The TV and Streaming Thread: US Writers/Actors Strike Edition

[HoonDing]

Faile, Berelain, Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, well basically 90% of Jordan females are all equally insufferable. Nynaeve isn't that bad.

Min is the only female who's likable.

And maybe... Verin too? lmao

Edited October 20, 2023 by HoonDing

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

These are words I never though I'd write: Elayne in the tv series is an active improvement on the books, so far, and pretty endearing. Really.

. . .

Well, actually, okay, if you start at the absolute bottom like you do with Book!Elayne, it does make sense that there's practically infinite room for improvement and you can really only improve the character - heck, even a small improvement can honestly go a long ways. Like, just don't have her be a total dip**** literally one hundred percent of the time, and you've already massively improved her character from the book version.

4 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Faile, Berelain, Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, well basically 90% of Jordan females are all equally insufferable. Nynaeve isn't that bad.

Min is the only female who's likable.

And maybe... Verin too? lmao

I went back and forth with Egwene as the series went on, but yes, Faile is the worst, Berelain is the worst, Aviendha is the worst...however, Elayne is the worst of the worst. There is something about her that makes my brain short circuit to the point where I eventually just started skipping her chapters wholesale. Even Nynaeve with Jordan writing about her braid tugging approximately every nanosecond didn't make me that mad. Robert Jordan was a literature terrorist for a number of reasons, but especially because of his female characters: never before and never again will there ever be such a sorry lot of 'strong' female characters so worthy of summary executions. It's a marvel that I made it all the way through the series and even mostly enjoyed it with his atrocious writing and characters: sometimes, you still enjoy something in spite of just about everything being wrong with it.

[Sarex]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

It's a marvel that I made it all the way through the series and even mostly enjoyed it with his atrocious writing and characters: sometimes, you still enjoy something in spite of just about everything being wrong with it.

I mean he was no Ivo Andric but his writing was ok for the genre. (Who would you say is a good fantasy writer? I'm curious.)

The characters were a feminist's fever dream, but I still found them enjoyable.

[uuuhhii]

robert jordan write female mage like they are female teacher that used to beat him with steel ruler at school

or maybe nun at catholic school

heard horrible things about them

[Zoraptor]

He's got a type, that's for sure. Part of it is the world design being fundamentally different from ours with women having a lot more intrinsic power and men with that power being Dangerous. Same thing said about the Ashaman later: it's hard to tell people they have the power to shake the world yet they should also walk and talk softly.

And yeah, it's kind of telling that the women people tend to like in Jordan's writing are those that don't have/ don't want power- like Min. Or at least don't want the power for the sake of it, like Nynaeve. Or are willing to give it up for The Greater Good (the greater good) like a certain Brown, or Moiraine who is both the latter. The ones people tend to dislike are exactly those who'd be obnoxious in the real world too- Elaida, Cadsuane, Egwene, Elayne. The hyper ambitious prodigy upset someone's better than her generational talent and willing to squash anything for her ambition (Eg); the princess of the people who is 'down with the poors' and actually massively out of touch and spends books getting 'her people' killed utterly pointlessly because she thinks she's invulnerable, and worse, had a chapter spent on her bath (El); the plethora of Aes Sedai who are so impressed by their title that they expect reality to morph itself around them (would be quicker to list the exceptions); Faile, who's... Faile. I'd like to use the 'Justice' Red Dwarf line and say that's her crime but also her punishment but... she's Faile, so she's everyone else's punishment.

Most of them are well written though, within the limits of Jordan's writing. Elayne is deeply annoying and one of the worst for overinflated plots (which is Jordan's main problem, imo), but the character annoyance at least is mostly because she's exactly what you'd expect from someone who is massively privileged and thinks she's progressive. The classic example is not her constantly swallowing her veil in Tanchico because she has her nose in the air or being chased because her 'perfect' poor person curtsy came across as sarcastic but her thinking her mother was universally loved as Queen and everything was Gaebril's fault. Well no, we see Caemlyn in book 1, and Morgase is not popular, even then, it's specifically said multiple times that white heavily outnumbered red. If she were real world she'd be doing things like going to 'Feed Africa' rallies in her designer clothes and jewelry and wondering why people were rolling their eyes, after all she'd posted dozens of time to #StopKony2012 what more could people expect?

