the greatest civilization in the history of the world

10 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

the greatest civilization in the history of the world

It must be such a disappointment for you to see all these issues going on in the US because you always had such respect and admiration for the US until Trump became president 

Its terrible when that happens, I hope you going to be okay 

What did Delacroix do to deserve that desecration?

russia?

bad

hong kong?

bad.

united states?

...

according to stephen miller, the above linked protest necessitates the involvement o' military troops?

they lie. the terrible part is that maga knows trump and his minions lie. there was never $2 trillion in waste, fraud and abuse... wasn't even hundreds of billions. how many fired fed workers, maga faithful, learned they were perpetrating waste, fraud and abuse? there is no white genocide happening in south africa. tariffs won't make americans rich. that hurricane were never predicted to reach alabama.

rubio and musk said nobody has died 'cause o' usaid cuts.

lies.

etc.

maga knows they lie, but 'cause is a polarized tribal thing where you gotta defend us from them, maga types willingly and beyond all reason, believe and promote the next lie. as a rando example, a person who perhaps knows trump is lying about tariffs and white genocide in south africa, nevertheless contorts themselves into knots trying to convince the rest o' us that trump and stephen miller is telling the truth about los angeles.

and again,

“Indeed we can think of no better example of the police power, which the Founders denied the national government and reposed in the states, than the suppression of violent crime and vindication of its victims.”-- J. Rehnquist, us v morrison (2000)

in 2020, numerous states asked for help from the national guard. converse, the federal government cannot send troops to california, oregon, washington or illinois to do ordinary law enforcement. however, those states is gonna need go through the courts to get relief, which is gonna take time... and perhaps when the Court final addresses the issue, some catastrophe sparked by the presence o' national guard troops will have already occurred, at which point trump will invoke the insurrection act.

regardless, even if there were chaos happening in los angeles, real widespread l007ing and property destruction, the fed couldn't send troops unless the states asked for aid. it's a law thing. it's the freaking Constitution. 

repeat: "ordinarily it is up to the states to decide whether to request fed troop assistance. is extreme few recent examples o' the fed not responding to state requests and sending in troops and the only post ww 2 examples we can think o' off hand is when Presidents sent troops to the south to protect school kids post brown v. board o' education, or when they ordered military to protect protesters from state governments related to mlk assassination, the aforementioned brown v. board and the civil rights act legislation."

another repeat for those curious refusing to pay attention... what trump is doing is unconstitutional, but illegal, immoral or unthinkable don't prevent him from doing it. why is this not penetrating? 

HA! Good Fun!

 Stephen Miller already thinks there's an invasion, rather surprised he's not calling for airstrikes yet.  

 

Edited June 8, 2025Jun 8 by Malcador

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

russia?

bad

hong kong?

bad.

united states?

...

according to stephen miller, the above linked protest necessitates the involvement o' military troops?

they lie. the terrible part is that maga knows trump and his minions lie. there was never $2 trillion in waste, fraud and abuse... wasn't even hundreds of billions. how many fired fed workers, maga faithful, learned they were perpetrating waste, fraud and abuse? there is no white genocide happening in south africa. tariffs won't make americans rich. that hurricane were never predicted to reach alabama.

rubio and musk said nobody has died 'cause o' usaid cuts.

lies.

etc.

maga knows they lie, but 'cause is a polarized tribal thing where you gotta defend us from them, maga types willingly and beyond all reason, believe and promote the next lie. as a rando example, a person who perhaps knows trump is lying about tariffs and white genocide in south africa, nevertheless contorts themselves into knots trying to convince the rest o' us that trump and stephen miller is telling the truth about los angeles.

and again,

“Indeed we can think of no better example of the police power, which the Founders denied the national government and reposed in the states, than the suppression of violent crime and vindication of its victims.”-- J. Rehnquist, us v morrison (2000)

in 2020, numerous states asked for help from the national guard. converse, the federal government cannot send troops to california, oregon, washington or illinois to do ordinary law enforcement. however, those states is gonna need go through the courts to get relief, which is gonna take time... and perhaps when the Court final addresses the issue, some catastrophe sparked by the presence o' national guard troops will have already occurred, at which point trump will invoke the insurrection act.

