Neverwinter Nights 2 or Dragon Age?

[213374U]

Thats only a consequence of it being used for Diablo not the mana system. It's really no different to how an Amazon uses arrows, or a Paladin uses zeal.

 

One character, you want to make sure that you dont have a lot of dead time. Add another 5 characters into the mix and put them all under the players control and spamming spells no longer becomes a factor. Restoring mana in combat is another thing entirely. One which having 6 characters should not require anyway anymore than IE wizards could burn through their spells in one or two encounters when thats the norm for NwN if your a wizard and you actually want to take an active combat role.

 

That may be your idea of what spells are, but it is by no means a universal truth

Maybe that's one of the reasons I didn't like NWN. However, you can summon stuff and let them do the hand to hand while you cast spells when needed. I don't need frantic action in a RPG.

 

I by no means want a magic system which is just a buffed up bow and arrows. That's what bow and arrows are for, after all.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Maybe that's one of the reasons I didn't like NWN. However, you can summon stuff and let them do the hand to hand while you cast spells when needed. I don't need frantic action in a RPG.

 

I by no means want a magic system which is just a buffed up bow and arrows. That's what bow and arrows are for, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Could be , it's one of the reasons I didnt like it, it felt very hands off compared to BG/IWD.

 

Fair enough. But if you are doing a system where you are all on your own then everyone needs their own way of being able to do a basic attack. DA isnt a solo game so I'm not at all worried about it. Everyone should be able to play their specialised role like they do in D&D (although not in NwN OC).

[Tenjhotenge]

Obsidian aren't funding NWN2, Atari are, and Atari are likely throwing a pretty big budget at NWN2 given that NWN was, and is, such a massive success.

 

That's good news.

 

NWN2 has a two-year development cycle, which is generous, and now that KOTOR2 is done, team-members from that project will move on to NWN2, thereby adding resources, not taking away.

 

I waesn't aware of that. My ignorance can be irritating sometimes.

 

But again, I find you saying odd things; you lay accolades at the feet of Bioware while doubting Obisidian, yet Bioware did both BG and BG2, and if sequels are never as good as the original, by your logic how good can Bioware be?

 

I'll just skip this for now....

 

How is Bioware more flexible and skilled than Obisidian?

 

I meant that Dragon Age will be more flexible than Obsidian and I read about in DA forums or then it was an article... can't really remember.

 

Which is fine, except you seem to be using your own speculation and mistaken conclusions rather than facts to determine which will be better, and it seems your mind is clearly already made up.

 

That was then and this is now. At the moment I can't really say anything but if DA won't support PWs then there's no way I'm wasting my money on it. Even if the single-player story would be the best in the world. Multi-player is what counts, at least for me.

[Judge Hades]

Bioware knows how to create game engines and gives good technical support for their games but their stories of late have been rather lackluster. Obsidian, so far, has released a buggy console game. Lets wait and see.

[Mendoza]

That was then and this is now. At the moment I can't really say anything but if DA won't support PWs then there's no way I'm wasting my money on it. Even if the single-player story would be the best in the world. Multi-player is what counts, at least for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So do you only buy games that support PWs? That gives you a pretty short list of games you own, roughly 0. DA will be multiplayer, and will also have a multiplayer campaign, it just won't have PW's which only a tiny fraction of players play or care about.

[GhostofAnakin]

Obsidian is now making a sequel to the famous role-playing game Neverwinter Nights. It is based in the City of Neverwinter (Just like the original nwn) and it does follow D&D rules. Which is good for those who have played PnP for years. But I doubt they get the game balanced this time. All the happenings of NWN II take part in the city of Neverwinter, that doesn't  offer anything new, does it?  This has been said many times that Obsidian has a strict schelude and limited money to put on this game and they also have other projects on their way (KoTR II). Knights of the Old Republic was also a game by Bioware. But why BioWare are giving all the sequels to Obsidian? Not that it bothers me but I have suspicions. Also, limited time and money will be seen in the quality. I'd say NWN II hits the stores around 2006-2008 but of course I can't know it and it may end up to be stores at 2010.

