George W. Bush Justifies Off-The-Cuff Bigotry

[Commissar]

[No superiority at all.  On the contrary, Christianity espouses that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and that Christians are "saved by grace through faith", meaning that even Christians are sinners (especially Christians, in my opinion), and that salvation comes not from being a good person, or following some law, but through an undeserved gift from God.  As far as Christianity "superior to everything else", how is that any different than Islam, Judaism, or virtually any other major world religion?  Each religion is predicated on the belief that this sole system is the route to everlasting life (or the cessation of individual life, in the case of Buddhism), and are, by their very nature, exclusive.  This is, in fact, no different than your expressed views on "the stupid", religious individuals, and Republicans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My views are hardly exclusive, mostly because I work on the basis of my own personal ideas rather than toeing a line, be it party or religion. I've worked for Republicans and I've worked for Democrats (and I don't mean in the 'my boss is a Democrat' sense, I mean in the campaign sense). My girlfriend of several years is fairly religious herself, and I don't berate her on a daily basis. I think it's mostly because she's rejected organized religion as asinine and the highest form of human arrogance, so perhaps I should say spiritual rather than religious.

 

And Christianity's not any different from Islam or Judaism or any of the others in declaring itself superior - though I've never met the Jewish version of an evangelical, I'll admit, and for that matter, no one's ever tried to convert me to Islam - but that's my problem with it right there. Why is Christianity right and the others wrong? To get more into it, why are Protestants right and Catholics wrong? You have absolutely no way of knowing that your religion is the one God would approve of; after all, millions and millions and millions of people believe just as fervently as you that they're right and you're wrong. And you presume to state that you understand the will of God? That anyone could? That pitiful little humans could understand what a supreme being wants out of us? And if you do, what kind of sick game is it all, then? We have to jump through hoops to reach heaven? He's supreme, why not just put us all there or put us all in hell or sort us all out by omniscience? Ah, free will, you say! Well, why? What is it, some sort of cosmic experiment to prove that some people will make right decisions and some will make wrong decisions?

 

That feeling you have about, for example, pagans or Wiccans or atheists? We have that about you. Everyone tied to one sect or another thinks that any other sect is full of whackjobs. Tolerance or forgiveness or hatred or apathy, it doesn't matter, you still think you're right and the other guy's wrong. Catholics think Protestants are wrong, and Protestants think Catholics are wrong. Sunnis think Shi'ites are wrong, and Shi'ites think Sunnis are wrong.

 

Tell me, then, why the hell you think any religion ought to have a place in a government that rules even one person with a different point of view?

[Nick_i_am]

So then by your logic you must condom ALL xians for the fact a few go into a abortion clinics and murder the doctor and his staff.

 

And you must think all jews are hateful and ignorant for the fact a few in the military have abused their power on the palistianians to the extreme of murder.

 

Its a very slippery slope when you dont treat everyone as a indivual and you just start lumping people togeather under titles because of a handful of idiots.

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I hate the fact that there are people who would wish me dead for the countary I live in. Just because it is the countary I live in.

 

But to date, I have never met a 'wiccan' who would delibtrately proclaim himself a 'witch' who wasn't an annoying egotistical 'holier than thou' jerk.

 

This isn't about wiccans, it is about people who pretend to be wiccans because they watch things like charmed and think it is cool, but if you are actually wiccan (for the 'right' reasons) they probably annoy the crap out of you too. It's cirtainly not the witchcraft part either, it is the people who proclaim themselves witches because they happen to find a weegie board in the attic. [/rant]

[Dakoth]

The Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with our current government;

 

Please tell me you didn't actually type that. While it contains no Laws it was an official document of our government, you know kinda like the Congress is an officialwing of our government.

 

The Constitution does, and the Constitution separates the church from the state

 

You are 100% right the constitution seperates the power base of the 2.

 

There is no compromise there.

 

The compromise comes in the form of the ability to swear an oath over a bible in court, the president being able to be sworn in over a bible, creator being added to the Declaration of Independance (once again an official document of the US government, even if it establishes no laws). You see even those early diests relised that hard line tactics would not win the day so compromise in small forms ended up wining them the battle didn't it. That is why we still to this day see small imprints of religion in our government even if some of the other examples I gave happened later.

