One thing I'm afraid of with TSL

[GarethCarrots]

nah, sidious is the master of decay, maul was but the learner, thats why he died before his teeth were fully rotten

[kumquatq3]

but for a roleplayer you would like to make an descent to DS, where you "think" you are making a good decision and it end up being very bad

 

That shouldn't be a path to the DS. If you make your choices based on help/saving/doing the right thing, but they turn out wrong, that shouldn't be a DS point. As yoru not doing anything out of anger or hate or fear.

 

I like the way that was handled...you are turning evil without even knowing what you did was evil until it actually hits you.

 

Again, that is NOT the path to the DS. Anakin, to use your example, didn't go bad because he was trying to hard but kept screwing up. He went bad because he was arrogant and hated thos that he saw as "holding him back".

 

When I played KOTOR as LS I felt like I had a purpose and I felt like I had something driving me. When playing DS I didn't really feel like I had a purpose to be DS other then just to see the 2nd of the two endings. When doing DS choices I didn't really feel like I needed to do that I was always like "I just did that so that I can get DS points." See where I'm going?

 

I do, but what would you feel would give yu purpose. What do you expect the devs to do to make you feel enough hate or fear to feel justified in playing the DS at every turn?

 

To me, I can only think of one reason to play the DS. It's fun to be bad sometimes.

 

 

Do you think Darth Maul turned evil cause he stole credits from people?

 

No, but you can't be blowing up planets or killing off the last remaining jedi on every little quest and hope to make a enjoyable RPG. Or can you...

[Drakron]

The "quick and easier" path have always been how a Jedi uses the force.

 

BioWare decided to use the "magic" force with mana pool and all as from what we seen in the movies its a question of a Jedi use his skills to use the force to achive a result, be it to jump really high of choke someone.

 

The dark side "powers" always been destructive because its easier to destroy, take Luke when he gone to Jabba palace that simply choke those guards to move in and then mental controled the buttler to get into Jabba chamber.

 

With the system in place in KotOR engine it simply cannot be done that way so such "fall" into the dark side is largely done via dialogue and scripted events ...

[kumquatq3]

With the system in place in KotOR engine it simply cannot be done that way so such "fall" into the dark side is largely done via dialogue and scripted events ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats more or less what I'm trying to say. What people are asking for here (temptation) isn't exactly easy to pull off in a non-petty way for every little quest. Lets face it, those little quest add up.

[Rosbjerg]

With the system in place in KotOR engine it simply cannot be done that way so such "fall" into the dark side is largely done via dialogue and scripted events ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats more or less what I'm trying to say. What people are asking for here (temptation) isn't exactly easy to pull off in a non-petty way for every little quest. Lets face it, those little quest add up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

okay let me rephrase then .. I wan't better temptations that will lead me to the dark side things that anger him etc .. one point at the time! until I can justify (from a Roleplaying perspective) why my character would finally sucumb to the Dark Side ..

[kumquatq3]

With the system in place in KotOR engine it simply cannot be done that way so such "fall" into the dark side is largely done via dialogue and scripted events ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats more or less what I'm trying to say. What people are asking for here (temptation) isn't exactly easy to pull off in a non-petty way for every little quest. Lets face it, those little quest add up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

okay let me rephrase then .. I wan't better temptations that will lead me to the dark side things that anger him etc .. one point at the time! until I can justify (from a Roleplaying perspective) why my character would finally sucumb to the Dark Side ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can understand that. I can see where people felt a little lost in K1 playing the DS from the start, as your real reason for playing the DS didn't come till later (tho it did kinda of justifiy the past DS action, like your true self was shining through or something). Tho I think you kind of already have that justification in K2. We know that the PC did something bad, other then fighting along side Revan but we don't know what exactly it is, and he was banished for it. Hence we don't start out as Mr.Clean. We know that this guy seemingly dipped into uber no-no land once, he can do it again.

[jedipodo]

That's an example of the fact that if there are no Jedi anymore the DS is unemployed and bored.

