Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[BruceVC]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67459141

 

@xzar_monty  and @Elerond

 

I see Finland is closing its  borders to prevent the weaponization  of illegal immigrants from the  Russian border 

Thats  an effective strategy,  lets see  how long Russia continues to abuse the plight of immigrants when they cant enter Finland 

[Mamoulian War]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67459141

 

@xzar_monty  and @Elerond

 

I see Finland is closing its  borders to prevent the weaponization  of illegal immigrants from the  Russian border 

Thats  an effective strategy,  lets see  how long Russia continues to abuse the plight of immigrants when they cant enter Finland 

Forever. Why do you think, if Russia does not care about the lives of their soldiers in Ukraine, they would suddenly start to care about some brown or black people freezing to death in Karelia?

[Sarex]

Apparently an Ukrainian pilot defected and flew to Russia with a SU-27.

[Malcador]

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/11/19/ex-minister-zahorodniuk-ukraine-can-defeat-russia-but-west-must-commit-to-total-victory/

 

Nothing all that new, seems a bit heavy on responsibility on the West'd part though.

[HoonDing]

Not much time until Trump returns, I suppose.

[Sarex]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/around-3000-trucks-stuck-ukrainian-border-due-polish-drivers-blockade-2023-11-19/

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/around-3000-trucks-stuck-ukrainian-border-due-polish-drivers-blockade-2023-11-19/

Obviously Putin is behind this. 

[xzar_monty]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:26 PM, Mamoulian War said:

Forever. Why do you think, if Russia does not care about the lives of their soldiers in Ukraine, they would suddenly start to care about some brown or black people freezing to death in Karelia?

Precisely. If they all die in Karelia, this is perfectly fine with Russia.

Let us keep in mind that this is a win-win situation for Russia: if Finland didn't close its borders, it could rejoice at the weakness of Finland / EU / the West. Now that Finland is taking measures, Russia is a) claiming Russophobia, b) accusing Finland of human rights violations, and b) using rather touching rhetoric to lament how the relations between these two countries close to each other have suffered an awful lot because of Finland's duplicity.

And please note, Russia really is doing all those three things right now. Point B is especially cool, given the circumstances.

[xzar_monty]

On 11/17/2023 at 1:27 AM, Gorth said:

Expect a certain percentage of those "id less" people to be working for GRU. They'll probably head back once the pain of the cold surpasses the benefits of their government paychecks.

Oh, absolutely. Our speaker of the parliament already pointed out that there is no way for us to know whether they are Wagnerites, GRU folks or whatnot.

His main point was these people have not suddenly found an interest in a potential asylum provided by Finland, but it's Russia that has suddenly found an interest in getting them into Finland.

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Precisely. If they all die in Karelia, this is perfectly fine with Russia.

Let us keep in mind that this is a win-win situation for Russia: if Finland didn't close its borders, it could rejoice at the weakness of Finland / EU / the West. Now that Finland is taking measures, Russia is a) claiming Russophobia, b) accusing Finland of human rights violations, and b) using rather touching rhetoric to lament how the relations between these two countries close to each other have suffered an awful lot because of Finland's duplicity.

And please note, Russia really is doing all those three things right now. Point B is especially cool, given the circumstances.

Russia accusing Finland of  " human rights abuses" 

You couldnt make this up if you tried, thats about as sincere  as ISIS wanting the ICC to charge the US for violations of the Geneva Convention 

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Malcador said:

Obviously Putin is behind this. 

Well  if   you want to  intentionally  conflate things that Russia is not  responsible for  then yes Russia is behind this

Its not really a serous  point to make and it doesnt change the long list of things Russia is responsible for but you can  do that 

[Mamoulian War]

5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Precisely. If they all die in Karelia, this is perfectly fine with Russia.

Let us keep in mind that this is a win-win situation for Russia: if Finland didn't close its borders, it could rejoice at the weakness of Finland / EU / the West. Now that Finland is taking measures, Russia is a) claiming Russophobia, b) accusing Finland of human rights violations, and b) using rather touching rhetoric to lament how the relations between these two countries close to each other have suffered an awful lot because of Finland's duplicity.

And please note, Russia really is doing all those three things right now. Point B is especially cool, given the circumstances.

Russia is already threatening Finland with tanks

 

 

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Well  if   you want to  intentionally  conflate things that Russia is not  responsible for  then yes Russia is behind this

Its not really a serous  point to make and it doesnt change the long list of things Russia is responsible for but you can  do that 

Just trying to think like Podolyak.

[xzar_monty]

59 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Russia is already threatening Finland with tanks

Let us recall what the historian Timothy Snyder said: Russia's #1 import is corruption, and because it is incapable of improving the general situation inside its borders, it tries to weaken everybody else as much as it can.

