Gaza - conflict, war, land, water rights, bad colonional legacies...

[melkathi]

Mind, the information comes from Israel, which has no good track record with truth and comes conveniently right after the court ordered them to let aid in.

 

A certain level of involvement between any aid agency and local groups in any position of authority is always given. You can't distribute aid without the authorities being aware. So obviously UNWRA will have had dealings with Hamas. But that this suddenly means UN personnel were involved in the assault is a stretch.

 

Israel made up a story of beheaded babies.

They made up a story of Holocaust survivors killed in the attack.

They made up a story of families burned alive.

They made up numbers.

And now that Israeli journalists are disproving one story after another and are raising questions about the Hannibal directive, Israel suddenly has information about UN staff having participated in the 7 October attack, to change the narrative and ensure people will starve to death.

If they had information, they had it for months and didn't reveal it?

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

 

It is also interesting how people keep saying "over 1200" when the IDF has revised a while ago the number to below 1200. (1173 if I remember correctly, which is still near enough to say 1200 for ease, but not "over")

[Zoraptor]

To be precise it's 12 out of more than 30000 UNRWA workers that were accused by Israel.

Those pulling UNRWA funding are a who's who of Israel's enablers, making a coordinated effort to drown out the ICJ ruling and provide cover for Israel to continue its policies, nothing more or less. Just a shame they'll never be dragged before a court for it.

Not quite Gaza but definitely related- no matter how much some would like to pretend it's wholly separate- 3 US soldiers killed near the At-Tanf military base. US seems to be insisting they were on the Jordanian side (as the legality of their presence in Syria is... tenuous at best under international law) and the Jordanians that they were on the Syrian side.

 

[Malcador]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/unrwa-funding-pause-canada-reaction-1.7097515

Probably our next PM with this vote winner.

Apparently 10% have links to terrorists.  Although familial links count here, which is an interesting card to play

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36

Edited January 29 by Malcador

[Elerond]

UNCCT works as well as all of the UN's institutions

This is quite similar scandal as 2005 expose about UN peacekeepers, which revealed that they had been raping, sexually abusing women and children and forcing them to prostitution for their own profit for years. Result of that scandal was no one was punished and now about two decades later peacekeepers still do same.

https://press.un.org/en/2006/sc8649.doc.htm

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-suspends-some-peacekeepers-congo-denounces-sexual-abuse-2023-10-12/

[HoonDing]

I'm 30% sure Amerika would never kill their own people to instigate a war.

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Elerond said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-suspends-some-peacekeepers-congo-denounces-sexual-abuse-2023-10-12/

8 accused out of 15,000? Article says 17000 which is even more, but 2000 are local employees.

Perhaps the west should send more than their (checks numbers) 20 peacekeepers to bring enlightenment to and help keep the uncivilised in line? Though of course the best way to make sure that you get precisely zero western peacekeepers is... to give the UN actual power to discipline/ prosecute soldiers under its command instead of it remaining with the contributor.

4 hours ago, Malcador said:

Apparently 10% have links to terrorists.  Although familial links count here, which is an interesting card to play

Considering 2.5% of Gaza's population is meant to be members of Hamas' armed wing according to Israel the UN has done a superlative job of vetting if they've managed only 10% with a familial link.

[uuuhhii]

4 hours ago, Elerond said:

UNCCT works as well as all of the UN's institutions

This is quite similar scandal as 2005 expose about UN peacekeepers, which revealed that they had been raping, sexually abusing women and children and forcing them to prostitution for their own profit for years. Result of that scandal was no one was punished and now about two decades later peacekeepers still do same.

https://press.un.org/en/2006/sc8649.doc.htm

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-suspends-some-peacekeepers-congo-denounces-sexual-abuse-2023-10-12/

did nation of the world cut funding for that

if not than the reason they cut funding now should be obvious

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Elerond said:

UNCCT works as well as all of the UN's institutions

This is quite similar scandal as 2005 expose about UN peacekeepers, which revealed that they had been raping, sexually abusing women and children and forcing them to prostitution for their own profit for years.

maybe just a little bit different as peacekeepers remain members o' their original national military or police force even if the UN has operational control. 