 

Dragon Age on the other hand offers a brand new world from a skilled team that is more flexible than NWN II. Also BioWare is helping out Obsidian with the toolset and stuff - so in my eyes it looks like Obsidian isn't as skilled as BioWare.  And also, it may be a cliche to say this but I think it's kinda true: "Sequels are never as good as the original ones".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Have you read the NWN2 FAQs? Just a small point. NWN2 is going to be situated in areas AROUND NWN2 as well. It's not just doing the same city over again. Stop oversimplifying things.

[Tenjhotenge]

So do you only buy games that support PWs? That gives you a pretty short list of games you own, roughly 0. DA will be multiplayer, and will also have a multiplayer campaign, it just won't have PW's which only a tiny fraction of players play or care about.

 

For PC, yes. I have no idea why I'm telling you this but since you so kindly asked I just might. I don't like games with no multi-player, except console games like Fable, Halo, Halo 2, and other great games like that. PWs are the only thing that keep me still playing nwn.

 

Have you read the NWN2 FAQs? Just a small point. NWN2 is going to be situated in areas AROUND NWN2 as well. It's not just doing the same city over again. Stop oversimplifying things

 

I have read it a couple of times. And have you read this thread? No. That's what I thought. Phosphor just said the same thing, and yes I noticed. Read the whole thread before you start replying so passionately, it not only make you look stupid but its also irritating spam.

[taks]

uh, just for the record, obsidian does NOT have any games to their credit, yet... somebody mentioned an xbox game which was probably meant to be inxile's bard's tale... not obsidian's.

 

i agree they are a dark horse in this world, but their talent comes from a pool of well trained game designers. as well, they've been working hand in hand with bioware for many years (IE was bio's engine, remember) so the fact they've gotten the sequels is no surprise to me.

 

also, btw, i disagree that sequels are always worse. so far, gothic 2 is better than gothic 1... destiny knight was much better than tales of the unknown (bard's tale 1 and 2. the 3rd, thief of fate, sucked, however)... i preferred baldur's gate 2 to 1 (though not all share that sentiment and even i have things i liked better in the 1st)... most reviews say beyond divinity is better than divine divinity...

 

anyway, it is all opinion, BUT, the real benefit to a sequel is the "lessons learned" concept. the team of designers have honed their skills, they've listened to fans and made appropriate improvements. technology has likely improved (not much with the IE games, which spanned 5 years or so) increasing the quality of the engine/graphics/AI, etc. there are plenty of reasons to favor a sequel over the original, and, in the case of NWN2, you're talking about a sequel released almost 5 years after the original.

 

we shall see

 

taks

[Magnum Opus]

I'm looking (hesitantly, because their more recent offerings haven't done squat for me) forward to DA because from what I've read about it, Bioware has actually been putting a bit of time into building a world of DA. Kind of hard to avoid that kind of thing, I think, since it's a brand new world, but the way they dealt with the Forgotten Realms in the NWN OC has me wondering on that score a bit -- it was like they were relying on people knowing about Neverwinter and its history, and so didn't bother adding any detail to the place. The result was that the campaign was just plain flat. They've got a linguist working on languages for DA, though, so maybe they'll put a little bit of detail into fleshing out other aspects of the world as well. Maybe (faint hope here, but still there) they'll make the plot a little less strict and the world a little more continuous, so that I can explore the world that (I think) they're creating, to find out what's what and who's who.

 

I'm also (hesitantly, since it will be familiar territory, and the whole henchman system isnt' one I like) looking forward to NWN2, because the talent at Obsidian has, IMO, better storytelling (detail-wise, I mean -- Bio's good for EPIC, but the details are what make of break a story for me)/world building capabilities than Bioware. When I look back at it, it was the one-dimensional aspect of NWN that really turned me off from it. I could have adjusted to the stupid henchmen running into combats I'd rather have them avoid. I could have even looked past the sameness of the chapters (fetch four items for Aribeth with one optional quest, then find 3 items for Aribeth with one optional quest, then fetch three items for Aarin with... ) if there'd been some actual depth to the world. Aside from 2 areas in the whole bloody game, though, there wasn't. Too often the areas were just there to provide something for the enemies to stand on, or (even worse, IMO) a puzzle, sometimes with remarkably little effort put into disguising the puzzle as something that might be part of the game world.