Apart from all other considerations, it saddens me to think what a petty way that is to spend one's time / life / whatever. For instance, how thoroughly cynical and joyless it has to be to work at a troll factory in St. Petersburg.

[BruceVC]

26 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Let us recall what the historian Timothy Snyder said: Russia's #1 import is corruption, and because it is incapable of improving the general situation inside its borders, it tries to weaken everybody else as much as it can.

Apart from all other considerations, it saddens me to think what a petty way that is to spend one's time / life / whatever. For instance, how thoroughly cynical and joyless it has to be to work at a troll factory in St. Petersburg.

Also you can't take seriously what  Russian propagandists say. We have all experienced  some of the hyperbole over the last 20 months 

I can guarantee you Russian  tanks wont be crossing the border of Finland 

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Also you can't take seriously what  Russian propagandists say. We have all experienced  some of the hyperbole over the last 20 months 

I can guarantee you Russian  tanks wont be crossing the border of Finland 

Nope, you have to take them very seriously. They are slowly moving their narrative of Putin’s endgoal for the next decade or so. If the west would not ignore their propaganda against Ukraine last two decades, we would not be where we are today…

[kanisatha]

3 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Nope, you have to take them very seriously. They are slowly moving their narrative of Putin’s endgoal for the next decade or so. If the west would not ignore their propaganda against Ukraine last two decades, we would not be where we are today…

Indeed! Excellent point. This is what was being analyzed in the Foreign Affairs article I recently linked.

Edited November 21, 2023 by kanisatha

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Also you can't take seriously what  Russian propagandists say. We have all experienced  some of the hyperbole over the last 20 months 

I can guarantee you Russian  tanks wont be crossing the border of Finland 

Depends on who the propagandist is, I suppose, but I agree, Article 5 counts for that.

 

[xzar_monty]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I can guarantee you Russian  tanks wont be crossing the border of Finland 

They almost certainly won't -- and in case they do, things are going very seriously wrong on other fronts (literal and figurative) as well. However, Russia is clearly intent on creating havoc inside Finland, and it's also almost certain that we haven't seen much of it yet.

It's not going to be pleasant. As one of our politicians pointed out yesterday, the current refugee situation hinges on the fact that Russia doesn't give a damn about any treaties or anyone's well-being, whereas Finland generally tends to be a decent customer and prefers to hold on to what has been agreed to. The downside of this, for Finland right now, is that the country is quite exploitable: start pouring in refugees so that they'll end up either in Finland or dead, and it's likely that Finland will try to absorb at least a significant amount of them. I think it shouldn't, but it likely will -- even if some of those people are Wagnerites, GRU folks or other people of the sort you really wouldn't want to introduce to your folks at home.

Russia is also doing its very best to convince the Russian minority in Finland that all of this has everything to do with Finland being evil and none of it has anything to do with Ukraine. At the moment, it's impossble to gauge how well that project is going, but I'd be prepared to bet that most Russian natives in Finland tend to side with Russia, not Finland.

[Malcador]

The guy's whispering gets irritating after a while.

[Mamoulian War]

Russia has expanded the ranks of their heroes. Putin has pardoned two convicted mass murderers and cannibals as a reward for killing Ukrainians. Such a lovely country, isn’t it?

 

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/11/23/7430047/

[Malcador]

https://archive.is/uh7hv

original - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-lacks-firepower-as-it-braces-for-a-brutal-winter-war-p2pwrdr0k

"“Hopefully Israel will be able to complete its task in the near future,” said the commander. “Our situation is critical, because we are not getting enough munitions. We are well covered with small arms but we are in extreme need of artillery shells, explosives, anti-tank weapons and mines."

Bit snarky about finding out their ranking in things.

 

[Mamoulian War]

Russia shows another evidence, that danger of NATO proximity to Russia was just a bull**** excuse for their planned genocide of Ukrainian people. They are moving S400 air defenses away from fully NATO encircled exclave of Kaliningrad to occupied territories

 

[Malcador]

Huh Frontline took away access to the Mariupol documentary.  Well, honestly, wasn't all that impressive.

The Allies have built the weather control device.

[xzar_monty]

7 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Russia shows another evidence, that danger of NATO proximity to Russia was just a bull**** excuse for their planned genocide of Ukrainian people.

Kreml obviously has absolutely no fear of NATO, as evidenced by numerous decisions during the war. NATO also isn't a threat to Russia, which is also obvious.

It would actually be quite interesting to know which percentage of Russians seriously regard NATO as a threat. Putin, quite rightly, doesn't, and neither do his generals and other allies. But the people? I'd love to know, but of course I won't.