[Laozi]

I have never played DS in Kotor. I started to but halfway through Taris I just was tired of always bullying everyone and how easy everything became. I don't really know if changing this will make the DS option more viable, but its definitely worth a try

[Planar Jedi]

To truly make the dark equal to light in a game is not possible. only a linear game could do so. But the game should contain some things that give extra power to the ds, like absorbing the powers of a long dead sith lord.few people would resist that

[Ivan the Terrible]

I know Obsidian has promised that things like this has been fixed, but who else here sees the way I see?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. In fact, KOTOR 1 makes absolutely no sense if you play straight Dark Side; your companions watch you murder, torture, and brutalize people the entire game, and yet they all still act like you're interested in saving the Republic from the Sith? The Jedi Council watches you wreck havoc across the surface of Dantooine, and yet just lets you go ahead on a mission on which the fate of the Galaxy hinges?

 

No. I always play my Dark Side games as Light Side up until the revelation of your true identity, after which I use that (and Korriban, my usual fourth planet) as a jumping-off point for a headlong plunge into the Dark Side (after all, the Jedi Council destroyed my life!) That way, the surprise of your eventual betrayal is a little more believable.

 

Hopefully, KOTOR II will allow us to avoid jumping through so many hoops just to play a believable Dark Side game.

[Judge Hades]

Besides, LucasArts and WotC don't have the stomach for real evil.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Besides, LucasArts and WotC don't have the stomach for real evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about LucasArts and WotC, but the 'evil' game for Bioware games has historically been almost universally lame. They almost always hinge it on a plotline for which an evil character wouldn't give a damn, and your options for being 'evil' usually just amount to being a petty jerk who steals credits and says mean things to people. Disappointing, to say the least.

[Laozi]

Besides, LucasArts and WotC don't have the stomach for real evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about LucasArts and WotC, but the 'evil' game for Bioware games has historically been almost universally lame. They almost always hinge it on a plotline for which an evil character wouldn't give a damn, and your options for being 'evil' usually just amount to being a petty jerk who steals credits and says mean things to people. Disappointing, to say the least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats because the true essence of evil is difficult to depict. Its not like most people who are evil (ie corp. heads, dictators, George Bush, music execs, anyone working in marketing) one day decide, "Hey you know what, I think I'm going to be evil for now on."

 

Evil usually has something tied to it that makes you deceive yourself as to ignore the affect it has on other people.

[Judge Hades]

That is one way, but their are more potent forms of evil. There is the Charles Manson/Son of Sam evil one can play. A Dark Jedi who hunts and kills his prey, as they are animals, then feeds upon the flesh of his kills. Capturing force adept young children, torturing them to gain the dark side corruption power then turn those who survive the tortures as instruments of death and destruction.

 

I can think of more evil and twisted things to do in a game, but I know Obsidian, WotC, and LucasArts will never in a million years do. Its the Bully evil and nothing else.

[Masamune]

I know you guys we do need a better reason to play DS, but if you think back to JK: Dark Forces 2 you will see how far Kotor 1 and games in general have improved. I remember it now kyle could turn DS by killing mindless droids and innocent people who had no impact on the story what so ever, great fun.

[Tyrell]

There is temptation to be DS... I mean who wouldn't want to be apart of the strongest power in the galaxy and cruch the last jedi remaining. DS temptations are about greed and power which is why people often take that route. And your right there is the LS temptation of being in a great struggle and outnumbered wherever you go. There is temptation on both sides... and perhaps where temptation lacks, curiosity leads the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right, there is and was temptation to be DS in KOTOR cause you could be the ruler of the Galaxy to Darth Vader or Darth Sidous type so to speak. But it was how you went about it that wasn't so tempting and stuff. Like I keep referring back to stealing credits, not helping those in need, and lying. Those are just basic simple things. Things should have been more deeper like the Manaan example I sold you all about when you had to choice to poison the water or blow up the generator what was what I like. Killing Juhani and not bringing her back to the light, another great way to be DS. Being power greedy and killing Yuthura and Uthar on Korriban another great way to be DS. So KOTOR did have what I and everyone else wanted out of the DS....the problem was it just wasn't enough it was only there at certain points. All the other DS points came from doing bully work. There was nothing bullyish about killing Uthar and Yuthura, poisoning the water, and killing Juhani. They were just all evil/easier way/power hungry deeds which is way ALL DS things should have been done. Not the bully way like helping kids on Taris make fun of a Alien species. No mater how evil Vader and Sidious ever was they never had to make fun of Aliens to prove themselves of being evil. Get what I'm saying now?