regardless, even if there were chaos happening in los angeles, real widespread l007ing and property destruction, the fed couldn't send troops unless the states asked for aid. it's a law thing. it's the freaking Constitution. 

repeat: "ordinarily it is up to the states to decide whether to request fed troop assistance. is extreme few recent examples o' the fed not responding to state requests and sending in troops and the only post ww 2 examples we can think o' off hand is when Presidents sent troops to the south to protect school kids post brown v. board o' education, or when they ordered military to protect protesters from state governments related to mlk assassination, the aforementioned brown v. board and the civil rights act legislation."

another repeat for those curious refusing to pay attention... what trump is doing is unconstitutional, but illegal, immoral or unthinkable don't prevent him from doing it. why is this not penetrating? 

HA! Good Fun!

 

there are 1 trillion waste in military

anyone try to cut it will be coup or suicide very quick

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Its not the first time the national guard has  been deployed, there were several examples  during  the worst violence in BLM protests 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/1/george-floyd-mapping-us-national-guard-deployments

Sometimes its necessary to restore law and order

" “As of Sunday, National Guard Soldiers and Airmen were activated in 24 states and the District of Columbia in response to civil disturbances, bringing the total number of Guard members on duty in support of their governors to nearly 62,000,” the guard announced in a statement. " 

Don't forget the BLM protests also happened under Trump. Part of a pattern. In this instance it's not widespread violence; it's in one city and the LAPD and state governor were already handling it. The latter has the ability to deploy the National Guard as needed. There was no need for the Executive branch to step into the foray.

5 hours ago, rjshae said:

Don't forget the BLM protests also happened under Trump. Part of a pattern. In this instance it's not widespread violence; it's in one city and the LAPD and state governor were already handling it. The latter has the ability to deploy the National Guard as needed. There was no need for the Executive branch to step into the foray.

It’s not a question of “need” as much as an opportunity to create violence , fear and chaos. Desirable effects for Trump when trying to dismantle the state and retain power indefinitely 

6 hours ago, rjshae said:

Don't forget the BLM protests also happened under Trump. Part of a pattern. In this instance it's not widespread violence; it's in one city and the LAPD and state governor were already handling it. The latter has the ability to deploy the National Guard as needed. There was no need for the Executive branch to step into the foray.

I want to have this debate because you make your points without all the grandstanding and political rhetoric that is common with these types of developments. I  also  dont want to defend Trumps comments because thats part of the whole political rhetoric common on both sides, I want to debate the facts around events in California 

I want to list some points  and then tell me if you agree or disagree with them ( Im going to summarize things but then the  link provides more details )

• All the violence we seeing in California started because of ICE trying to do there  legally mandated job, we can discuss the response later. If you look at the timelines in this link you can see how started and then how it escalated

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/06/09/la-protests-timeline-ice/84106969007/

• ICE started arresting illegal migrants from Friday in raids and some small protests started 
• California did commit to arresting  violent protestors and people were arrested and by Saturday daytime the protests had subsided more or less 
• But then on Saturday night the ICE centre was surrounded and violence resurfaced again and California state response was slow and thats why Trump deployed the national guard 

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/06/07/dhs-releases-statement-violent-rioters-assaulting-ice-officers-los-angeles-ca-and

" According to Homeland Security, on Saturday night, rioters surrounded the immigration services building and detention center, "assaulted ICE law enforcement officers, slashed tires, defaced buildings, and taxpayer-funded property. In response, Trump signed a presidential memorandum deploying "at least" 2,000 National Guard troops to Los Angeles." 