 

As I have said in the past by all means let them add what they want. If they are the majority how can I as a minority expect to enforce my beliefs on the government, while we try to protect the minority it is still majority rules. All I want you to understand is it is a moot point since the chance would be that I would be Islamic then and not christian and would feel the same way any way. Now if I were an Islamic extrenest would we be having this conversation?

 

I know you are not attacking me but you really don't seem to understand what I have said either. In the simplest way I can I will try to word it for you. Not every religious refrence was seen as a nation killer which is why they compromised on certain issues, if they chose hardline tactics the revolution might have turned out very different. We also would not by any reason see the President sworn in over a bible, we would only affirm our intent to tell the truth not swear an oath, and creator would have been left out of the Declaration.

 

The reason I bring up what you said about the Declaration is because it is a document drafted by our government to tell the king of England we don't recogise his rule and are a self governing body. If they were hard line on absolutely no religion then it would not be in there.

 

I don't care that priests can not rule the government, frankly I think we are better off with out that. If you dissagree look at the farce the catholic church has become in the Chicago land area. What I think goes a little to far is the irrational hatred some atheisits have for religion. Is having a nativity scene on some ones desk that is in government; lets say a secretary such; a world ending thing?

 

 

Edit:

I mean nothing by this but I feel this is something that needs to be read by you. Maybe if we have any Islamic friends on the board they could better explain it.

 

I'll admit, and for that matter, no one's ever tried to convert me to Islam

 

I don't now for sure but isn't it also an Isalmic belief to bring more sheep into the fold?

Islam

Major world religion founded by Muhammad in Arabia in the early 7th century AD.

 

The Arabic word islam means

[Ludozee]

This isn't about wiccans, it is about people who pretend to be wiccans because they watch things like charmed and think it is cool, but if you are actually wiccan (for the 'right' reasons) they probably annoy the crap out of you too. It's cirtainly not the witchcraft part either, it is the people who proclaim themselves witches because they happen to find a weegie board in the attic. [/rant]

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Hey, Charmed is cool!

[Rhomal]

So then by your logic you must condom ALL xians for the fact a few go into a abortion clinics and murder the doctor and his staff.

 

And you must think all jews are hateful and ignorant for the fact a few in the military have abused their power on the palistianians to the extreme of murder.

 

Its a very slippery slope when you dont treat everyone as a indivual and you just start lumping people togeather under titles because of a handful of idiots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hate the fact that there are people who would wish me dead for the countary I live in. Just because it is the countary I live in.

 

But to date, I have never met a 'wiccan' who would delibtrately proclaim himself a 'witch' who wasn't an annoying egotistical 'holier than thou' jerk.

 

This isn't about wiccans, it is about people who pretend to be wiccans because they watch things like charmed and think it is cool, but if you are actually wiccan (for the 'right' reasons) they probably annoy the crap out of you too. It's cirtainly not the witchcraft part either, it is the people who proclaim themselves witches because they happen to find a weegie board in the attic. [/rant]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I truely feel sorry for you.

[Commissar]

The Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with our current government;

 

Please tell me you didn't actually type that. While it contains no Laws it was an official document of our government, you know kinda like the Congress is an officialwing of our government.

 

It was a document of our government? Really? I didn't think our government was established until the drafting and ratification of the Constitution. The government we now have is the one laid out by the Constitution, which was established and ratified long after the writing of the Declaration of Independence.

 

The compromise comes in the form of the ability to swear an oath over a bible in court, the president being able to be sworn in over a bible, creator being added to the Declaration of Independance (once again an official document of the US government, even if it establishes no laws).  You see even those early diests relised that hard line tactics would not win the day so compromise in small forms ended up wining them the battle didn't it.  That is why we still to this day see small imprints of religion in our government even if some of the other examples I gave happened later.

 

And the proof that it is not a part of our government and was never intended to be is that no one is required to swear to any god; no one is required to believe in any religion. There is no compromise in that. There is no trade-off along the lines of, "Well, as long as we don't have the church running the state, we'll let you have some religion in government." The swearing on Bibles and the use of the word "Creator" in the DoI have absolutely no legally binding status as far as the civil government is concerned. They mean nothing beyond their personal significance to whoever is swearing to whatever. They have no governmental significance whatsoever. These small imprints of government are not enforced by the Constitution or the law of the United States of America. At best, they're allowed under the First Amendment.

