than the first game. Is this the same game we've played?

[jaguars4ever]

Pretty damn decent review which I agree with on most points...except the Bio master statement. :ph34r:

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

Straightfoward and Consistent.

 

Good Job.

[Epiphany]

First of all, I had no problems having to "Bend" to my NPC's will; I was lightside through and through, but I befriended a few darksiders.  The idea was that you would take other NPC's in other play-throughs, and it was supposed to be based on how that character would get along with your character, as you roleplayed them, rather than them just giving you their life story on a whim.  I suppose you don't like not being able to get to know everyone at once, then?  Perhaps the game mechanics could've been altered to show their intent better, that you wouldn't try fruitlessly to impress NPC's?

It would've been nice if the NPC's moving to the DS/LS according to your influence of them actually showed in the story, but THAT was never promised; it's a shame they didn't have it, but if you really think about it, would it be worth all the effort of trying to do that?  You'd have to figure a billion different responses for every NPC,  with voice acting for all of it.  Perhaps it was rushed, in this.

I noticed that there were a number of dialogue options - I haven't tested this myself - in the Prima guide that could be triggered by a high enough positive or negative influence.  Just saying...

 

The non-existence of Force Armor and the armor bonus of Force Speed wasn't a good thing at all, but I don't remember any other Force Powers that were useless.  There were force powers galore, useful in all different situations, moreso than the first game.  Is this the same game we've played?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm glad you had no problems bending around your NPC's. I did. It was a pointless addition to the game. There was no sense of accomplishment, because the only thing that change was their picture and avatar/paper doll (whichever term you prefer). But yes, it was sort of "promised" in the way that they claimed you could influence your party. That's not the case, because they aren't influenced by your actions, they're influence by how you mold around THEM. That's completely backwards to what the game claims the Exile does. There wouldn't be a billion responses, they'd only have to have done two simple things.

 

1) Give a "lie" option for every good comment you make towards party members, so DS players can maintain their goal of manipulation. This would have caused NO additional dialog, since the response used would be the same as if you were telling the truth.

 

2) If someone is influenced opposite their alignment, just simply TURN OFF the whiney comments when you do things opposite their alignment. No additional dialog, and the annoyance of knowing that nothing changed would be gone.

 

Pointless force powers were:

 

The energy reduction one: 12 points at master level? Yeah, THAT'S helpful.

the other damage reduction one: I think it was like 12 points too, or some pathetically low number that didn't amount to squat when you were high enough lvl to use it.

Force drain: Enemies never used force powers, draining their FP was pointless, and running out of FP was harder than the combat was.

Dominate mind: Much like in KOTOR, there weren't enough opportunities to use this skill. At least this time around, you could waste the points in it, since you were always getting force powers at each lvl up.

the mind shield one: Enemies didn't use force powers against you, why would you need to protect yourself against them? In both of my play throughs, I saw three offenseive powers used. Force wave, drain life and choke. WOW!

Force breach: Enemies didn't use ANY force buffer spells, so there was never anything to breach. Only the

jedi masters

healed.

 

Plus the two broken ones that you mentioned, in one that doesn't work, and the other that only partially does.

 

There may be more, but I couldn't even begin to list them, as there's only a few GOOD powers that people actually use on a consistant basis.

 

So, I wonder, since you asked me, I'll ask the same ignorant question. "Is this the same game we've played?" Or are you just one of those people that run around and use force powers for no reason other than to use them? If you are, that's fine, but far more then half of them have no practical use.

[thepixiesrock]

I agree that force powers weren't used by the enemies. Mind trick and the pursuade were useless in this game I feel. In the first at least you could get out of paying docking fees and such... And the combat left alot to be desired. It was way to easy and I eventually just started running around using force storm because I was too bored to fight anyone because of how overpowered I was...

[mastaGAW]

Yeah, it would only get you banned. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then u and others bashing the game relentlsly would already be banned.