 

• And then Sunday the protests continued  again with more violence and anarchy

 

But all of this started because of ICE doing there job and my main question is " do you support ICE doing there job and arresting and deporting illegal migrants " 

And if you do support that is your concern more about how the National Guard was deployed by the Federal government and not the Governor of California 

And finally if any federal building is attacked when should the National Guard be deployed if the state security doesn't act quick enough?

 

 

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But then on Saturday night the ICE centre was surrounded and violence resurfaced again and California state response was slow and thats why Trump deployed the national guard 

Seems like the local cops did deal with it though, 4 pm on Saturday.  I am sure the DHS commandos were scared but they managed.

23 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Seems like the local cops did deal with it though, 4 pm on Saturday.  I am sure the DHS commandos were scared but they managed.

Im trying to have an opinion based on accurate timelines and yes the link does say 4pm but then the ICE centre was attacked that night

 

So the protests  were dealt with correctly by local law enforcement  from  4pm but then  the ICE centre specifically was attacked in the evening and that triggered the Trump response and the DHS comments which I posted 

But just to be clear I think Trump deployed the National Guard largely  for political reasons, to undermine the Dems and to show he is serious about the deportations but he also rushed it. He didnt have to act so quickly if you think of the timelines, give state authorities the chance to address the violence. Its almost impossible to believe he would have used the NG in a GOP controlled state so soon 

Thats one issue but the main issue  for me is ICE has to be able to do there job so the real question is "what happens in the future in a state like California where ICE is very unpopular but they have large numbers of illegal migrants " ?

Will we see these protests again and how does the state and Federal government work together?

 

 

"illegal migrants" is such a loaded term. Immigration in the US is a mess because we change the laws and procedures all the time. It's a broken system, and instead of fixing the system, the Trump administration is going after the victims of the broken system. 

So yeah, ICE is in the wrong.

fearmonger about migrant was always suppose to be a tool to keep their labor cheap

but now idiot growing up constantly soaked in this kind of nonsense actually believed it and driving away cheap labor

their hysteria was never going to have a point

10 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But all of this started because of ICE doing [their] job and my main question is " do you support ICE doing [their] job and arresting and deporting illegal migrants " 

To focus down on this, yes I do support ICE doing their job legally. It's the legal aspect that makes this all a bit dodgy (under DJT). When you push the boundaries of what is legal, more mistakes get made, rights are violated, and people here legally get deported.

 

Ah, cops. I am sure they'll argue they were legally permitted to do it though. 

 

Edited June 9, 2025Jun 9 by Malcador

5 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

"illegal migrants" is such a loaded term. Immigration in the US is a mess because we change the laws and procedures all the time. It's a broken system, and instead of fixing the system, the Trump administration is going after the victims of the broken system. 

So yeah, ICE is in the wrong.

You have had Democrat presidents for several terms since illegal migration became a global problem over  the last 20  years and I dont recall them coming up with anything different to alleviate the crisis in the US?

I hear the same thing in South Africa, activists and human rights lawyers say our entire migration system needs to change but they never come anything realistic except for completely unrealistic ideas like  " give illegal migrants papers so they can work legally and contribute towards the tax base " 

You might as well  just give them citizenship

And thats a terrible idea for us because we have such high unemployment and very  few jobs for South Africans as it is 

 

The  global   migration crisis faces the exact same problem, every country has limited resources and no country can just absorb millions of people from other countries, the entire migration  process needs to be managed and controlled 

And the only real solution is to reduce the reasons why people are leaving any country and that applies  specifically to failed states or very impoverished countries  where you find mass illegal migration 

But how does any government  fix another countries problems, thats the conundrum

 I am  interested in what suggestions you or anyone  else has to solve the migration crisis that several countries grapple with?

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to avoid a migration crisis you should do what we do: be islands 2000km away from other significant land masses. Simple and efficient.

(Does result in rather a lot of modern slavery from people importing skilled labourers like waiters, restaurant managers and liquor store workers for a substantial commission and paying less than minimum wage because no locals apply for the jobs (which are advertised in Hindi on the Times of India website). The irony being that the people mostly doing that are themselves immigrants. It is, of course, illegal but the result for a complainant is that they get sent back to India with their visa cancelled and minus the 'voluntary' commission, so there aren't many complaints.