[Rosbjerg]

That is one way, but their are more potent forms of evil.  There is the Charles Manson/Son of Sam evil one can play.  A Dark Jedi who hunts and kills his prey, as they are animals, then feeds upon the flesh of his kills.  Capturing force adept young children, torturing them to gain the dark side corruption power then turn those who survive the tortures as instruments of death and destruction.

 

I can think of more evil and twisted things to do in a game, but I know Obsidian, WotC, and LucasArts will never in a million years do.  Its the Bully evil and nothing else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

now that would be stomach turning evil actually .. but more true DS .. although I think few people would be comfortable playing that kind of twisted sick! and I fear those who will .. not to mention that it would be banned in most countries!

[Laozi]

That is one way, but their are more potent forms of evil.  There is the Charles Manson/Son of Sam evil one can play.  A Dark Jedi who hunts and kills his prey, as they are animals, then feeds upon the flesh of his kills.  Capturing force adept young children, torturing them to gain the dark side corruption power then turn those who survive the tortures as instruments of death and destruction.

 

I can think of more evil and twisted things to do in a game, but I know Obsidian, WotC, and LucasArts will never in a million years do.  Its the Bully evil and nothing else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think you're overestimating Charles Mansion's success. I know G&R did one of his songs but that was the pathedic helping the more pathedic. True evil, yes probaly, truely dangerous, eh to a point, limited.........surely.

 

But I would think the success of M&M and things of that nature is quite more consequential to the people. He is sort of a "sheep in wolves clothing" pretending to be angst, but at the same time making millions for MTV and corp. record labels. Most of his following wouldn't understand a real issue or threat if it sold them there new gold chain, but feel like they're clued in

 

 

tricking the masses is where the real power lies, not killing them

[Masamune]

That is one way, but their are more potent forms of evil. There is the Charles Manson/Son of Sam evil one can play. A Dark Jedi who hunts and kills his prey, as they are animals, then feeds upon the flesh of his kills. Capturing force adept young children, torturing them to gain the dark side corruption power then turn those who survive the tortures as instruments of death and destruction.[/quote

 

I am a little new but I think hades might need to seek professional "help"

 

Just kidding.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Thats because the true essence of evil is difficult to depict. Its not like most people who are evil (ie corp. heads, dictators, George Bush, music execs, anyone working in marketing) one day decide, "Hey you know what, I think I'm going to be evil for now on."

 

Evil usually has something tied to it that makes you deceive yourself as to ignore the affect it has on other people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Evil may be difficult to depict, but evil in Bioware games almost always comes off as if they didn't even try.

 

Case in point: think Baldur's Gate 2. The very beginning of the game, you have to rescue Jaheira from a cage after being freed by Imoen. I remember thinking my first time through, 'ok, this is the part where the game will let me choose if I played the game as a good guy or bad guy based on my conversation choices.'

 

Nope. Jaheira goes on to relate your history, in which you and she have been acting as heroes and saving kittens from trees for the entirety of the first game. You have the option to be a jerk, but in that case she just acts like you're displaying totally new behavior and says you've 'turned' as she feared you might.

 

Then, virtually every 'evil' conversation choice in the game amounts to little more than 'HEY, GUYS! LOOK HOW MEAN I AM!'

 

What I really want to see is evil along the lines of Planescape: Torment; evil in which you can say the exact same thing as what the 'good guy' might say, but there's a little tag in front of the dialogue option identifying it as either 'Truth' or 'Lie' to make it clear when you're being a manipulative bastard. Capturing long-range Darth Sidious-style evil is nearly impossible in a game, but that, at least, would be a start.

