Drakron Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I think they were trying to have fewer skill points to balance the game because of how few skills they had compared to the PnP version... Its no reason, they munchkinized the skill system because persuade skill really does not exist in the d20 system , we have "diplomacy", "intimidate" and "bluff". One of the BioWare designers is a munchkin, he wanted the best of worlds when comes to talking to NPCs and so we end with the munhkin "persuade" skill. They could have limited the number of skills points each class gains per level and instead they changed how skills points are gained, they round then down and made Int a dump stat since the almighty "persuade" skill is the only that matters and you gain at least one skill point per level, every other skill can simply be "level" by items with is another munchkin aspect of the game that is simply not present in the d20 rules, I know some items do give a very small skill boost but nothing close to the insanity of SW:KotOR items. Here's how that should've worked: the number of skill points would be limited. It would still make 18 in INT not comparable to 18 in any other stat, but it would be better than forcing you to spend a bunch of points just to get a bonus from the Intelligence stat. The system is fine as it is, in case of fewer skill simply cut classes skill point gain per level. BioWare just did a s***ty solution. Bring this up on the Bioware boards, and the dev's would get insulted. Maybe Gaider would make a smart-ass remark... great PR... *sigh* I did ... Bob reply was they worked very close with Wizards of the Cost and a lot of meaningless crap that appears to be a copy/paste job to anwer NwN questions since in no way is Wizards of the Cost represented in SW:KotOR game, there is no WotC logo or reference to then at all anyware in the game or the manual and the Star Wars d20 system is theirs, LucasArts does not own the mechanics part of that system ... just the setting.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 If Obsidian wants to do right on this game they should put in more skills, and most certainly break up persuade with Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff. More feats and force powers are nice, but I prefer more skills and good uses for them.
ShinIchiro Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I can see keeping the same number of skills. More important is the practicality of those skills. As long as we get something like 1-4 skill points per lvl the current number is fine.
Meshugger Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 If Obsidian wants to do right on this game they should put in more skills, and most certainly break up persuade with Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff. More feats and force powers are nice, but I prefer more skills and good uses for them. For once, i actually agree with you there. It would certainly give more character-customization and depth. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
EnderAndrew Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Drakon, I've seen a lot of computer games try to integrate PnP skills. To make each skill worthwhile, you have to have tons of opportunities to use the skill. That is easier to do with a smaller skill set. A smaller skill set makes each inidividual skill more worthwhile. PnP games are different from CRPGs. Accept it.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Well, whatever they choose to do, I hope it works! "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I not only hope it wourks I hope that it is plausbile and and builds a challenge to the game unlike the first KotOR.
Drakron Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Drakon, I've seen a lot of computer games try to integrate PnP skills. To make each skill worthwhile, you have to have tons of opportunities to use the skill. That is easier to do with a smaller skill set. A smaller skill set makes each inidividual skill more worthwhile. PnP games are different from CRPGs. Accept it. That bad design, there are a lot of skills in the d20 that are rarely used until we reach a certain point. Take a look at "knowledge:religion" skill that comes up once in a blue moon, until they get to be lv20+ were it becames part of the epic spellcasting system. We have skills in PnP that can be used or not, swim is one of those things that might show up or not. And last we have class skill progression, classes with high BAB and HP progression tend to get low skill progression, many times they take cross class skills because they simply end up with skill points they cannot assign to their class skill and classes with low BAB and HP tend to have a large number of class skills and skill points since their survival and contibution to the party is by their skills, as a fighter type can cleave his way the skill type can talk his way. The idea all skills have to be equal useful leads to stupid situations, it simply does not happen that way. Also its no excuse to BioWare lame skill system modification that turn Int in a dump system., they f***ed up badly even if they dont admit it. A lot of things could be made in, there is a gamble skill and we have Parzak, there is a Pilot skill and we have Swoop bikes , there is a Disguise Skill and we have disguises. Astrogate could be used to bypass Sith fighter attacks. Knowledge and Aparise could be used to indentigy items, Search could been used to find mines (Search is renamed on the game). Sense motive could be used to find out if someone was lying, Spot and Listen could be used to detect hiding enemies (Hide in SW:KotOR was a god damn joke). Craft could be used to create and upgrade items. What do we rule out Jump, Climbing and Swimming because the damn game engine is crap, there is no vertical axis.
Fardragon Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 In P&P creative players and GMs will find ways to work in obscure skills such as Knowledge: Mating habits of the Telosian Skunk Beatle. Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!!
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 In P&P creative players and GMs will find ways to work in obscure skills such as Knowledge: Mating habits of the Telosian Skunk Beatle. Man, are you just ignorant or just plain stupid? That would fall under the Knowledge: Life Sciences.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Well, whatever they do, it need to be well balanced. Get too detail-intensive and you scare off the novice gamer. Make it too simple and it's not interesting enough. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 If someone gets scared over a game then they are too weak willed to play the game.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 And yet I don't think they're trying to make games for the "strong-willed." They're trying to make something that will be enjoyed by the maximum number of people so that it will be purchased by the greatest number of people and make the most money. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I have no problem by that as long as the game is a good representation of the rules it is based on. KotOR2 is based on Star Wars PnP game and should reflect it instead of being a simplistic zero challenge hack job that KotOR1 was.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 I wouldn't quite say zero challenge, although it was rather easy. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 It was zero challenge. Stop being diplomatic about it.
Drakron Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 And yet I don't think they're trying to make games for the "strong-willed." They're trying to make something that will be enjoyed by the maximum number of people so that it will be purchased by the greatest number of people and make the most money. Shallow is the word you are looking. People that play RPGs know how to play RPGs, trying to make people that play FPS to start playing RPGs is not done by dumb down RPGs so it look and plays like a FPS. I dont expect driving games to play like GTA:VC, if GT becames like GTA in terms of car handling it will be a loss to GT fans.
Zabrak Maul Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 well, i dunno about ya'll but i liked knights of the old republic. i didnt have a problem with it.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Shallow is the word you are looking. People that play RPGs know how to play RPGs, trying to make people that play FPS to start playing RPGs is not done by dumb down RPGs so it look and plays like a FPS. I dont expect driving games to play like GTA:VC, if GT becames like GTA in terms of car handling it will be a loss to GT fans. I wouldn't say shallow. All companies are like that. The bottom line comes first. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 If the bottom line is to make unfun games then I will be taking my money elsewhere.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 I really don't think will have any problems entertaining the majoirty of gamers. It will be fun. No problems. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 No challenge equals no fun. If the majority of gamers want a zero challenge game then they are weak.
Drakron Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I really don't think will have any problems entertaining the majoirty of gamers. It will be fun. No problems. Yes because we love playing those 20 hours games with no replayability ... Not at the price they are selling then son ... not at the price they are selling then ...
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 No challenge equals no fun. If the majority of gamers want a zero challenge game then they are weak. Um, we are just talking about computer games here. Why do you even write on this forum if you're so opposed to KOTOR II? "You shall not pass!"
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