They should do things the traditional kiwi way of paying $500 p/w to your indentured fruit pickers/ farm workers and charging them $400 p/w in rent for a bunk in a shared container; food additional.

Overall lesson: immigrants will always be exploited because they're easy to exploit and people are crappy even if you don't have an immigration crisis)

marine deployed at california

it should be obvious by now this situation is intentionally escalated into military occupation

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/white-house-struggles-find-qualified-people-willing-work-pete-hegseth-rcna211602

Who wouldn't want to work for an unqualified drunken kiss ass ? 

11 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

"illegal migrants" is such a loaded term. Immigration in the US is a mess because we change the laws and procedures all the time. It's a broken system, and instead of fixing the system, the Trump administration is going after the victims of the broken system. 

So yeah, ICE is in the wrong.

illegal immigration is actually a boon for the US, but no politician could ever admit it. illegals do jobs no american will do and they lower inflation in the process. illegals pay taxes without drawing on entitlements. illegals commit less crime than natural born citizens. etc. in 10 years when china is f'd 'cause o' their self-made population apocalypse, they is gonna need millions o' indian foreign workers if they don't wanna see their economy implode. most o' europe as well as japan and korea is facing similar issues but is gonna take a bit longer for the impacts to hit home-- not enough workers or consumers and an aging population bleeding a nation dry is a problem you address ten years ago. is a problem the US suffers from to a far less degree 'cause? illegal immigration. our population and birth rate ain't been dropping the same as most o' the eu... and far less severe than japan. and again, china is already complete f'd. the US never could have gotten increased birth rates, low-pay labor and an increased consumer base in the numbers needed through legal immigration. like it or not, and in spite o' some real short-term costs, illegal immigration is arguably one o' the USA's greatest advantages. 

however, illegal immigration is illegal... even if it ain't criminal. we pass laws through representative democratic process and it not matter if those laws is wise when we decide whether they is legal. being in the US undocumented, like were the case for elon musk, is illegal, and there is statutory punishments for such infractions. that said, there is a reason illegals do not get criminal trials for their deportations and it ain't cause they is non-citizens. illegal border crossing or overstaying a visa is a petty infraction, akin to a speeding ticket. 'cause the punishment don't include loss of liberty (imprisonment,) deportation proceedings fail to trigger sixth amendment protections... though try and explain to us how sending people to cecot avoids such; we dare anybody to try and explain. regardless, arresting those suspected o' illegal immigration is not illegal. the current ice efforts is clear designed to provoke and inflame, but the arrests themselves...

maybe what ice is doing is wrong, but it ain't illegal.

trump sending troops to california is illegal and wrong.

btw, the government lies and misleads. a 413% increase in assault o' ice agents? why not say what were the assaults and how many were assaulted? notice the government didn't claim any ice agents were seriously injured yes? if a child grabs the sleeve o' an ice agent while the agent is arresting the child's parent, that counts as an assault. if a citizen husband attempts to embrace his undocumented wife while she is being arrested and he happens to touch an ice agent in the process, that is an assault. and btw, if there were a 500% increase in la ice arrests over the course o' the past week, then how much would you expect assaults on ice agents to increase over the same period if all other factors remained constant?

of the 118 undocumented rounded up by ice at the time o' their press release, only five were gang members, and am gonna remind people that being a gang member is not in and of itself illegal. please note that a handful o' crimes committed by those apprehended by ice is listed, but nowhere does it mention how many people had criminal records. one? why not say the number of criminals unless it is a comical small number?

so yeah, this ice operation were performative and likely meant to help with trump's sagging poll numbers, 'cause the truth o' the matter is that trump's base, and many other americans, approve o' bad things happening to the undocumented. however, what ice did, rounding up undocumented individuals, were not illegal.

the thing is, if more democrats had gotten off their asses and voted in 2024, we wouldn't be in this situation in 2025, so am actual a bit less sympathetic than you might suspect.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/exploring-why-more-latinos-voted-for-trump-and-what-it-means-for-future-elections

Geoff Bennett:

There are people of faith who would wonder how you are able to look beyond Donald Trump's moral character, the felony convictions, the divisive rhetoric and cast your vote in support.