 

Some of the folks now at Obsidian had a hand in making the Icewind Dales (hack and slash, sure, but with several of the best areas in any of the IE games), and Torment. I couldn't really care less about the toolset or the multiplayer aspects of the game, but if the NWN2 single player campaign has enough depth to it, they still might get me to fork over my money.

 

Which one am I looking forward to more? Hard to say. DA's going to be interesting because it's new, but it's Bioware that's doing it. Good for a story-focused game, but not really so good at building the world to back it up (or if they are, they haven't shown it yet that I've seen. BG1 was good for that, BG2 somewhat less so, but again, those were in partnership with Black Isle, and I'm not sure who all had what influence on which parts). Solid technical company, but perhaps a little lacking in artistry if NWN is any indication.

 

NWN2's going to have a better single player campaign (as mentioned, it'd be hard for the folks at Obsidian to do worse with it, even disregarding the talent they've got in that regard), but again... it's NWN2. Familiar territory, with the original being less than impressive. Better graphics (hopefully a less "clownish" style, in addition to the more technical improvements, and could someone please do something about the ambulatory toupees? Very hard to concentrate on a conversion when you're afraid your hair is going to run off to the nearest tavern for a quick pint...), but still with AI controlled henchmen. Tile-based, at least the way it was done in the first one, got too repetitive for my liking, as well.

 

At this point, it's hard to say whether I'll buy either of them. Right now, though, I'm leaning ever so slightly toward DA, simply because of the "newness" of it all. That'll probably change a few times before either of them is released, though. Time will tell.

[Phosphor]

Thread pruned. Let's try and maintain a civil conversation, shall we?

[AlanC9]

uh, just for the record, obsidian does NOT have any games to their credit, yet... somebody mentioned an xbox game which was probably meant to be inxile's bard's tale... not obsidian's.

 

Ummm... there is this little thing called KotOR 2, you know.

[Phosphor]

The Xbox game that someone mentioned would very likely be KOTOR2....

[AlanC9]

BG1 was good for that, BG2 somewhat less so, but again, those were in partnership with Black Isle, and I'm not sure who all had what influence on which parts). 

 

The plot, characters, and settings were all Bio's work. Black Isle did stuff like voice talent and whatnot.

 

And yes, Bio's gotten away from the world exploration of BG1. I think this is a design preference for them; I'll be extremely surprised if DA plays more like BG1 than BG2.

 

As for the topic, it's hard to see how the two games are in competition, though I guess DA could release at about the same time as an NWN2 expansion.

[Judge Hades]

Last I saw KotOR 2 was released on the X-Box, taks. They have 1 game on their list as being released.

[Volourn]

"Got you back for the AI henchmen in JE thing"

 

LOL Not quite. I actually first heard about the silly mana thing yestersay. Utter garbage,. Alreayd a huge black mark on DA's character system. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. *DOUBLE PUKE*

 

 

"And yes, I agree with Volourn."

 

You gotta be jokin', 213374U. I think that's the first time you've agreed with me after I posted something.

 

 

"Bioware knows how to create game engines and gives good technical support for their games but their stories of late have been rather lackluster."

 

Yeah, Hades, keep playin' the tune while anyone who read your KOTOR review knows better. Afterall, you called it a great story; one of the best CRPG stories. And, let's not forget your highly postive reaction to HOTU's story. Seriosuly, cna't you keep your own opinions straight? WOWSERS!

 

 

"For PC, yes. I have no idea why I'm telling you this but since you so kindly asked I just might. I don't like games with no multi-player"

 

DA has multi player. And, it'll likely have as much support as NWN did for PWs and NWN PWs have done rather well. And, BIo actually does "unofficially" support NWN PWs. I'm sure they'll liekly do the same if there's a demand for it after DA's release.

