Drakron Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Of course ToB was literaly throwing the book away and start to do their own stuff. BioWare implementation of the rules on BG was decent, they did not implemented many things (as dual wield) but at lest they did not fallen into the trap of trying to compensate and screw up. I dont think some key elements of BG1 team were in BG2, BG2 is were BioWare started into making stuff up with mix results, in some cases it worked as in other they made a mess ... item placement that was already a problem in BG1 became a bigger problem in BG2 and made matters worst. ToB is were BioWare break the book, they made stuff up with end up in many cases the unbalance of hell, fact most enemies downright cheated maked thing even worst. Now enters NwN that followed the trend, they make new skills and mechanics (parry as a example) and once again we end up with were it worked and were it failed ... in HotU mages and bards were screwed over due to BioWare "interpertation" of Epic spells (I played fighter/wizard and ... lets say I have no epic spells despite being a lv4 fighterlv20 wizard) with just shows were rules are concerned ... Now we reach SW:KotOR. The story is great but if we take away the story ... ouch. First with the incredible decision of half skill points they made Int a dump stat, you either have Int of 14 or dont bother and that was to "fix" the fact they implemented the total of 8 skills ... not that skills use matter much since the trend of removing the "useless" skill was present in SW:KotOR. Next we have the Sentinel class and that is important because that class could not be "copy/paste", its pure BioWare and, not a suprise, imcomplete ... sure its nice enough (on paper) but something is missing and the fact is their immunities come once in a blue moon, I guess it is better that Uncanning Dodge that Scouts get that I dont think never comes into play, its not like the enemies actually uses player classes besides two. Oh and once again ... item placement is horrible, you simply dont give the best armor in the game before the player reaches half the game. Now IWD series was great, I had equipment for everyone reguadless of class and choice of weapon and even several class expecific items and no uber loot until it was time for the uber loot to show up, enemies have their own classes and everything. What this teach us is that story alone does not make good game, there is always room to improve and if game company losses storyteller staff and does not replace then as equal good storyteller ... well they better have other areas to fall in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Given what CA had done with the prologue section of IWD2 (which I thought was the best section of the game) and his previous work on the acclaimed Planescape Torment, I would be estatic if Obisidian did a D&D game with CA in the lead role. Please Feargus and CA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roshan Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Given what CA had done with the prologue section of IWD2 (which I thought was the best section of the game) and his previous work on the acclaimed Planescape Torment, I would be estatic if Obisidian did a D&D game with CA in the lead role. Please Feargus and CA? dont forget new reno in fallout 2!!! the guy has proven himself time and again and hes a kick ass designer. id like him to work on somethign which allows him to have a lot of creativity, and not work on dnd where his creativity would be limited a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 New Reno is generally not viewed as a good example of MCA's work... There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Given what CA had done with the prologue section of IWD2 (which I thought was the best section of the game) and his previous work on the acclaimed Planescape Torment, I would be estatic if Obisidian did a D&D game with CA in the lead role. Please Feargus and CA? dont forget new reno in fallout 2!!! the guy has proven himself time and again and hes a kick ass designer. id like him to work on somethign which allows him to have a lot of creativity, and not work on dnd where his creativity would be limited a lot. Given how original Planescape Torment was, I doubt a future D&D game would be that inhibiting for CA and crew. Plus, they could set the game in Eberron, which would free the designers from the constraints of more established settings (aka baggage) of the Forgotten Realms and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Situationist Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 New Reno is generally not viewed as a good example of MCA's work... A good example of RPG design though, even if you somehow thought it didn't belong in Fallout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 New Reno is one of the two best cities in Fallout Lore. The other one is Vault City. Awesome, total awesome. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 What, because you had a perfectly good reason to shoot it up? New Reno might not have "belonged", but it was the most interactive and most lively city in Fallout series, IMO. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slammy1 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I would prefer a Cyberpunk 2020 or a SHadowrun game over DnD or Lof5R. If you could make a good Shadowrun game, which is yet to be done. All I've seen are consolesque games, so I'm reluctant. I really think CRPGs have possibilities unavailable in any DnD system. You can do a million things with criticals, tactics, etc., but DnD was designed as a PnP game. I've enjoyed the incarnations, but get tired of repeating the same thing. *sigh* I suppose such a thing is hard to risk since you're guaranteed a base audience. I guess when I've introduced new systems when running campaigns there was always resistance. But there's so much more that could be done than the limiting d20/any D7D system. You'd never get your hand cut off and a mechanical one installed in DnD unless you run some criticals table outside the rules. Swinging a sword is always swinging a sword, the objective is to bruise the other guy to death before he does it to you. Army-level battles are clumsy add-ons, as are a lot of rules. The computer offers a unique opportunity to do some really great things. The trick is to keep it intuitive enough to allow people to adjust, and of course the ability to properly market a game when there's no DnD logo on the cover. I can't see myself buying another DnD game, seems like a been-there done-that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slammy1 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 ...da Kensai/Thief combo was jus' as bad, if'n not worse; 'specially wit' that whole Use Any Item an' Kai Backstab cheeseyness...I agrees that the story an' flow o' action was much better in da IWD Series than da BG Saga (let's not e'en start on NeverWorkin'Right)... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Wizard slayer - Thief all the way. It took a while to get powerful, but when you did... BG was much better IMO, but I guess it's what you're looking for in a CRPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Wizard slayer - Thief all the way. It took a while to get powerful, but when you did... BG was much better IMO, but I guess it's what you're looking for in a CRPG. ...pity that this type o' thinkin' be mainstream...e'erythin' be about the ability ta git Uber-Munchkinized these days...misses, I does, the days where the gamin' experience was foremost in a cRPGers mindset... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 ^To be fair to Slammy, he was only adding his thoughts to your suggestion/observation for powergaming. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 ^To be fair to Slammy, he was only adding his thoughts to your suggestion/observation for powergaming. ...hell, I ain't knockin' 'im fer it...christ, look at 3(.5)E; it be made fer powergamin'...All I's sayin' be that I misses the days where a game like PS:T was appreciated fer the ability ta actually draw the gamer inta its story, makin' ya feel like yer actually there; instead o' the mindset o' games like SoA/ToB an' NeverWorkin'Right, where story takes a back seat ta "I'm sooo Uber-Munchkin Powerful; Let's Kill Everything!!!"... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 We all miss those days, Sarfy...we all do "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Please. The old editions could be just as bad in many ways or they were so limited within the rules that it was silly. Don't think so, read the follwoing class; Dwarven dwarf. Is that screwed up or what? Powergaming only occurs because players like Sarge like it (hence his wanting wemics' CR to be lowered; talk about a munchkin) even though he'll deny. I bet he, like most people who played PST, powergamed during it as well. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 Please. The old editions could be just as bad in many ways or they were so limited within the rules that it was silly. Don't think so, read the follwoing class; Dwarven dwarf. Is that screwed up or what? Powergaming only occurs because players like Sarge like it (hence his wanting wemics' CR to be lowered; talk about a munchkin) even though he'll deny. I bet he, like most people who played PST, powergamed during it as well. ...so, cuz I believes that the ECL penalty on Wemics be too high in 3(.5)E, I's a powergamer...yer gittin' as bad as the KLOWN, dwarf... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Yeha, your favorite race just happens to have a high ECL and you whine about it being lowerd. Yes, that's powergaming as you want your pie (playing a wemic) and eat it too (make it an almost no brainer to be one by dropping the ECL). face it, the wemic's ECL is quite fine where it is. Only a powergame (ie. you) would want it lowered. That be like me wanting my fave race to gain some more abilities when they are just fine how theya re. Silly wemics. Don't ya know that adveturin' is for the "normal" folk. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 Yeha, your favorite race just happens to have a high ECL and you whine about it being lowerd. Yes, that's powergaming as you want your pie (playing a wemic) and eat it too (make it an almost no brainer to be one by dropping the ECL). face it, the wemic's ECL is quite fine where it is. Only a powergame (ie. you) would want it lowered. That be like me wanting my fave race to gain some more abilities when they are just fine how theya re. Silly wemics. Don't ya know that adveturin' is for the "normal" folk. ...that be yer reasonin'???...ye are gittin' as bad as the KLOWN, dwarf...I ne'er once said theys ECL should be dropped altogether...what I said be that an ECL penalty o' +8 makes 'em useless...an ECL penalty o' +4 or +5 would be fine, would balance out wit' theys advantages...Wizards o' the Crapper wants ta git rid o' 'em as a PC, that be why theys made useless...when ya actually comes up wit' a half-decent arguement, give me a call... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Huh? I never satted once you wnated the ECL dropped altogetehr. I said you wanted it lowered. Read there wemic. Oh, i forgot, wemics can't read. Explain to me how the ECL makes them crippled again? Bototm line, critters like wemics arenot supposed to be 'adventurers"; they are 'mosnters" so the ECL represents that fact very nicely. Deal with it, and stop whining. Or better yet, simply chaneg the darn thing. Rule 0 - Learn it, live it, enjoy it. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Actually one of WotC people said ECL were put high to discourage of people playing then but I dont think it was one of FR staff that said that. Also note that FRCS had errata for ECL entries and assigning ECL is not a science, its a question of thinking is a certain ability needs a ECL adjustement and it ends up being a matter of opinion. Also Wemics were not exactly designed as a player race, they were created as monsters first and then assigned a ECL. And last there is book called "Savage Species" that expands playing monsters, one of the options is instead of using ECL they use "monsters levels" so its possible to play a lv1 wemic along with a lv1 elf wizard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riciky Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Didn't Avellone say he wanted to do a game with a modern setting? Am I making this up? I think he also said his favorite movie was Raising Arizona, so i'm hoping for some Nicholas Cage in Project Silverware or whatever. ... Here's a ninja: :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niten_Ryu Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I can't belive that people would want yet another computer RPG with crappy PnP D&D rules. Sure, simple and fast rules have their place in PnP RPGs, but computers can do so much more. Even combined Rolemaster rules with extended critical and fumble tables would not be anything for todays computers. You could basically do hundreds of virtual dice throws in matter of microseconds. I can't stand D&D rules in computer games but I love many D&D worlds, even that clich Let's play Alpha Protocol My misadventures on youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slammy1 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Wizard slayer - Thief all the way. It took a while to get powerful, but when you did... BG was much better IMO, but I guess it's what you're looking for in a CRPG. ...pity that this type o' thinkin' be mainstream...e'erythin' be about the ability ta git Uber-Munchkinized these days...misses, I does, the days where the gamin' experience was foremost in a cRPGers mindset... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Don't you see, Sargy? That's the whole issue with a DnD style game, it was designed for simple combat so that the emphasis is placed instead on roleplay. On a computer, even a very open ended CRPG you're left with limited directions. You're left with trying to build an uber character with uber magic items. Aside from some flimsy pretext to be running around gatherimg wealth and experience, what else is there? Imagine instead. fighters point to where they want to strike. Armor comes in pieces, so you go for a weak point. Left mouse click stab, right mouse click hack. You could bring up a diagram of opponent injuries. Maybe you can disable the sword arm, sweep their legs, or just go for the quick kill there are lots of potential. Contrast that to DnD. Move the mouse over the monster, click, beat until they're down. Sure there's some variance with abilities and such, but again you're taken back to power gaming. I don't think the game should be all about combat, I'm just using it as an example. Surely there are a lot of avenues to explore, including fuzzy logic algorithms to expand role playing potential. Maybe such a system would fail, it certainly would be difficult to grasp for the average CRPG fan, but there are simplifications like tactical combat for the novice PC. The old DnD paradigm may be stale to me, but I guess others aren't terminally bored with dungeon crawls (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Imagine instead. fighters point to where they want to strike. Armor comes in pieces, so you go for a weak point. Left mouse click stab, right mouse click hack. You could bring up a diagram of opponent injuries. Maybe you can disable the sword arm, sweep their legs, or just go for the quick kill there are lots of potential. Contrast that to DnD. Move the mouse over the monster, click, beat until they're down. Sure there's some variance with abilities and such, but again you're taken back to power gaming. Ah, but pnp D&D is just as complex as your first example, if not more. CRPGs simply dumbed it down. One reason I always play as a wizard in any D&D game is that I *can't* stand being a fighter; give me weapons and skills, but in the end there's way too much hack, hack, hack. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlamaGod Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I AM SICK OF FORGOTTEN REALMS AND ALL IT'S "DROW THIS" "ELF THAT" BULLs***. STOP MAKING FORGOTTEN REALMS GAMES ALREADY YOU s***HEADS. dasfkjslkdjflkjsdf Drizzt IS STUPID Elves SUCK And for d20 modern, WHY DONT PEOPLE MAKE THEY OWN SYSTEMS? SARGY, stop typing like a HUGE f***ING MORON. We know you sure do love your Barbarian, i'm very fond of mine too as it was my first character. BUT I DONT ROLEPLAY HIM ON MESSAGEBOARDS BECAUSE, lets say it all at once: IT IS HORRIBLY STUPID Sorry for the ranting, but I HATE FORGOTTEN REALMS AND ALL THE HUGE PILES OF s*** THAT HAVE FALLEN OFF IT'S EVEN BIGGER MOUTAIN OF s***. I also hate people that want more 'base it off this' crap instead of people making their own stuff, while it's fun to have a game that uses the PnP rules, people rarely fully implement them. P.S. Ravenloft sucks and it's got all those silly goths and goths suck too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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