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez:

It's a legitimate question and something we have to discuss.

And I put that right next to abortion demand without any restrictions, even in the late term, late-term abortion here versus character, tweets, rhetoric, personality and bravado. So I have to measure this. I have to measure government coming and intruding in how I raise my children versus character, rhetoric, tweets and bravado.

So we measured it. Latinos measured it and went like — and many Latinos went, like, man, we don't like the guy. Many Latinos say, we don't like the guy, but his policies were amazing and his policies lined up with what I believe. And the Democratic Party sounds good, but the policies are counterintuitive to who I am as a Latino and as a Christian.

Now, there may be, there may be an opportunity here. Let me explain. The policy of mass deportations, that policy is — it is controversial. I don't deny it. And what our understanding is mass deportations will take place regarding targeting primarily criminals, those that are involved in the terrorist activities.

(Crosstalk)

Geoff Bennett:

Potentially, but the scale of what the Trump campaign has promised would likely extend beyond those undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes.

So the question is, what does that mean for Latinos who live in mixed-status families or who are here legally, but are profiled and caught up in what could be this mass deportation effort?

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez:

Now, I could tell you right here to your audience, I would be the first one vociferously protesting if the administration comes after families that have been here 20, 25, 30 years, 15 years, God-fearing, hardworking, not living off government subsidies, whose children were born here.

I will be the first one protesting, because that's not my understanding. And I can't disclose my conversations with the president-elect's team, but I can tell you that there have been multiple assurances from very powerful individuals to yours truly directly, regarding the targeted audiences. And we're talking about those involved in nefarious activities.

So my understanding is that good, God-fearing, hardworking families that have been here for years, for years and are not living off government subsidies and whose children were born here, these families will not be targeted. I hope and pray that they adhere to — adhere to what they conveyed with yours truly regarding the mass deportation efforts.

...

at least on twitter, we don't see mr. rodriguez's promised protests. a quick search reveals no news articles where he complains he were misled. nothing.

most o' the protesters ain't complaining about the Constitutional issue which worries Gromnir. we know trump sent troops with the intent o' provoking a greater response and we see this move as yet another step towards overt authoritarianism, but that ain't what has people in the streets of la.

ultimately, people are protesting 'cause when trump said he were gonna do mass deportations, not enough americans listened or believed. 

we dislike trump and his policies, but the folks we blame most for our current situation is all the democrats and independents who didn't vote, or who voted for trump 'cause o' the price of eggs, trans athletes and vaccine mandates... mandates which were imposed at the state and local level for chrissakes.

Stephen Miller has set his sights on new targets to find undocumented migrants: Home Depot and 7-Eleven

so ice goes out and legal does the bidding o' stephen miller who is implementing the policy goals trump promised during his campaign. for those only motivated to protest now, we got less sympathy.

but again, sending troops to california is actual a different issue for us than the ice roundups. trump is clear exceeding authority granted to him by the Constitution, unless scotus once again goes ahead and invents a new trump authority which did not exist for the past 238 years. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

15 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

illegal immigration is actually a boon for the US, but no politician could ever admit it. illegals do jobs no american will do and they lower inflation in the process. illegals pay taxes without drawing on entitlements. illegals commit less crime than natural born citizens. etc. in 10 years when china is f'd 'cause o' their self-made population apocalypse, they is gonna need millions o' indian foreign workers if they don't wanna see their economy implode. most o' europe as well as japan and korea is facing similar issues but is gonna take a bit longer for the impacts to hit home-- not enough workers or consumers and an aging population bleeding a nation dry is a problem you address ten years ago. is a problem the US suffers from to a far less degree 'cause? illegal immigration. our population and birth rate ain't been dropping the same as most o' the eu... and far less severe than japan. and again, china is already complete f'd. the US never could have gotten increased birth rates, low-pay labor and an increased consumer base in the numbers needed through legal immigration. like it or not, and in spite o' some real short-term costs, illegal immigration is arguably one o' the USA's greatest advantages. 