 

As I have said in the past by all means let them add what they want.  If they are the majority how can I as a minority expect to enforce my beliefs on the government, while we try to protect the minority it is still majority rules.  All I want you to understand is it is a moot point since the chance would be that I would be Islamic then and not christian and would feel the same way any way.  Now if I were an Islamic extrenest would we be having this conversation?

 

You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on the government; quote me once as saying that the government should come out with an official denouncement of Christianity as superstition or any such thing.

 

What I'm trying to do is keep both your beliefs and mine out of the government. Because the government is not a place for faith, but for reason. And you're damn right, the minority should be protected, and is required to be protected by law. This "majority rules" business ends precisely where the minority's personal freedoms begin. The rule of the majority, for example, should not legally be able to draft a law outlawing paganism, or Islam, or Judaism. The majority should not be able to force its beliefs on the minority simply because there happen to be more of them. I choose to see the Constitution as regarding all faiths as equally baseless; you could also argue that it sees all faiths as equally important. The moderate way of saying it would be to suggest that no religion is more important than any other as far as the law of the United States goes, and yet we've violated that, haven't we?

 

The reason I bring up what you said about the Declaration is because it is a document drafted by our government to tell the king of England we don't recogise his rule and are a self governing body.  If they were hard line on absolutely no religion then it would not be in there.

 

No, it was drafted before our government was established, as I've said.

 

Is having a nativity scene on some ones desk that is in government; lets say a secretary such; a world ending thing?

 

Nope, provided the Satan worshipper at the next desk can set up her shrine. And the Buddhist can have his statue. But we only ever hear about Christians trying to do this kind of thing, don't we? I'm curious why the hell Christians feel they need to make such displays of faith.

 

I mean if they believed in Jesus (only as a profit don't read anything into that) then they believe in converting unbelievers right?  Maybe one of our Muslim friends could explain it for us as I took that from the encylopedia Britanica.

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So from the fact that they recognize Jesus as a prophet of Allah, you somehow get that they're actively recruiting? I may have missed a step in the argument.

[Dakoth]

It was a document of our government? Really? I didn't think our government was established until the drafting and ratification of the Constitution. The government we now have is the one laid out by the Constitution, which was established and ratified long after the writing of the Declaration of Independence.

 

Gee thats quite interesting so it was a letter from one pen pal to another?

 

And the proof that it is not a part of our government and was never intended to be is that no one is required to swear to any god; no one is required to believe in any religion. There is no compromise in that. There is no trade-off along the lines of, "Well, as long as we don't have the church running the state, we'll let you have some religion in government." The swearing on Bibles and the use of the word "Creator" in the DoI have absolutely no legally binding status as far as the civil government is concerned. They mean nothing beyond their personal significance to whoever is swearing to whatever. They have no governmental significance whatsoever. These small imprints of government are not enforced by the Constitution or the law of the United States of America. At best, they're allowed under the First Amendment.

 

See there you go argueing you don't have to do those things and that is not the issue I put forth. They were allowed in that is what I have said, I also never said they were enforced or justified by the government. I simply bring up the fact they are there.

 

No, it was drafted before our government was established, as I've said.

 

By our provisional government, it was after all a document that said we intend to rule ourselves was it not? You can not rule yourself with out some form of government official or other wise, it was also drafted and signed by many of the same people that had a hand in the constitution wasn't it?

 

Nope, provided the Satan worshipper at the next desk can set up her shrine. And the Buddhist can have his statue. But we only ever hear about Christians trying to do this kind of thing, don't we? I'm curious why the hell Christians feel they need to make such displays of faith.

 

Why would they not be able to? The reason you only ever hear about christians is because they are normally the only ones under attack from the atheists. As far as your curiosuty, why do you care isn't it enought that those displays are protected by the constitution(excluding the government).

 

If they believe him as a prophet then they believe his word was from God. Didn't Jesus ask us to bring people to the faith so they might be saved? I thought that was why he traveled and preached so much after all.

[Nick_i_am]

I truely feel sorry for you.

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Thus perpetuating your own steriotype. Way to go you.

 

I thought 'maybe I have finally met an intelligent and mature wiccan witch who would put aside all those percived conceptions I had', but no, you acted like all the others.