[mastaGAW]

Actually it had about as many persuade options as the last game but not as man force persuade. You could convince people to to do a lot of things if you put a lot of points in persuade like I do. Even the military commander on Dantooine.

[Ludozee]

Yeah, it would only get you banned. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then u and others bashing the game relentlsly would already be banned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:ph34r: Shhht! Hades_one is actually Chris Avellone's fun account! :ph34r:

[Ostkant]

I disagree about Affect/Dominate Mind, Epiphany. I used it all the time throughout the game. I found many conversations to use it in.

 

expected a quality product.

 

Animations, force powers that are unimportant, new cloaking "look", new crystals (many are useless still), and a workbench/lab station that doesn't allow you to create stuff you can't normally find/buy don't amount to anything in the overall scheme of things.

 

I expected the game to be beta tested.  It wasn't.

 

Shoddy writing, poor story presentation, near non-existant combat AI, and a completely flawed influence system that forces you to bend to your NPC's, and not the other way around.  Those are just a few things that are wrong with this game, and any one of them is far more important then watching your lvl 10 character swing differently than he did at lvl 1.

 

Not all Force powers are unimportant or useless. Force Body uses your Health instead of your Force to fuel Force powers - good for players and/or partymembers that suck at Force regeneration. Atton in my party just became a Jedi and his Force bar is pretty bad, so I gave him Force Body, and I healed him with Heal/Improved Heal/Master Heal if his health would run out, no trouble there.

 

I agree some powers are not necessary, I never noticed much NPCs using Force Powers on me, so I don't even need to protect myself against it. However powers such as Battle Meditation on Force Barrier are good to give to a partymember so you can get all buffed up in a big battle. Sometimes I kept losing against a specific sets of NPCs, so I had Kreia buff me and then all went well.

 

What do you mean with "shoddy" writing? And how is a Influence system supposed to work then, if it isn't you yourself making NPCs turn to you side? Sure they changed little in dialogue, but not much. Handmaiden still preaches on how the Dark side is wrong when she has reached full Darkness.

 

Seeing as you paid for the game the negative weighs more than the positive in your case, but someone gave this game to me (Christmas gift) so I didn't really lose money.

 

The only thing I would try in your case is to ignore the negative stuff and focus on the positive in the game. By doing that myself I almost came to like this game much more than KOTOR 1, but the first one still beats it.

[Bokishi]

Yeah, it would only get you banned. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then u and others bashing the game relentlsly would already be banned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:ph34r: Shhht! Hades_one is actually Chris Avellone's fun account! :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Chris Avellone bashing his own game? Now that's just wrong.

[anakins revenge]

y dont u guys try upping the game difficulty next time u tards, u cant play on easy or normal and complain.

yea alotta force powers where useless but force scream is kinda nice when ur playin on hard with aboot 6 mercenaries around u

[Dark Wanderer]

Chris Avellone bashing his own game? Now that's just wrong.

 

Maybe, but then, again he is perhaps not in a position where he can say his true opinions under his real name, thus he says his true opinons under a false name. Not saying that Hades_One is Chis Avellone, but if he was, then the above reason could very well be why he doesn't use his real name

[Ostkant]

Damn I was just editing my post and when I'm done editing it you people have already posted.

[thepixiesrock]

Hades isn't Chris. I know this for a fact because I am Chris Avellone (pulls of mask to reveal Chris' face.)... Muhauhahuahuahauhauahauhauha... :ph34r:

[Bokishi]

Hades isn't Chris.  I know this for a fact because I am Chris Avellone (pulls of mask to reveal Chris' face.)... Muhauhahuahuahauhauahauhauha... :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So Chris, hows business?

[thepixiesrock]

Horrible. There are a bunch of people running around and bad mouthing the game. But they shall be taken care of...

[Dark Wanderer]

But they shall be taken care of...

 

In the "Troubleshooting" way, I assume?

[Catalyst]

Lol :D

 

They should show a little sensitivity. They're gonna hurt the feelings of such nice gentlemen as Akari.