however, illegal immigration is illegal... even if it ain't criminal. we pass laws through representative democratic process and it not matter if those laws is wise when we decide whether they is legal. being in the US undocumented, like were the case for elon musk, is illegal, and there is statutory punishments for such infractions. that said, there is a reason illegals do not get criminal trials for their deportations and it ain't cause they is non-citizens. illegal border crossing or overstaying a visa is a petty infraction, akin to a speeding ticket. 'cause the punishment don't include loss of liberty (imprisonment,) deportation proceedings fail to trigger sixth amendment protections... though try and explain to us how sending people to cecot avoids such; we dare anybody to try and explain. regardless, arresting those suspected o' illegal immigration is not illegal. the current ice efforts is clear designed to provoke and inflame, but the arrests themselves...

maybe what ice is doing is wrong, but it ain't illegal.

trump sending troops to california is illegal and wrong.

btw, the government lies and misleads. a 413% increase in assault o' ice agents? why not say what were the assaults and how many were assaulted? notice the government didn't claim any ice agents were seriously injured yes? if a child grabs the sleeve o' an ice agent while the agent is arresting the child's parent, that counts as an assault. if a citizen husband attempts to embrace his undocumented wife while she is being arrested and he happens to touch an ice agent in the process, that is an assault. and btw, if there were a 500% increase in la ice arrests over the course o' the past week, then how much would you expect assaults on ice agents to increase over the same period if all other factors remained constant?

of the 118 undocumented rounded up by ice at the time o' their press release, only five were gang members, and am gonna remind people that being a gang member is not in and of itself illegal. please note that a handful o' crimes committed by those apprehended by ice is listed, but nowhere does it mention how many people had criminal records. one? why not say the number of criminals unless it is a comical small number?

so yeah, this ice operation were performative and likely meant to help with trump's sagging poll numbers, 'cause the truth o' the matter is that trump's base, and many other americans, approve o' bad things happening to the undocumented. however, what ice did, rounding up undocumented individuals, were not illegal.

the thing is, if more democrats had gotten off their asses and voted in 2024, we wouldn't be in this situation in 2025, so am actual a bit less sympathetic than you might suspect.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/exploring-why-more-latinos-voted-for-trump-and-what-it-means-for-future-elections

Geoff Bennett:

There are people of faith who would wonder how you are able to look beyond Donald Trump's moral character, the felony convictions, the divisive rhetoric and cast your vote in support.

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez:

It's a legitimate question and something we have to discuss.

And I put that right next to abortion demand without any restrictions, even in the late term, late-term abortion here versus character, tweets, rhetoric, personality and bravado. So I have to measure this. I have to measure government coming and intruding in how I raise my children versus character, rhetoric, tweets and bravado.

So we measured it. Latinos measured it and went like — and many Latinos went, like, man, we don't like the guy. Many Latinos say, we don't like the guy, but his policies were amazing and his policies lined up with what I believe. And the Democratic Party sounds good, but the policies are counterintuitive to who I am as a Latino and as a Christian.

Now, there may be, there may be an opportunity here. Let me explain. The policy of mass deportations, that policy is — it is controversial. I don't deny it. And what our understanding is mass deportations will take place regarding targeting primarily criminals, those that are involved in the terrorist activities.

(Crosstalk)

Geoff Bennett:

Potentially, but the scale of what the Trump campaign has promised would likely extend beyond those undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes.

So the question is, what does that mean for Latinos who live in mixed-status families or who are here legally, but are profiled and caught up in what could be this mass deportation effort?