[HoonDing]

Actually thinking about it a bit more Tuon and the milf queen Tylin (sp?) who gets killed off screen were okay as well.

And... Sulin? lmao

Wasn't Jordan like Eddings though, where his wife wrote half the books

Edited October 20, 2023 by HoonDing

[Azdeus]

I don't remember her writing alot, but she supposedly had alot of input on the characters primarily female. She was his editor though.

[Bartimaeus]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

I mean he was no Ivo Andric but his writing was ok for the genre. (Who would you say is a good fantasy writer? I'm curious.)

The characters were a feminist's fever dream, but I still found them enjoyable.

I would say that Jordan's writing is pretty anti-feminist, and I'd be pretty shocked if any serious feminists thought much anything positive of the vast majority of Jordan's writing specifically through that lens. Like, okay, they are strong, and most of them reside in female-dominated or at least female-equal societies...which sounds good on its face, unless, you know, pretty much everything that they do is bad/irritating/misguided/wrong-headed/stereotypical and most of them are all annoying idiots constantly. It doesn't help if everyone seems to have this bizarre obsession with thinking about their bosoms, or that they're all constantly making sure that they're currently pretty/presentable, never mind how they demean and humiliate each other (sometimes literally institutionally or ritualistically!), or that they're always trying to 'control' men, or that men seem to always have to eventually 'force' the women to see sense for their own good...all that kind of bullcrap that Jordan wrote and the rather explicitly negative way that it's all framed makes it pretty damned obvious how Jordan feels about women. Just letting them be "strong" absolutely does not equate to 'feminism' - you're going to have to do a little more homework than that to convince me of any feminist leanings. Mind you, that doesn't mean a reader, female or male, couldn't be inspired by or love a given female character for any number of reasons...or that there aren't literally any pro-feminist ideas (obviously there are!), but on the whole, with the way Jordan framed his writing throughout the entirety of the series? No, I don't bloody well think so.

Every woman I've talked to about Wheel of Time that has tried this series (or even read its entirety!) has mentioned how awful the vast majority of Jordan's female characters and societies are and we've had long discussions about how stupid and annoying all of it is, so I'm inclined to believe them and myself that there is indeed something very seriously wrong. Oh yeah, and I just did a cursory look-up of "Wheel of Time feminism", and there's all sorts of other discriminative nasties that Jordan baked into his writing that you might well ignore while just reading casually, but really don't stand up to scrutiny. Like, lmao, men must take control of and master the One Power, while women must...submit to the One Power? Or how women's appearances are always being described in terms of how beautiful (or not) they are (already bad!), and if there's anything less than ideal about them, there's explicit mention about whatever that is (double bad!)? It's pretty gnarly stuff through and through.

