Designer Rambling: PC Causality/Triggered Events

[DSLuke]

Sounds cool. Does this mean you can't be neutral?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't be neutral in Star Wars.

 

 

BTW great info.

I'm really think I'm gonna enjoy this game.

 

From what I've heard from you guys (developers) it seems extremely interesting.

Keep up the good work.

[Judge Hades]

The intention with this was that we thought it would make the PC feel more special if it was more obvious that things were occuring, not because you hit a linear trigger, but because you were the one who set the fuse to the explosives through your actions or through a change in your personality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So we have yet another CRPG that sets the world around the PC instead of being independent of the PC, which is more realistic. Its nice to see that the PC is so invovled withthe story line but in order to increase the immersive factor the game needs to act independently of the PC if the player chooses to do nothing. Inaction is as much important as action, especially in a dynamic story telling envinronment such as RPGs.

[GhostofAnakin]

So we have yet another CRPG that sets the world around the PC instead of being independent of the PC, which is more realistic.  Its nice to see that the PC is so invovled withthe story line but in order to increase the immersive factor the game needs to act independently of the PC if the player chooses to do nothing.  Inaction is as much important as action, especially in a dynamic story telling envinronment such as RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That makes no sense at all.

[213374U]

So we have yet another CRPG that sets the world around the PC instead of being independent of the PC, which is more realistic.  Its nice to see that the PC is so invovled withthe story line but in order to increase the immersive factor the game needs to act independently of the PC if the player chooses to do nothing.  Inaction is as much important as action, especially in a dynamic story telling envinronment such as RPGs.

I don't think so. It makes sense to have the hero of the story shape the universe around him through his actions. The opposite would make no sense. A fully-scripted environment that overlooked the actions of the player would be... little immersive and it would substract from replayability as well.

[Judge Hades]

You haven't watched much good sci fi have you, Ghostie. Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action. For example there was this series of Episodes of Doctor Who called Warrior's Gate, which marked the end of the E-Space trilogy. The Doctor and crew were trapped in a temporal and spacial void and they were not alone. The void was a trap and in danger of collapsing so the Doctor and his companions set forth to get them out of this trap. In this trap was a slave ship and a very demented captain. Well, The Doctor and his friends set forth to thwart the captain and free the slaves, but by doing so they risked being trapped forever and killed when the void collapsed. The seeds that would have led to their freedom has already been set so to ensure success the Doctor only needed to do was nothing.

 

Basically if the PC chooses to do nothing and do his own thing the events of the story continue without him or her. If the Sith are going to conquer the galaxy they aren't going to stop and wait for the PC to show up to stop them. If the PC decides to do something else other than choose Light or Dark side and snubs his nose at teh Jedi and Sith, they aren't going to wait for the PC to change his mind. The world needs to go on, thusly making a more dynamic setting.

[Judge Hades]

I don't think so. It makes sense to have the hero of the story shape the universe around him through his actions. The opposite would make no sense. A fully-scripted environment that overlooked the actions of the player would be... little immersive and it would substract from replayability as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not if it is done right.

[Darth Sirius]

The intention with this was that we thought it would make the PC feel more special if it was more obvious that things were occuring, not because you hit a linear trigger, but because you were the one who set the fuse to the explosives through your actions or through a change in your personality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So we have yet another CRPG that sets the world around the PC instead of being independent of the PC, which is more realistic. Its nice to see that the PC is so invovled withthe story line but in order to increase the immersive factor the game needs to act independently of the PC if the player chooses to do nothing. Inaction is as much important as action, especially in a dynamic story telling envinronment such as RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you so cheerful about?

[GhostofAnakin]

You haven't watched much good sci fi have you, Ghostie.  Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action.  For example there was this series of Episodes of Doctor Who called Warrior's Gate, which marked the end of the E-Space trilogy.  The Doctor and crew were trapped in a temporal and spacial void and they were not alone.  The void was a trap and in danger of collapsing so the Doctor and his companions set forth to get them out of this trap.  In this trap was a slave ship and a very demented captain.  Well, The Doctor and his friends set forth to thwart the captain and free the slaves, but by doing so they risked being trapped forever and killed when the void collapsed.  The seeds that would have led to their freedom has already been set so to ensure success the Doctor only needed to do was nothing. 