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez:

Now, I could tell you right here to your audience, I would be the first one vociferously protesting if the administration comes after families that have been here 20, 25, 30 years, 15 years, God-fearing, hardworking, not living off government subsidies, whose children were born here.

I will be the first one protesting, because that's not my understanding. And I can't disclose my conversations with the president-elect's team, but I can tell you that there have been multiple assurances from very powerful individuals to yours truly directly, regarding the targeted audiences. And we're talking about those involved in nefarious activities.

So my understanding is that good, God-fearing, hardworking families that have been here for years, for years and are not living off government subsidies and whose children were born here, these families will not be targeted. I hope and pray that they adhere to — adhere to what they conveyed with yours truly regarding the mass deportation efforts.

...

at least on twitter, we don't see mr. rodriguez's promised protests. a quick search reveals no news articles where he complains he were misled. nothing.

most o' the protesters ain't complaining about the Constitutional issue which worries Gromnir. we know trump sent troops with the intent o' provoking a greater response and we see this move as yet another step towards overt authoritarianism, but that ain't what has people in the streets of la.

ultimately, people are protesting 'cause when trump said he were gonna do mass deportations, not enough americans listened or believed. 

we dislike trump and his policies, but the folks we blame most for our current situation is all the democrats and independents who didn't vote, or who voted for trump 'cause o' the price of eggs, trans athletes and vaccine mandates... mandates which were imposed at the state and local level for chrissakes.

Stephen Miller has set his sights on new targets to find undocumented migrants: Home Depot and 7-Eleven

so ice goes out and legal does the bidding o' stephen miller who is implementing the policy goals trump promised during his campaign. for those only motivated to protest now, we got less sympathy.

but again, sending troops to california is actual a different issue for us than the ice roundups. trump is clear exceeding authority granted to him by the Constitution, unless scotus once again goes ahead and invents a new trump authority which did not exist for the past 238 years. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

everything run on cheap labor

legality was always cowardly excuses for exploitation

used to be legal to own people and send children into mine shaft

something being law now doesn't mean it should be law

1 hour ago, uuuhhii said:

 

everything run on cheap labor

legality was always cowardly excuses for exploitation

used to be legal to own people and send children into mine shaft

something being law now doesn't mean it should be law

hogwash... other than the last point which is not only what we already stated 'bove, but has repeated ad nauseum-- legal ≠ right.

however,

"the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

state of nature don't have laws and that is where those with power is able to most egregious exploit the weak. sure, the rich is best positioned to exploit law, but too many people have the situation reversed. is not the powerful who need law but rather is the weak. legal is indeed often an excuse for cowardly exploitation, but absence o' law makes such exploitation assured save in extreme small scale scenarios such as family and tribal.

am also observing how the US has most prospered as we get further removed from a reliance on cheap labor. is bass ackwards and self defeating that we still rely so much on many kinds o' labor as automation shoulda' replaced most such jobs by now. tell 1980s Gromnir we would still have living people working in US auto factories in 2025 other than to maintain the robots and we woulda handed you a copy o' megatrends. this country, and most western economies, has prospered as they moved towards high skilled and service-based. counter-intuitive, as "labor" needs has become increasing expensive, American fortunes has accelerated. also, the recent dock worker strike where the union strong-armed management into promising to not implement automation were in addition to being luddite asinine, it went a long way towards undermining the "exploitation" narrative.

is a relative small % o' the US economy which genuine requires cheap labor, but that small % is nevertheless vital. am not suggesting amazon treats its workers fair or that manufacturing management in general isn't trying to maximize their quarterly report earnings by cutting corners, but some schnook who read marx for the first time in 2020 is in for rude reality shocks and the world economy ain't what it was... and never will be again.   

we worked roofing in the early 90s and back then there were white guys on the roof with us. today?

even so, is many important jobs which functional require illegal immigrants, 'cause is no way to keep numerous industries running without people doing jobs americans simply will not do. food processing. residential construction. agriculture. etc.