Fantasy: No idea, don't ask me for recommendations on fantasy, I gave up on the genre like a decade ago because of how frustrated I was getting with it, so it's not really my wheelhouse in the first place. Most all I care about is characters and having stories being organically driven by them, and for that reason, I will repeat once again: Robert Jordan is a literature terrorist...whose books I happened to mostly enjoy upon the first read. I once tried to restart reading the series again and couldn't get past even the first book without having the draw of learning more about the story to power me through, which is a most curious phenomenon indeed - it's almost always once I am not so pre-occupied with the details of the story or what's literally happening that I truly start to enjoy something, which is why second reads/watches of something that I really liked is often when I know that I loved something, as I can focus on the little things and fun character stuff. Yeah, no dice for The Wheel of Time, it just got exponentially more annoying instead.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I would say that Jordan's writing is pretty anti-feminist, and I'd be pretty shocked if any serious feminists thought much anything positive of the vast majority of Jordan's writing specifically through that lens. Like, okay, they are strong, and most of them reside in female-dominated or at least female-equal societies...which sounds good on its face, unless, you know, pretty much everything that they do is bad/irritating/misguided/wrong-headed/stereotypical and most of them are all annoying idiots constantly. It doesn't help if everyone seems to have this bizarre obsession with thinking about their bosoms, or that they're all constantly making sure that they're currently pretty/presentable, never mind how they demean and humiliate each other (sometimes literally institutionally or ritualistically!), or that they're always trying to 'control' men, or that men seem to always have to eventually 'force' the women to see sense for their own good...all that kind of bullcrap that Jordan wrote and the rather explicitly negative way that it's all framed makes it pretty damned obvious how Jordan feels about women. Just letting them be "strong" absolutely does not equate to 'feminism' - you're going to have to do a little more homework than that to convince me of any feminist leanings. Mind you, that doesn't mean a reader, female or male, couldn't be inspired by or love a given female character for any number of reasons...or that there aren't literally any pro-feminist ideas (obviously there are!), but on the whole, with the way Jordan framed his writing throughout the entirety of the series? No, I don't bloody well think so.

Every woman I've talked to about Wheel of Time that has tried this series (or even read its entirety!) has mentioned how awful the vast majority of Jordan's female characters and societies are and we've had long discussions about how stupid and annoying all of it is, so I'm inclined to believe them and myself that there is indeed something very seriously wrong. Oh yeah, and I just did a cursory look-up of "Wheel of Time feminism", and there's all sorts of other discriminative nasties that Jordan baked into his writing that you might well ignore while just reading casually, but really don't stand up to scrutiny. Like, lmao, men must take control of and master the One Power, while women must...submit to the One Power? Or how women's appearances are always being described in terms of how beautiful (or not) they are (already bad!), and if there's anything less than ideal about them, there's explicit mention about whatever that is (double bad!)? It's pretty gnarly stuff through and through.

Fantasy: No idea, don't ask me for recommendations on fantasy, I gave up on the genre like a decade ago because of how frustrated I was getting with it, so it's not really my wheelhouse in the first place. Most all I care about is characters and having stories being organically driven by them, and for that reason, I will repeat once again: Robert Jordan is a literature terrorist...whose books I happened to mostly enjoy upon the first read. I once tried to restart reading the series again and couldn't get past even the first book without having the draw of learning more about the story to power me through, which is a most curious phenomenon indeed - it's almost always once I am not so pre-occupied with the details of the story or what's literally happening that I truly start to enjoy something, which is why second reads/watches of something that I really liked is often when I know that I loved something, as I can focus on the little things and fun character stuff. Yeah, no dice for The Wheel of Time, it just got exponentially more annoying instead.

As far as I remember most of the negatives you mention have been from the POV of the opposite gender, ie. the male/female view on things. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think he ever used the third person to do that. A lot of the examples you mention are always diametrically opposite depending on who's POV you are reading. A good example would be Mat trying to save the girls in book 3 and his view on it as opposed to the girls view on it. Some things are not even due to gender but simply the age of the character, most of them are barely out of their teens and as such are inherently naive and dumb in their thinking. There is also the fact that the world has been destroyed by men and there is a lot of distrust there that is essentially inborn at that point. Women, girls especially, are obsessed with how they present themselves and their perceived flaws, the success of the cosmetic industry can attest to that (have you ever met a women who doesn't own makeup?). I have not met a women who is happy with every aspect of their body and who would, given a magic body morph wand, not change something about it. I do not see a big disconnect there between the WoT and real world women. Also, I would say the world today is fairly obsessed with bosom and behinds.

On the topic of everything being described in terms of beauty, although I would define it more as outwards appearance, I don't see an issue there. When you see a person do you not first think about how they look and how they are dressed. I doubt your first impression is going to be about how smart they are or on their opinion on political situation in South Africa. This seems perfectly human to me.