[Judge Hades]

There is warrant in both. Such as the Hunter/Prey example, you as a Dark sider can feel the fear building to the point of tasting it. With the force you can feel the panic raging inside your victim and the pain he or she is going through to get away. Then as he or she believes that he or she is safe, you strike... slowly. Dismembering them, taunting them as they die, their fear reaching to the point of a tangible pressence, then you feed-fueling your dark side power.

 

Yum, that is evil.

 

There should be a more subtle evil which temptation resides in but lets not forget the twisted evil. They need love to. :D

[Ludozee]

Never knew there were so many evil people...

 

:ph34r:

[maia]

Well, IMHO, Bastila's fall didn't make much sense in KOTOR1. Yes, she was arrogant and ambitious, but she also hated Malak with all her soul. Therefore, her prattle about "being held" back at the Temple top, etc, seemed totally off for her character. And for the PC there was no temptation whatsoever. I mean, what did we get out of it? A vacuum mask?! Well, and "apprentice and lover" line .

 

But it could easily be done in much more plausible manner - if Bastila became convinced that the light side is just too weak to take Malak, that she had to go dark in order to kill him. Anger leads to hate and all that. And her argumentation with the PC should have taken the same track - that the PC wasn't strong enough to best Malak as a lightsider. And since _somebody_ had to take Malak and the 2 of you were Republic's last hope, she'd have to fight the PC if the PC refused to fall... so that she could remain near Malak and get her chance to off him. During that dialogue the PC should have gotten some kind of flashback from the evil past, and if s/he decided to fall, also get a unique dark power. Believable motivation, true temptation, all in one package .

And then on SF Bastila could have started talking about how Republic needed strong leadership, so that it didn't slide back into disaster and how Revan was uniquely qualified. From there it would have been an easy transition to the dark ending...

 

Now as to earlier DS actions - IMHO "desperate times require desperate measures" line has led to many of the darkest periods in RL. Why couldn't it have been played more in KOTOR? You could have explained your behaviour to the party NPCs or your victims that way and it would have been quite believable.

 

Also, there should have been more plainly annoying NPCs that would require patience of a saint not to off - like those drunks, the Gamorrans, etc. Thus you'd have a believable motivation for "short-tempered" characters to act in DS manner.

 

In KOTOR only on Korriban did I feel temptation to act DS on my first good playthrough - because the Sithlings were annoying and because I felt that the character had to "fit in". But of course in truth s/he hadn't, which was a disappointment. Oh, and with computer on Kashyyk - because I just tried to give it the answer it wanted.

 

Juhani was a great missed opportunity. You should have been able to talk her into joining you without turning her to the light. And then corrupted her further through her side quest.

 

Now re: temptations - gameplaywise I'd make it so that while in the end both ways were more or less equal in power, the DS often got small bonuses, while the LS seldom got large bonuses. The same with items. Here you'd have all that "quicker, easier, seductive", etc.

 

Also, I'd have a couple of situations where temptation to do evil would be big. For instance, a great item which is protected by a trap that irrevocably kills (scripted) first char that approaches it. Which NPC do you sacrifice to get it? Plot -important NPCs could be scripted to sense something and refuse.

 

Or as somebody proposed, a sidequest which you can only pass by succombing to anger.

 

In cases of good and evil factions, there should be some good reward for supporting the evil faction and they should mention it upfront, etc.

 

Basically, better implementation of the DS is very possible, IMHO, and I hope that Obsidian did something along those lines.

[Ivan the Terrible]

There should be a more subtle evil which temptation resides in but lets not forget the twisted evil.  They need love to.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The most deliciously evil act of such twistedness in the first game was getting Zaalbar to kill Mission.

 

If Bioware, of all companies, can add that to their game, then I have few fears for similiar acts of extreme, twisted evil in a sequel designed by the successor company to Black Isle.

[kumquatq3]

To truly make the dark equal to light in a game is not possible. only a linear game could do so.

 

K1 was pretty linear