and yeah, tiny screw jobs need cheap foreign labor... and the 2025 US don't even have the capacity to do such jobs regardless o' a dollar amount, which is why the US shoulda' subsidized apple to develop such infrastructure in mexico instead o' china. if the US had spent money on developing mexico in partnership with companies like apple and others who instead spent money in china, many o' today's problems wouldn't exist... including the immigration issues.

regardless,

*insert eye roll here*

should add to our bruce, sharp_one, comrade yellow, dark priest and lexx list. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps if it makes you feel better, in ten years when the china labor/population situation gets real for people, am suspecting the global economy is in for some rough times, and unskilled/low-skilled labor is sudden gonna be in a historic strong position if only temporarily. so, huzzah! maybe in a decade the workers o' the world will finally have a chance to unite, but we wouldn't count on it even then as the demand for automation and ai will finally overcome to perpetual stoopid which is the nostalgia fantasy o' the highly paid US (or any other western economy) factory worker. 

Edited June 10, 2025Jun 10 by Gromnir

double-post apologies, but seeing as the previous post exhibits our typical lack of brevity, we didn't want this link to get lost/buried.

Former DOGE engineer says federal waste and fraud were 'relatively nonexistent'

I, probably stupidly, was asked by a — not even a journalist but a writer who just has a blog about my business going open-source, and I spoke to him. He had a bunch of questions about me working for DOGE and I felt that Elon was pretty clear about how he wanted DOGE to be maximally transparent. That's something he said a lot in private and publicly. And so I felt, OK, cool, I'll take him at his word. I will be transparent and sort of "ask forgiveness not permission" sort of thing. I said mostly that the government was not as inefficient as I was expecting.

And then, my access got revoked pretty shortly after. I didn't get notified. I was basically ghosted and I just got an email notification that my access was no longer valid.

HA! Good Fun!

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

double-post apologies, but seeing as the previous post exhibits our typical lack of brevity, we didn't want this link to get lost/buried.

Former DOGE engineer says federal waste and fraud were 'relatively nonexistent'

I, probably stupidly, was asked by a — not even a journalist but a writer who just has a blog about my business going open-source, and I spoke to him. He had a bunch of questions about me working for DOGE and I felt that Elon was pretty clear about how he wanted DOGE to be maximally transparent. That's something he said a lot in private and publicly. And so I felt, OK, cool, I'll take him at his word. I will be transparent and sort of "ask forgiveness not permission" sort of thing. I said mostly that the government was not as inefficient as I was expecting.

And then, my access got revoked pretty shortly after. I didn't get notified. I was basically ghosted and I just got an email notification that my access was no longer valid.

HA! Good Fun!

I dont think this makes a very convincing argument about " federal waste being non-existent " because he was deployed to only one department as part of DOGE and that was Department of Veterans Affairs according to the link?

Its amazing that any news media source can make such a generalized statement based on  the experience of DOGE in a single department 

Saying all that Musks initial opinion of the Federal government being rampant with inefficiency and corruption was clearly  exaggerated and the task of easily restructuring the Federal government  to " save $2 trillion " was both underestimated and inaccurate 

But we know this because of the overall cost cutting and how the initial DOGE  outcome  kept dropping and it ended on $150 billion

And thats the data and the facts and its believable. But this article doesn't make a very convincing headline point 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2025Jun 10 by BruceVC

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

And I put that right next to abortion demand without any restrictions, even in the late term, late-term abortion here versus character, tweets, rhetoric, personality and bravado. So I have to measure this. I have to measure government coming and intruding in how I raise my children versus character, rhetoric, tweets and bravado.

 

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

I will be the first one protesting, because that's not my understanding. And I can't disclose my conversations with the president-elect's team, but I can tell you that there have been multiple assurances from very powerful individuals to yours truly directly, regarding the targeted audiences. And we're talking about those involved in nefarious activities.

I love Rev. Rodriguez' willful ignorance to justify ignoring character, rhetoric and personality when accepting what someone says on face value here.