I googled with a fairly neutral query and the results I'm seeing is that there are just as much if not more women who were able to identify with the female character/s in the books. Don't take this the wrong way, but we tend to surround ourselves with like minded individuals, so I am not surprised that the women, who's opinion you value enough to ask, share and confirm your beliefs.

I laugh thinking about how the readers would have reacted if he wrote the female characters through a lens of a male dominant society.

10 hours ago, Azdeus said:

I don't remember her writing alot, but she supposedly had alot of input on the characters primarily female. She was his editor though.

That's what I heard too. Which makes it doubly funny.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sarex

[Zoraptor]

36 minutes ago, Sarex said:

As far as I remember most of the negatives you mention have been from the POV of the opposite gender, ie. the male/female view on things. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think he ever used the third person to do that.

Jordan used limited viewpoint 3rd person 99% of the time- it's the limited part that is important rather than the 3rd person.

IIRC some of the intros/ outros are written as omniscent in parts ('God view'/ absolute narration, ie this happened or that happened, not Rand or whoever thought that happened). But otherwise while the writing is in 3rd person we only see or hear what the viewpoint character sees or hears, and get their (unreliable) internal narrative on why they did whatever and what they thought of things. That's also why there are a lot of ample bosoms- Mat, Perrin and Rand are 18-20 years old and heterosexual, they are going to notice ladies' chests, and they are the protagonists so you get their viewpoint a lot. If it's, say, Egwene, she doesn't notice them anywhere near so much.

13 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Eddings

Now there's a guy who could write an annoying character who was not intended to be annoying.

[uuuhhii]

2 hours ago, Sarex said:

As far as I remember most of the negatives you mention have been from the POV of the opposite gender, ie. the male/female view on things. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think he ever used the third person to do that. A lot of the examples you mention are always diametrically opposite depending on who's POV you are reading. A good example would be Mat trying to save the girls in book 3 and his view on it as opposed to the girls view on it. Some things are not even due to gender but simply the age of the character, most of them are barely out of their teens and as such are inherently naive and dumb in their thinking. There is also the fact that the world has been destroyed by men and there is a lot of distrust there that is essentially inborn at that point. Women, girls especially, are obsessed with how they present themselves and their perceived flaws, the success of the cosmetic industry can attest to that (have you ever met a women who doesn't own makeup?). I have not met a women who is happy with every aspect of their body and who would, given a magic body morph wand, not change something about it. I do not see a big disconnect there between the WoT and real world women. Also, I would say the world today is fairly obsessed with bosom and behinds.

On the topic of everything being described in terms of beauty, although I would define it more as outwards appearance, I don't see an issue there. When you see a person do you not first think about how they look and how they are dressed. I doubt your first impression is going to be about how smart they are or on their opinion on political situation in South Africa. This seems perfectly human to me.

I googled with a fairly neutral query and the results I'm seeing is that there are just as much if not more women who were able to identify with the female character/s in the books. Don't take this the wrong way, but we tend to surround ourselves with like minded individuals, so I am not surprised that the women, who's opinion you value enough to ask, share and confirm your beliefs.

I laugh thinking about how the readers would have reacted if he wrote the female characters through a lens of a male dominant society.

That's what I heard too. Which makes it doubly funny.

that is another ancient problem with fantasy

why do fantasy human still think or behave like historical human in high fantasy setting

it is often too jarring and ridiculous when one start to notice it

this could be another reason grimdark low fantasy became so common

Edited October 21, 2023 by uuuhhii

[Sarex]

34 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

that is another ancient problem with fantasy

why do fantasy human still think or behave like historical human in high fantasy setting

it is often too jarring and ridiculous when one start to notice it

this could be another reason grimdark low fantasy became so common

Why would they not? They are still human.