*shrug*

the following is not directed @Elerond

is always good to wait for info, but the fact the UN ain't denying allegations and they has public condemned the actions o' more than a handful o' staffers should give a few obsidian board champions o' the oppressed pause. and again, we are contemplating the possibility that multiple UN personal were somehow embroiled in a terrorist attack... is a fair bit different than one-off acts o' unforgivable moral turpitude. the defense is that so far less than two dozen un staffers has been fired? serious? if more than a dozen un personnel were having organized sex slave rings servicing un peacekeepers, then maybe we are getting a bit closer to analogous and is pretty terrible regardless. 

so ask self if the current kerfuffle were genuine analogous but it involved the malfeasance o' uk diplomats, cia agents, catholic priests or some other group you is justifiable suspicious 'bout. would you be defending all the innocent cia agents who the cia did not immediate fire when the story went public? would you be defending the larger organization who fired the folks caught doing something wrong?

is ok to admit the situation looks terrible. is ok to admit that given the lack o' un defense o' those staffers accused it is likely those folks did more than make mistakes or blunders. is ok to admit that oct 7 was pretty f'ing terrible and that if multiple unrwa employees were somehow involved...

you folks do realize that if you admit the situation looks absolute fubar for the UN, it doesn't mean you need sudden support israel, right?

when a similar situation arises and is handful o' bad israelis, US intelligence agents or new england patriots fans, are you gonna rush to defend? is a not zero chance some will recall and remind. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 29 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Considering 2.5% of Gaza's population is meant to be members of Hamas' armed wing according to Israel the UN has done a superlative job of vetting if they've managed only 10% with a familial link.

Ah my mistake, familial link is separate from the other link and that's about half, for what that's worth. - https://archive.is/1mZzW

"Two officials familiar with the intelligence said the Unrwa employees considered to have ties with militant groups were deemed to be “operatives,” indicating they took active part in the organization’s military or political framework. The report said 23% of Unrwa’s male employees had ties to Hamas, a higher percentage than the average of 15% for adult males in Gaza, indicating a higher politicization of the agency than the population at large."

Shame these officials weren't more specific, I guess.  I am skeptical of  Israeli intelligence marking a Palestinian an 'operative'.

 

[Zoraptor]

Most interesting thing about the whole situation:

• accusations against 12 UNRWA members out of 30,000 from Israel --> outrage, cut off the funding!
• Israel found to be plausibly committing genocide (ICJ cannot issue instructions if it's not plausible) --> keep up the funding!

Hope that Israeli Intelligence was better than the guard roster that was a calendar plus the command bunker under Al Shifa, the missiles launched from two spots 6km apart etc. Not to mention how fantastic their signals intelligence is, now. Shame it wasn't so awesome on October 6th though, eh?

Would be good if South Africa adds all the countries contributing to that plausible genocide by cutting aid a few days after that judgement right as all the people on the ground say shortage is turning to starvation to their ICJ action. Feel free to send the Black Helicopters to pick up our craven bootlicker and utter oxygen thief Chris Luxon in particular.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

maybe just a little bit different as peacekeepers remain members o' their original national military or police force even if the UN has operational control. 

*shrug*

the following is not directed @Elerond

is always good to wait for info, but the fact the UN ain't denying allegations and they has public condemned the actions o' more than a handful o' staffers should give a few obsidian board champions o' the oppressed pause. and again, we are contemplating the possibility that multiple UN personal were somehow embroiled in a terrorist attack... is a fair bit different than one-off acts o' unforgivable moral turpitude. the defense is that so far less than two dozen un staffers has been fired? serious? if more than a dozen un personnel were having organized sex slave rings servicing un peacekeepers, then maybe we are getting a bit closer to analogous and is pretty terrible regardless. 

so ask self if the current kerfuffle were genuine analogous but it involved the malfeasance o' uk diplomats, cia agents, catholic priests or some other group you is justifiable suspicious 'bout. would you be defending all the innocent cia agents who the cia did not immediate fire when the story went public? would you be defending the larger organization who fired the folks caught doing something wrong?

is ok to admit the situation looks terrible. is ok to admit that given the lack o' un defense o' those staffers accused it is likely those folks did more than make mistakes or blunders. is ok to admit that oct 7 was pretty f'ing terrible and that if multiple unrwa employees were somehow involved...

you folks do realize that if you admit the situation looks absolute fubar for the UN, it doesn't mean you need sudden support israel, right?

when a similar situation arises and is handful o' bad israelis, US intelligence agents or new england patriots fans, are you gonna rush to defend? is a not zero chance some will recall and remind. 

HA! Good Fun!