 

 

"The plot, characters, and settings were all Bio's work. Black Isle did stuff like voice talent and whatnot."

 

Alan, shh. Don't break people's hearts. Giving credit to BIo for BG1&2's success is wrong. That was all BIS. BIo only made the engine.

 

All I have to say about the BIO vs. Obsidian "feud". (R00fles!). BIo is a successful comapny, and Obsidian is anew company formed from the remains of a failed company. It hurts; but it's the truth. I can say that even though I liked PST, and IWD1 and loved FO2. I won't mention IWD2. Ooops, I did.

 

That is all. For now.

[Magnum Opus]

The plot, characters, and settings were all Bio's work. Black Isle did stuff like voice talent and whatnot.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Was one of those things that I'd read had been cleared up, but never actually saw what was done by whom. Even read that Feargus commented on the issue, but, typically, never saw that post, either. That's what I get for being an only occasional board monkey, I guess.

 

Regardless, their shift away from that sort of world exploration is what's making me most leery of Dragon Age right now. Loved BG1 for that "complete" feeling, liked what there was of it in BG2, found it lacking in ToB, and was downright disappointed with it in NWN, so much so that it really affected my enjoyment of the game as a whole. Even so, though, I could still fill in the numerous blanks from what I knew of the Forgotten Realms from other sources. A brand new world with brand new creatures that I'm not allowed to explore aside from a few set paths or closed off areas is something that's likely to irritate me more than anything else. It just doesn't appeal to me. Could still be fun to play, but it's certainly not my first choice of game.

 

I'm hoping they'll move back to a more BG1-ish world-design philosophy, since I've heard that they're still sticking with areas and loading screens, but I'd be surprised if it happened as well. That's not saying that I don't think a game can't overcome that with enough depth in other areas, but just that it's what I'm hoping for.

 

Volourn: Can't recall where I've ever said that Bioware's only contribution to the BG series was the engine, or that they didn't deserve the lion's share of the credit for it, but I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility that others have. You're certainly free to lump me in with those nameless entities, I guess, even if it's wildly inaccurate to do so. All I really know (well, knew, now) was that there are two logos in the intros to the games, and that Bio did the vast majority of the work. Precisely what the breakdown was between the two companies... just wasn't sure.

[AlanC9]

Loved BG1 for that "complete" feeling, liked what there was of it in BG2, found it lacking in ToB, and was downright disappointed with it in NWN, so much so that it really affected my enjoyment of the game as a whole.

 

How'd you feel about KotOR?

[Magnum Opus]

No opinion whatsoever. Haven't played it, no real intention of playing it. Star Wars irritates me to no end, for some completely irrational and largely uknown reason.

[Orik]

Regardless, their shift away from that sort of world exploration is what's making me most leery of Dragon Age right now.  Loved BG1 for that "complete" feeling, liked what there was of it in BG2, found it lacking in ToB, and was downright disappointed with it in NWN, so much so that it really affected my enjoyment of the game as a whole. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

FYI, Here's what Darcy Pajak had to say over on the Bio boards with regards to the objective for DA:

 

Our objectives is to make a great computer role playing game with a epic story, and great graphics.

The age range will be the ESRB rating of either Teen, (13+) or Mature. But that really needs to be worked out between us and the publisher. But we would like to have few limitations on what we use to convay the mood and tone of the game.

The length should be somewhere between 40~50 hours.

The campaign will be similer to BG2, where there is a known overall goal, but the player is free to explore the country.

[Orik]

"mana based magic system"

 

*PUKE* Absolutely disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

So I presume you hate Bloodlines' magic (discipline) system then? It, too, is a mana type system (mana = blood, certain numbers of blood points are required to cast your "spells").