  

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Jordan used limited viewpoint 3rd person 99% of the time- it's the limited part that is important rather than the 3rd person.

IIRC some of the intros/ outros are written as omniscent in parts ('God view'/ absolute narration, ie this happened or that happened, not Rand or whoever thought that happened). But otherwise while the writing is in 3rd person we only see or hear what the viewpoint character sees or hears, and get their (unreliable) internal narrative on why they did whatever and what they thought of things. That's also why there are a lot of ample bosoms- Mat, Perrin and Rand are 18-20 years old and heterosexual, they are going to notice ladies' chests, and they are the protagonists so you get their viewpoint a lot. If it's, say, Egwene, she doesn't notice them anywhere near so much.

Been a while since I read the books last. I'm buying the localized special edition books and will probably give it a reread once they all come out.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sarex

[uuuhhii]

19 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Why would they not? They are still human.

  

Been a while since I read the books last. I'm buying the localized special edition books and will probably give it a reread once they all come out.

they mimic human in environment that doesn't make sense

the worst problem would be fantasy catholic syndrome

pretty much 7 out of 10 fantasy book have their own version of catholic church just with a few lazy name change

that doesn't make sense especially in high fantasy setting with so much actual magic and vast pantheon

it doesn't make sense in dragon age

it doesn't make sense in mistborn

and so so so many other setting

even setting like dnd have this problem manifest in different form

the whole faith healing cleric spell list doesn't fit all the different deity with different personality and area of concern

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by uuuhhii

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

As far as I remember most of the negatives you mention have been from the POV of the opposite gender, ie. the male/female view on things. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think he ever used the third person to do that. A lot of the examples you mention are always diametrically opposite depending on who's POV you are reading. A good example would be Mat trying to save the girls in book 3 and his view on it as opposed to the girls view on it. Some things are not even due to gender but simply the age of the character, most of them are barely out of their teens and as such are inherently naive and dumb in their thinking. There is also the fact that the world has been destroyed by men and there is a lot of distrust there that is essentially inborn at that point.

Well, I'm certainly not going to re-read the entire series to determine whether or not all of Jordan's awful framing of women is limited to just the male characters, I'll give you that - especially seeing as I disliked or outright hated reading most of the female characters' parts. I guess the lesson there is that I should just hate all the male characters, too? Not really helping, I'm afraid.

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

Women, girls especially, are obsessed with how they present themselves and their perceived flaws, the success of the cosmetic industry can attest to that (have you ever met a women who doesn't own makeup?). I have not met a women who is happy with every aspect of their body and who would, given a magic body morph wand, not change something about it. I do not see a big disconnect there between the WoT and real world women. Also, I would say the world today is fairly obsessed with bosom and behinds.

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with The Wheel of Time? Is this a fictional high fantasy setting predominantly ruled by women set in a medieval era (i.e. completely unlike our own), or the real world? Are you honestly saying that many girls/women's preoccupation with their personal appearances is...inherent to them, and not a reflection of the kind of society that we presently live in (and who the ones that raised us and who raised them have historically lived in), the values and behaviors foisted upon them as they develop from a young age? You don't think the dynamics might be a little different in a society with opposite social structures and values? See, that's kind of exactly my problem: here are all these great and powerful women living in a women-dominated society...and yet, it can't help but feel like it was all written from the point of view of a guy who clearly did not have the appropriate breadth of perspective to really do any of it justice, to escape the trappings of his own very limited world experiences and upbringing. And for a guy writing this kind of massive fictional world that has so much focus on those exact things, it's kind of a problem.

(e): @uuuhhii chimed in while I was writing this and helped further illustrate my problem here as well.

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

On the topic of everything being described in terms of beauty, although I would define it more as outwards appearance, I don't see an issue there. When you see a person do you not first think about how they look and how they are dressed. I doubt your first impression is going to be about how smart they are or on their opinion on political situation in South Africa. This seems perfectly human to me.