Good  post Gromnir and  very good insights on this matter , especially this part " so ask self if the current kerfuffle were genuine analogous but it involved the malfeasance o' uk diplomats, cia agents, catholic priests or some other group you is justifiable suspicious 'bout. would you be defending all the innocent cia agents who the cia did not immediate fire when the story went public? would you be defending the larger organization who fired the folks caught doing something wrong? "

Lets  try  not  to defend and handwave this incident.  Its  a problem what happened and we  should unequivocally condemn it like we  do with all other similar things when the CIA is involved  or UK diplomats   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Norway's response is pretty reasonable. 

https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/statement-on-unrwa/id3023172/

[Elerond]

20 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

did nation of the world cut funding for that

if not than the reason they cut funding now should be obvious

Funding of peacekeeper is not voluntary, as every Member State is legally obligated to pay their respective share towards peacekeeping. Unlike with UN refugee organosations where funding is voluntary and is mostly done by USA.

[BruceVC]

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-react-three-us-servicemembers-were-killed-in-jordan-will-the-us-strike-back-at-iran/

We know about the  US response to this yesterday but Im not sure if  everyone is  aware  that US interests  in the ME  have faced over  150 attacks since  7 October by Iranian proxies

Now  the justification for this seems to be "but look at what Israel is doing in  Gaza" and  I find that hand waving unconvincing. Israel  is  not the US and  Iran is not the Palestinians or Hamas

Iran is  continuously provoking the US and escalating tensions with the US and we shouldnt be surprised  how the US responds 

 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/reception-for-trudeau-italian-pm-cancelled-after-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-blocked-entrances-1.6792416#:~:text=A dinner hosted by Prime,was set to take place.

Absolutely  outrageous 

@Malcador you see  the  problem when you  fail to enforce  the rule of  law and order,  now your PM couldn't meet  with  the Italian PM

Why didnt the  police  arrest people?  You cant allow aggressive protests to dictate or influence  any government policy 

 

 

 

Edited March 3 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/reception-for-trudeau-italian-pm-cancelled-after-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-blocked-entrances-1.6792416#:~:text=A dinner hosted by Prime,was set to take place.

Absolutely  outrageous 

@Malcador you see  the  problem when you  fail to enforce  the rule of  law and order,  now your PM couldn't meet  with  the Italian PM

Why didnt the  police  arrest people?  You cant allow aggressive protests to dictate or influence  any government policy 

 

 

 

Not seeing the aggression in the protest, they blocked the entrances ?  You're clutching your pearls over this one, oh well.

If there was any actual work to be done on this trip, was probably done beforehand anyway.

[uuuhhii]

can not allow protest to affect policy

didn't that mean ruler just ignore existence of all protest

not sure even french monarch are that stupid

Edited March 4 by uuuhhii

[BruceVC]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:30 AM, uuuhhii said:

can not allow protest to affect policy

didn't that mean ruler just ignore existence of all protest

not sure even french monarch are that stupid

Well in all Democracies you have a right to peaceful and legal protests

But you dont have a right to break the law and block entrances so governments cant have meetings 

And then it depends on the  nature of the protest and if that should influence government policy, Im not sure what pro-Palestinian protestors are expecting from the Canadian government?

But lots of outrage from protests dont influence government policy, look at Occupy Wall Street or Davos protests. They dont  achieve anything and they ignored but they allowed to happen

 

 

Edited March 7 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

On 3/3/2024 at 11:24 AM, BruceVC said:

Absolutely  outrageous 

@Malcador you see  the  problem when you  fail to enforce  the rule of  law and order,  now your PM couldn't meet  with  the Italian PM

Why didnt the  police  arrest people?  You cant allow aggressive protests to dictate or influence  any government policy

I do agree that it's not pleasant, but calling it absolutely outrageous does look a bit facetious, given that you seem to be quite OK with both the particularly vicious murder of a certain Khashoggi and the current (not completely proven but essentially indubitable) genocide of Gazans by Israel.

Which reminds me of a fairly sad but established fact: while human beings do indeed universally value justice, the majority of them value "their own people" a lot more than they value justice, from which it follows that if "their own people" commit atrocities or other than "their own people" are, for instance, murdered, they just don't care.

Edited March 7 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I do agree that it's not pleasant, but calling it absolutely outrageous does look a bit facetious, given that you seem to be quite OK with both the particularly vicious murder of a certain Khashoggi and the current (not completely proven but essentially indubitable) genocide of Gazans by Israel.