[Epiphany]

I disagree about Affect/Dominate Mind, Epiphany. I used it all the time throughout the game. I found many conversations to use it in.

 

Nah, there's not that many conversations where you can use it, just a handful.

 

Not all Force powers are unimportant or useless. Force Body uses your Health instead of your Force to fuel Force powers - good for players and/or partymembers that suck at Force regeneration. Atton in my party just became a Jedi and his Force bar is pretty bad, so I gave him Force Body, and I healed him with Heal/Improved Heal/Master Heal if his health would run out, no trouble there.

 

I didn't say they were all useless, but the vast majority of them are.

 

I agree some powers are not necessary, I never noticed much NPCs using Force Powers on me, so I don't even need to protect myself against it. However powers such as Battle Meditation on Force Barrier are good to give to a partymember so you can get all buffed up in a big battle. Sometimes I kept losing against a specific sets of NPCs, so I had Kreia buff me and then all went well.

 

Yeah, I had battle meditation too. Used it twice, once to see how it worked, and once in a "cutscene" late in the game. Combat was so simple, who needed to buff?

 

What do you mean with "shoddy" writing? And how is a Influence system supposed to work then, if it isn't you yourself making NPCs turn to you side? Sure they changed little in dialogue, but not much. Handmaiden still preaches on how the Dark side is wrong when she has reached full Darkness.

 

I don't think you understood what I was saying. The influence system is broken because it works backwards. The game talks about how the Exile naturally influences people around him, but the ONLY way you can gain influence with people is for YOU the player to mold around them. The game talks about how the exile naturally effects his allies, but you can't do that, they influence you, not the other way around. Plus, they did not give "lie" options while talking to party members, so sith masters had to actually CARE about someones feelings in order to gain influence.... WTF is up with that? Sorry, but if I'm a sith master, and I'm wanting to convert people to my way of thinking, I'm going to lie to them, and make them THINK I care, when in truth, I'm just manipulating them. The game penalizes you by giving you LS points, which removes your dark mastery bonus. It's horrible.

 

Seeing as you paid for the game the negative weighs more than the positive in your case, but someone gave this game to me (Christmas gift) so I didn't really lose money.

 

The only thing I would try in your case is to ignore the negative stuff and focus on the positive in the game. By doing that myself I almost came to like this game much more than KOTOR 1, but the first one still beats it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd focus on the positives if the negatives weren't so "in your face". As it is, the negatives are so glaring that you can't help but be bombarded with them everytime you play.

[Ostkant]

Nah, there's not that many conversations where you can use it, just a handful.

 

Indeed, and that was all I needed, but it is obvious you are not with me on that opinion.

 

The influence system is broken because it works backwards. The game talks about how the Exile naturally influences people around him, but the ONLY way you can gain influence with people is for YOU the player to mold around them. The game talks about how the exile naturally effects his allies, but you can't do that, they influence you, not the other way around.

 

As I see it, they meant that the Exile draws people to his/her cause. And once they are drawn, they really worship you, in one way or another. Doesn't matter how much they disagree with you, they still feel that they cannot leave you. Still, when they comment on an action of yours that they didn't like, you get LS or DS points, but they are themselves changing, but only in the opposite direction of which you are changing.

 

As it is, the negatives are so glaring that you can't help but be bombarded with them everytime you play.

 

It's very much the contrary for me; the positives are so glaring to me. But don't think I do not notice the negative parts, some of them are indeed annoying, but they just don't appear as "in my face" as you say the negatives do to you.

 

I didn't actually realize the fact that by a party member complaining about me killing somebody that party member is gaining LS points while I gain DS points, vice versa. I just thought "Damn, I just lost some influence with Kreia".

 

But I understand what you mean, it seems clear now that I am thinking about it - party members seem to influence us by disagreeing. Or was that not what you meant?