No, I would not say that my immediate thoughts every time I see a person (actually, really specifically just the girls or women, because the boys and men would usually get described in a much different manner that sounded way less "HOW MUCH OF A HOT BABE IS SHE?") for the first time is precisely evaluating their measure of beauty. It will very much depend on the precise circumstances. For example, if a woman upon a horse galloped into my vicinity, I can tell you that the first thing I wouldn't do is immediately notice how round her damned boobs are and that she's pretty and maybe even beautiful but her nose is just too big...and this is coming from the perspective of another female character - thank you very much, book 8, literally one queen meeting another queen in a political meeting. Fantastic writing, so well-framed and intentioned, .

Quote

I googled with a fairly neutral query and the results I'm seeing is that there are just as much if not more women who were able to identify with the female character/s in the books. Don't take this the wrong way, but we tend to surround ourselves with like minded individuals, so I am not surprised that the women, who's opinion you value enough to ask, share and confirm your beliefs.

I really don't think it matters if a given girl or woman can identify with a female character from The Wheel of Time, which I already talked about in my previous post: there are many real world women that can unironically identify with a number of female characters from very questionable narratives in the Old Testament, and there are many people whose favorite films have themes and messages completely opposite to their own values that they completely ignore or are blind to, either intentionally or unintentionally: it's of no matter, people enjoy and identify with what they do for whatever arbitrary reasons, and that's perfectly fine. Now if someone else's actual analysis can meaningfully explain why and thereby possibly convince me elsewise, that's a whole different thing. And never mind that even that is limited to the purview of just a single character rather than the writing and framing of the series as a whole: I can love and identify with a character from a series I explicitly think is bad and/or has subversive values as well, it really doesn't mean much.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The Fall of the House of Usher. Mike Flanagan (loosely) does Edgar Allan Poe in a modern setting. It's a return to form for Flanagan, a tight miniseries that feels like a miniseries as opposed to an 8 hour movie.

@Bartimaeus may like this, assuming his brain doesn't short circuit over some arcane rule unknown even to him and push him into a murderous rage. I say this with love....and in hopes I will be spared from the brutality of Bartimaeus. Everyone else who liked Midnight Mass will probably dig the show, which I think @majestic did.

[Bartimaeus]

2 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

The Fall of the House of Usher. Mike Flanagan (loosely) does Edgar Allan Poe in a modern setting. It's a return to form for Flanagan, a tight miniseries that feels like a miniseries as opposed to an 8 hour movie.

@Bartimaeus may like this, assuming his brain doesn't short circuit over some arcane rule unknown even to him and push him into a murderous rage. I say this with love....and in hopes I will be spared from the brutality of Bartimaeus. Everyone else who liked Midnight Mass will probably dig the show, which I think @majestic did.

I've now had two people say I should like it, and two people say I'll hate it. An exhilarating curiosity indeed: who are the fools amongst me?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I've now had two people say I should like it, and two people say I'll hate it. An exhilarating curiosity indeed: who are the fools amongst me?

Well I said you'd like it or hate it, so I'm covered either way.

[Sarex]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Well, I'm certainly not going to re-read the entire series to determine whether or not all of Jordan's awful framing of women is limited to just the male characters, I'll give you that - especially seeing as I disliked or outright hated reading most of the female characters' parts. I guess the lesson there is that I should just hate all the male characters, too? Not really helping, I'm afraid.

Oh, I'm not trying to convince you to like it or give it another shot. I was just sharing my opinion on the matter. You like what you like, who am I to tell you differently.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with The Wheel of Time? Is this a fictional high fantasy setting predominantly ruled by women set in a medieval era (i.e. completely unlike our own), or the real world? Are you honestly saying that many girls/women's preoccupation with their personal appearances is...inherent to them, and not a reflection of the kind of society that we presently live in (and who the ones that raised us and who raised them have historically lived in), the values and behaviors foisted upon them as they develop from a young age? You don't think the dynamics might be a little different in a society with opposite social structures and values?