Which reminds me of a fairly sad but established fact: while human beings do indeed universally value justice, the majority of them value "their own people" a lot more than they value justice, from which it follows that if "their own people" commit atrocities or other than "their own people" are, for instance, murdered, they just don't care.

Fair enough, its just outrageous not absolutely outrageous 

And we love the word outrageous in protest vernacular so I assume you fine with that characterization? 

 

[xzar_monty]

15 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

And we love the word outrageous in protest vernacular so I assume you fine with that characterization?

I'm not sure who this "we" is, but I don't think I'd call it outrageous, either, although this is obviously not a big deal.

The problem with powerful language is that it tends to invalidate itself if used carelessly. Rubbishy newpapers are an excellent example of the phenomenon; I'm pretty sure that you've got your share of them in South Africa. If you look at their headlines, the tone is that something absolutely momentous has happened every day, but then, when something momentous does indeed happen (say, a 9/11), they've got nowhere to go because they've already used up their quota of strong words, every day. They can't go up to eleven[*], so to speak, because eleven is all they've got.

[*] I trust that the reference will be recognized.

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I'm not sure who this "we" is, but I don't think I'd call it outrageous, either, although this is obviously not a big deal.

The problem with powerful language is that it tends to invalidate itself if used carelessly. Rubbishy newpapers are an excellent example of the phenomenon; I'm pretty sure that you've got your share of them in South Africa. If you look at their headlines, the tone is that something absolutely momentous has happened every day, but then, when something momentous does indeed happen (say, a 9/11), they've got nowhere to go because they've already used up their quota of strong words, every day. They can't go up to eleven[*], so to speak, because eleven is all they've got.

[*] I trust that the reference will be recognized.

You know I like you but sometimes you misunderstand when Im joking or the context of what I say. And thats understandable because part of the misunderstanding is culture and translation and how the nature of  Internet debate occurs, jokes and intent can often be misunderstood

So in South Africa, and other countries,  anytime there is protest or reason to protest people will 90% of time use the word outrageous when in fact its not outrageous what they say they protesting for or demanding, its opposite of outrageous and its an unreasonable demand they making . So the word gets misused and abused to achieve an ostensible  " mass impact "  in the conversation or to get  public support for the protest. So for example public sector unions will demand double inflation  increases and performance bonus when in fact all increases in SA are typically based on inflation 

So the unions will say something like  " its outrageous the Capitalist public sector company  wont agree to a 12% salary increase " when the reality is thats double inflation and  most of our public sector entities are running at billions of Rands losses and dont deliver on services consistency like our electricity crisis and the failures to maintain power stations and corruption. So  much of our pubic sector generally underperforms and doesn't do a good job at its core  yet the unions are expecting bonuses and massive unjustifiable salary increases

So I use the word outrageous because of that reason, its not to be taken seriously. Its part of much of  global protest vernacular 

Our public sector wages bill uses 30 % of yearly tax revenue, we have  the second highest paid public sector  in the world relative to GDP  yet we have terrible outcomes and delivery  around the  public sector 

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2023-11-05-treasury-adopts-a-new-approach-to-rein-in-bloated-public-servants-wage-bill/

 

 

[Malcador]

Bruce is one of those people that wants protests to be off to the side and easily ignored.

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

And then it depends on the  nature of the protest and if that should influence government policy, Im not sure what pro-Palestinian protestors are expecting from the Canadian government?

Probably just apply pressure.  But also is just general outrage I suppose. People marched for Ukraine and not like Canada can really do much there either.

[Gfted1]

I wonder if the squatters are still at it?

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, Malcador said:

Bruce is one of those people that wants protests to be off to the side and easily ignored.

Probably just apply pressure.  But also is just general outrage I suppose. People marched for Ukraine and not like Canada can really do much there either.

Thats not completely accurate and in fact I would contend that my view is same as most people

Protests are an enshrined right in all Democracies, as much as I get irritated by many protests I absolutely support the right of people to protest

But the protests  must be legal and protesters must not break the law and if people break the law they must be arrested and this applies to all protests irrespective if its a left or right-wing protest  

Im actually consistent in my view, I dont just say " only BLM protestors who are looting must be arrested " I said the same thing about the Canadian truckers protest. The moment the truckers blocked the highway they should have been given 2-3 days maximum to end the protest but then they should have been arrested