[NeverwinterKnight]

I don't think you understood what I was saying.  The influence system is broken because it works backwards.  The game talks about how the Exile naturally influences people around him, but the ONLY way you can gain influence with people is for YOU the player to mold around them.  The game talks about how the exile naturally effects his allies, but you can't do that, they influence you, not the other way around.  Plus, they did not give "lie" options while talking to party members, so sith masters had to actually CARE about someones feelings in order to gain influence....  WTF is up with that?  Sorry, but if I'm a sith master, and I'm wanting to convert people to my way of thinking, I'm going to lie to them, and make them THINK I care, when in truth, I'm just manipulating them.  The game penalizes you by giving you LS points, which removes your dark mastery bonus.  It's horrible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thats how it should be though. think about the emperor/palpatine. when he was trying to influence people, did he go around acting darkside? no, he acted the way the people around him would want him to act so that he could get them under his influence. name one time where palpatine acted as his 'true' self in order to get someone to agree with him. he acted like the peace loving, kind, gentle grandfather figure to those around him, even though his own thoughts and ambitions were of the utmost evil. thats how this influence system works. in order to gain influence, first you have to befriend them and 'pretend' to agree with their philosophies, then you turn them to whichever alignment you are.

 

the only thing ill agree with is that once youve got them completely influenced, their dialogue should alter to reflect that. but the influence system itself works how it should. i also thought that there werent enough chances to actually gain or lose influence with party members, especially considering how little time you had to turn them and learn their story. i was hoping that youd gain influence as often as youd gain darkside or lightside points, but even when i had them in my party and did something that gained me experience or ls/ds points, i didnt always gain influence/lose influence with them.

[Epiphany]

I don't think you understood what I was saying.  The influence system is broken because it works backwards.  The game talks about how the Exile naturally influences people around him, but the ONLY way you can gain influence with people is for YOU the player to mold around them.  The game talks about how the exile naturally effects his allies, but you can't do that, they influence you, not the other way around.  Plus, they did not give "lie" options while talking to party members, so sith masters had to actually CARE about someones feelings in order to gain influence....  WTF is up with that?  Sorry, but if I'm a sith master, and I'm wanting to convert people to my way of thinking, I'm going to lie to them, and make them THINK I care, when in truth, I'm just manipulating them.  The game penalizes you by giving you LS points, which removes your dark mastery bonus.  It's horrible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thats how it should be though. think about the emperor/palpatine. when he was trying to influence people, did he go around acting darkside? no, he acted the way the people around him would want him to act so that he could get them under his influence. name one time where palpatine acted as his 'true' self in order to get someone to agree with him. he acted like the peace loving, kind, gentle grandfather figure to those around him, even though his own thoughts and ambitions were of the utmost evil. thats how this influence system works. in order to gain influence, first you have to befriend them and 'pretend' to agree with their philosophies, then you turn them to whichever alignment you are.

 

the only thing ill agree with is that once youve got them completely influenced, their dialogue should alter to reflect that. but the influence system itself works how it should.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Notice how I said they needed a LIE option? Do you think Palpatine was telling everyone the truth when he was expressing his care for others? The game punishes you as a DS character if you trying to "turn" LS characters to your cause, since you are forced to gain LS points, even though you're just wanting to manipulate.

[Epiphany]

As I see it, they meant that the Exile draws people to his/her cause. And once they are drawn, they really worship you, in one way or another. Doesn't matter how much they disagree with you, they still feel that they cannot leave you. Still, when they comment on an action of yours that they didn't like, you get LS or DS points, but they are themselves changing, but only in the opposite direction of which you are changing.

 

Yeah, the exile is supposed to draw people to his cause, but he doesn't, because the game forces YOU to mold around THEM. Therefore, they draw you to their cause of acting in their default alignment. Once you have bended to them, they will reflect an alignment on the character sheet, but they maintain their default alignment tendancies. It's a flawed system, that would have been better if it was left out, and more time was spent on getting the game quality up a little more.