 

Asking bush not to be biggoted then acting like that, and you wonder why so many people ARE biggoted against you. Truely you are a hero among men.

[Judge Hades]

Didn't Jesus ask us to bring people to the faith so they might be saved?  I thought that was why he traveled and preached so much after all.

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I don't really give a crap what Jesus asked you. That was 2000 years ago and no real empirical evidence that he actually said anything along those lines. The scriptures have been passed downed orally at first, then once put into written word they were translated and retranslated so much there is no accurate what Jesus said or actually meant so that is just a load of bull.

 

If you want to get into people's face and spread the word, be my guest, but don't get pissed if we get in your face and tell you to STFU.

[Arkan]

Just a question... Wasn't Jesus voted to be diefied by the RCC?

[Judge Hades]

Well, back in 400 CE at the Council of Chalcedon (msp?) the Holy Trinity ideology was made into doctrine which placed Jesus to be God as well as the Holy Spirit.

[Ludozee]

I have to say, at first this was an interesting topic, but then a lot of the participants started to attack eachother on their personality, spelling and reasoning. Sad how people completely ignore the essence of the topic sometimes...

 

:ph34r:

[Leferd]

Such is the nature of political and religious discourse.

[Rhomal]

I truely feel sorry for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thus perpetuating your own steriotype. Way to go you.

 

I thought 'maybe I have finally met an intelligent and mature wiccan witch who would put aside all those percived conceptions I had', but no, you acted like all the others.

 

Asking bush not to be biggoted then acting like that, and you wonder why so many people ARE biggoted against you. Truely you are a hero among men.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First off.. theres a difference between a pagan, witch and wiccan. And I never said I was a wiccan.

 

I have no idea how you beleive I have been 'biggoted' against you. I didnt realize feeling sorry for such a narrow and closed minded person was being a bigot. I thought it was compassion.. huh.. silly me.

[Nick_i_am]

In much the same way as 'I will pray for you' is 'compassion' and not 'holier than thou' in the least. gj @ you.

 

I'd rather have rationality than compassion when it comes from teh intarweb.

 

And my appologies, I was under the impression you said you were.

[Commissar]

If they believe him as a prophet then they believe his word was from God.  Didn't Jesus ask us to bring people to the faith so they might be saved?  I thought that was why he traveled and preached so much after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus didn't ask me to do ****. And in all probability he didn't ask you to do ****, either. I don't understand how you can have a faith where you consider roughly half of your holy book to be metaphor (at least, if you don't want to be branded an absolute nut for flying in the face of proven fact), disregard about twenty-five percent of the rest, and take the remaining quarter as undeniable truth. You call it metaphor or figurative when the Bible states that God created the earth in seven days, but do not question the virgin birth as absolute truth. You ignore all of the laws about when and where you can stone your wife/mother/son/brother, but eagerly devour the castigations against homosexuals. You cherry-pick what you like (and what still has not been proven false) from the Bible, and merrily go on your way without reference to the stuff you didn't pick. And that is the foundation for the way you view the world.

 

Hell, I could come up with a pretty damn good religion myself by doing the same thing with 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.

[Rhomal]

> You call it metaphor or figurative when the Bible states that God created the earth in seven days, but do not question the virgin birth as absolute truth. You ignore all of the laws about when and where you can stone your wife/mother/son/brother, but eagerly devour the castigations against homosexuals. You cherry-pick what you like (and what still has not been proven false) from the Bible, and merrily go on your way without reference to the stuff you didn't pick. And that is the foundation for the way you view the world.

 

This is EXACT issue with the bible and those that think its written in stone. Well said and a excellent point.

[TentamusDarkblade]

slightly off topic, did anyone catch the CNN presentation last night "The fight over Faith?"

 

it really scared the hell out of me. The evangelical christians are the most frightening thing i've ever seen. It's the worst of zealotry untempered by any form of tradition.

 

They don't believe that they have to waiver or compromise on any of their beliefs because "they're right" and the rest of us "are going to hell". And to hell with agreeing to disagree...

 

And the fact that they are the fastest growing religious group in the US, coupled with the political involvement they've shown in the last election, makes for a very unnerving glimpse at the possible future for all us non-born agains.

[Judge Hades]

The only way to stop them will be through the use of a gun. It will come to that.