[Volourn]

"So I presume you hate Bloodlines' magic (discipline) system then? It, too, is a mana type system (mana = blood, certain numbers of blood points are required to cast your "spells"). "

 

Not my fave way of doing these however, BL's 'mana system' is livable for certain reasons:

 

A. It doesn't automatically regenerate.

 

B. You can only "cast' it several times before running out.

 

 

In reverse, KOTOR's force powers mana system is pretty silly because you are almost guarnateed to NEVER run out of force pwoer inbetween battle. this is true for 99.9% of mana magic type systems.

 

I know many dislike it; but I so much prefer D&D wizardy/scholary system for magic.

 

Mana systems only work under extremely tight circumstances and even then like in BL; I tolerate them. Definitely not my first choice.

[Orik]

I actually mostly agree with you then Volourn - I vastly prefer mana systems where your mana doesn't automatically regenerate... so I like Bloodlines' method and D&D's sorcerer class.

 

After that I prefer a wizard-style memorisation system over a system with fast regeneration like KotoR. But then KotoR is a more "actiony" RPG... with any luck Bioware can be persuaded that a system like that would not be good for DA. All we know so far is that it's a mana system - that still leaves a lot of unknowns.

[Magnum Opus]

FYI, Here's what Darcy Pajak had to say over on the Bio boards with regards to the objective for DA:

 

"The campaign will be similer to BG2, where there is a known overall goal, but the player is free to explore the country.

 

That's the sort of thing I like to hear . Free to explore the country... *nods* Step in the right direction.

 

"Our objectives is to make a great computer role playing game with a epic story..."

 

This is the part that's still got me wondering though. "Epic story" usually implies high level stuff, rapid advancement, and a fairly tight plotline (to spread out those 15 - 20 levels you'll be getting over as long a time as you can), and unless you've got really extraordinary events happening, you're usually not going to get an established world with a high concentration of epic-level characters and creatures in a small geographical area -- assuming that the area where DA takes place has well-established societies that have been quietly minding their own business for decades beyond count, that is....

 

Now, knowing nothing about what the history of the DA world has been, and nothing about how the current events in the DA world might be unfolding, I suppose it's certainly possible that they could have a whole mess of high level stuff mixed in with low-level stuff in some bizarre fashion (I'm assuming characters in DA will start at a suitably n00bish level), all within a geographical area the size of what was presented of the Realm's in BG1, but the BG2 method of dropping me down from the world map into a relatively concentrated area of conflict/purpose does seem more likely.

 

After BG1, I was vaguely disappointed with the way that was handled in BG2 -- I would have preferred it if, for example, the Windspear hills area was a set of four or five contiguous areas instead of just one floating off in the middle of nowhere, that involved a little bit of searching and exploration for the dungeon entrance. It would have lessened my feeling that I was spending too much time on the overhead world map, when I should have been in the areas with my character, doing things -- but all in all, BG2 turned out to be one of my all-time favourites, with the depth of the character development and the increased combat options making up for the reduced exploration. Maybe this one will offer a similar experience. Can't say I'd find it unwelcome if it did, but the game's still too far away to say anything with certainty.

 

I'll just have to remain cautiously optimistic until the game gets closer.

 

 

Thanks for the quote, too. I've been following (loosely) DA's development, so that was prety much the impression I had of their goals for it.

[Orik]

The term "Epic Story" usually refers to an epic scope rather than epic levels... i.e. a "save the world from super evil DOOM" story.

[Berserk]

I don't quite get the hostility over mana based magic systems, if it regenerates too quickly simply make it regenerate outside of combat or only during rest. I've always disliked the DnD system since it felt so restricting in terms of spell choice. I want to be able to choose any of my learned spells without needing to go through the tedious moments of the memorization that DnD uses.

 

What is important when using a Mana based is making sure that you balance it properly. Start spamming fireballs left and right and you should be punished for it by not being able to regenarate your mana in combat, the point is still to make you choose smart. Mana recharging items such as mana potions should be severly restricted so you won't be able to make the magic system into a chug'aton that Diablo 2 is. Keep mana potions priceless items that you only want to use in the most dire of circumstances because of their limited availability or extravagant price.

 

Just my own thoughts on how the mana system could be kept from Diablo 2 territory.