 

Basically if the PC chooses to do nothing and do his own thing the events of the story continue without him or her.  If the Sith are going to conquer the galaxy they aren't going to stop and wait for the PC to show up to stop them.  If the PC decides to do something else other than choose Light or Dark side and snubs his nose at teh Jedi and Sith, they aren't going to wait for the PC to change his mind.  The world needs to go on, thusly making a more dynamic setting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is, you're often contradicting yourself about what you want to see happen in a game. On one hand, you say that KOTOR was lacking because YOUR choices (the PC) didn't have much effect on what happened. But now that Chris has stated the opposite, you're saying that shouldn't be the case either.

 

Honestly this time you're just complaining for the sake of complaining without having an actual case.

[DSLuke]

I disagree with you hades.

 

i think that what chris is saying that the Sith may be willing to ask you to join them, if there is much darkness in you

 

On the other hand maybe some hidden Jedi show up if you are high enough on the LS scale.

 

Thats pretty much what I expect to happen judging to what i've heard from Chris..

[213374U]

Basically if the PC chooses to do nothing and do his own thing the events of the story continue without him or her.  If the Sith are going to conquer the galaxy they aren't going to stop and wait for the PC to show up to stop them.  If the PC decides to do something else other than choose Light or Dark side and snubs his nose at teh Jedi and Sith, they aren't going to wait for the PC to change his mind.  The world needs to go on, thusly making a more dynamic setting.

Umm... right. But that doesn't apply here since the K2 storyline is not that open. You cannot choose just to sit back and let 'em bad boys take over the galaxy while you sip beer. In this story, you kick their asses, despite your reasons for doing so.

[Judge Hades]

You simply do not understand what I am saying. WHen the PC does choose to act that act needs to be recognized and have consequences in the game. WHen the character chooses to do nothing, there are consequences to be had in that as well.

[Judge Hades]

I disagree with you hades.

 

i think that what chris is saying that the Sith may be willing to ask you to join them, if there is much darkness in you

 

On the other hand maybe some hidden Jedi show up if you are high enough on the LS scale.

 

Thats pretty much what I expect to happen judging to what i've heard from Chris..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

However what if you told both sides to stick it? WHat would be the consequence of that I wonder.

[213374U]

I'm too tired for a Possible Game Mechanic Problem, Pt. III. I leave it entirely in your hands, GoA.

[GhostofAnakin]

You simply do not understand what I am saying.  WHen the PC does choose to act that act needs to be recognized and have consequences in the game.  WHen the character chooses to do nothing, there are consequences to be had in that as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You ask for things that make no sense at all. Sorry, but this time you're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

[GhostofAnakin]

I'm too tired for a Possible Game Mechanic Problem, Pt. III. I leave it entirely in your hands, GoA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think I can deal with this one. Atleast in terms of game mechanics and the d20 system, Hades had a valid argument. In this case it just seems like he's complaining for the sake of keeping his reputation as a complainer.

 

I personally figured this feature would be a welcome one to most people who complained that KOTOR didn't seem responsive enough based on your decisions. Now that it's implemented and expanded on, he's still complaining.

[Muad'Dib]

So we have yet another CRPG that sets the world around the PC instead of being independent of the PC, which is more realistic.  Its nice to see that the PC is so invovled withthe story line but in order to increase the immersive factor the game needs to act independently of the PC if the player chooses to do nothing.  Inaction is as much important as action, especially in a dynamic story telling envinronment such as RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I understand what you mean and to an extent I do agree. I'd like to see a world that functions independently of the PC and the party's actions, but since PCs are always the central focus of any game it's difficult to visualize how to make a world function like that. It's more realistic but from a gameplay standpoint I just can't see it working, obviously the PCs actions have to shape the course of the story.

 

It would be like the events of RotJ having no impact on the galaxy; ok the Emperor and Vader are dead, the 2nd Death Star was detroyed, the Imperial fleet decimated. But the status quo remains the same afterwards and the Empire is as strong as it ever was.

 

If there was a way to implement a world beyond the PC and still have their actions carry the weight of an epic accomplishment then I'd love to see that. But at least as far as this type of storyline goes, I wouldn't know how to make it work.

[Judge Hades]

I'm too tired for a Possible Game Mechanic Problem, Pt. III. I leave it entirely in your hands, GoA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think I can deal with this one. Atleast in terms of game mechanics and the d20 system, Hades had a valid argument. In this case it just seems like he's complaining for the sake of keeping his reputation as a complainer.

 

I personally figured this feature would be a welcome one to most people who complained that KOTOR didn't seem responsive enough based on your decisions. Now that it's implemented and expanded on, he's still complaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess you simply don't get what I am saying. WHen you act, the game reacts. WHen you do not act, the game needs to go on in story. That is what I am saying. The PCs should not be the center of the universe.

[DSLuke]

Well, you have done something to gather points, LS or DS and it seems that someone is noticing that and keeping a close eye on your character.

[Judge Hades]

Yes, and you should be able to tell those who are watching you to leave you alone.

[DSLuke]

Well, maybe not.

 

but I'm gonna kick their sorry asses.

[DesertHawk]

You haven't watched much good sci fi have you, Ghostie.  Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action.  For example there was this series of Episodes of Doctor Who called Warrior's Gate, which marked the end of the E-Space trilogy.  The Doctor and crew were trapped in a temporal and spacial void and they were not alone.  The void was a trap and in danger of collapsing so the Doctor and his companions set forth to get them out of this trap.  In this trap was a slave ship and a very demented captain.  Well, The Doctor and his friends set forth to thwart the captain and free the slaves, but by doing so they risked being trapped forever and killed when the void collapsed.  The seeds that would have led to their freedom has already been set so to ensure success the Doctor only needed to do was nothing. 

 

Basically if the PC chooses to do nothing and do his own thing the events of the story continue without him or her.  If the Sith are going to conquer the galaxy they aren't going to stop and wait for the PC to show up to stop them.  If the PC decides to do something else other than choose Light or Dark side and snubs his nose at teh Jedi and Sith, they aren't going to wait for the PC to change his mind.  The world needs to go on, thusly making a more dynamic setting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's the episode where Romana goes away with K-9, right?

Pity. . .I liked K-9 (and the first Romana. Not the second Romana.)

[GhostofAnakin]

I guess you simply don't get what I am saying.  WHen you act, the game reacts.  WHen you do not act, the game needs to go on in story.  That is what I am saying.  The PCs should not be the center of the universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Name a game that accomplishes this, including a detail of how it does this in case I haven't played it.

[Enkak]

I guess you simply don't get what I am saying.  WHen you act, the game reacts.  WHen you do not act, the game needs to go on in story.  That is what I am saying.  The PCs should not be the center of the universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Name a game that accomplishes this, including a detail of how it does this in case I haven't played it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, not sure if i understand all he means, but maybe the Shenmue games could be a good example for some stuff Hades is saying. People in stores, streets etc had their own agenda, shops had hours to close, open etc and everything was always moving, except the story part. But at least i think the world of Shenmue had a good dynamic in that sense, because all the NPCs had their "own life" in some ways. Both Shenmue I and II were both very open games, you could advance the story or lose yourself in the world doing some trivial stuff like playing in the arcades, battling, gambling etc etc.

 

Maybe a game with a mixture of that, coupled with some sort of background timer (hidden) that when the player didn't make some actions in some time, certain events could be triggered in the game world.

 

Ok, sorry if i sound confusing

 

But well, that would be very difficult to make in the specific case of Kotor II without changing too much regarding the first game. Maybe a better thing to see in a totally "original" title perhaps?

[Judge Hades]

Enkak, you hit it on the mark, but add in the fact the bad guys are still doing their things and setting their plans into motion. You inaction to stop them or aid them can have dramitc effects on the game.

[DesertHawk]

I guess you simply don't get what I am saying.  WHen you act, the game reacts.  WHen you do not act, the game needs to go on in story.  That is what I am saying.  The PCs should not be the center of the universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Name a game that accomplishes this, including a detail of how it does this in case I haven't played it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

GTA: Vice City. While you can commit crimes, citizens around you can have the coppers chase after them, too. (For beating up the gang members with my nightstick, I get $50! Yaaay.)