None taken. Good characters should be relatable and some of those things make said characters relatable (most of the readers are not going to relate to wielding magic and sword fighting, but they will relate to dressing up and trying to look pretty). Maybe you missed this part, but the current age in the story of WoT is our distant future, ie. our world today is the distant past in the books. But let's ignore that aspect of it.

Why should it change? I'm not saying there isn't a reality where that could be or is the case, but what makes you think that matriarchal aspect of society would somehow force that change? I mean an example from the top of my head would be Cleopatra who was at the top of the food chain and power scale and she was still famous for her makeup and style and the use of it to get what she wanted, it didn't somehow make her not care about her appearance or how she was perceived by the men around her. Yeah I think genetics/evolution plays a part in it. Sure society amplifies it, but at the end of day there needs to be fertile ground for such ideas to take effect.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

See, that's kind of exactly my problem: here are all these great and powerful women living in a women-dominated society...and yet, it can't help but feel like it was all written from the point of view of a guy who clearly did not have the appropriate breadth of perspective to really do any of it justice, to escape the trappings of his own very limited world experiences and upbringing. And for a guy writing this kind of massive fictional world that has so much focus on those exact things, it's kind of a problem.

I find it strange and a little bit funny that particular point was the deal breaker for you.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

(e): @uuuhhii chimed in while I was writing this and helped further illustrate my problem here as well.

@uuuhhii and you seem to think that humans would somehow change or behave differently in a world with magic. Magic is just a form of power, I don't see why exactly humans should be different or behave differently than they do in the real world. In the real world some people have power and can do whatever they want and some people are powerless, magic is just a flavor.

If we invented a way for people to shoot fireballs out of their arms today, do you think that would change anything?

To people who are born in a world with magic, that is just another aspect of life another form of power. They are still human and will behave like humans do. What difference does it make if you make fireworks with the one power or with gunpowder, the end results is the same.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

No, I would not say that my immediate thoughts every time I see a person (actually, really specifically just the girls or women, because the boys and men would usually get described in a much different manner that sounded way less "HOW MUCH OF A HOT BABE IS SHE?") for the first time is precisely evaluating their measure of beauty. It will very much depend on the precise circumstances. For example, if a woman upon a horse galloped into my vicinity, I can tell you that the first thing I wouldn't do is immediately notice how round her damned boobs are and that she's pretty and maybe even beautiful but her nose is just too big...and this is coming from the perspective of another female character - thank you very much, book 8, literally one queen meeting another queen in a political meeting. Fantastic writing, so well-framed and intentioned, .

So what is the first thought you have when you see or engage with a new person?

I can tell you that women in fact look at each other and measure advantages and flaws especially young ones. The older ones usually gauge how young their counterpart looks for their age and try to guess said age. And young girls can be very mean and tribal. As for the horse, I do not understand what bearing on the matter it has. If I saw a women in a car maybe I would first have a thought about her car and then her, or more likely I would have a thought about how she was driving said car.

I think you are giving it too much weight, these are passing thoughts that happen quickly, but they do happen first usually (at least for me). I think this whole thing is probably exacerbated for you because Robert Jordan famously describes everything ad nauseam, so a lot of the word count goes there.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I really don't think it matters if a given girl or woman can identify with a female character from The Wheel of Time, which I already talked about in my previous post: there are many real world women that can unironically identify with a number of female characters from very questionable narratives in the Old Testament, and there are many people whose favorite films have themes and messages completely opposite to their own values that they completely ignore or are blind to, either intentionally or unintentionally: it's of no matter, people enjoy and identify with what they do for whatever arbitrary reasons, and that's perfectly fine. Now if someone else's actual analysis can meaningfully explain why and thereby possibly convince me elsewise, that's a whole different thing. And never mind that even that is limited to the purview of just a single character rather than the writing and framing of the series as a whole: I can love and identify with a character from a series I explicitly think is bad and/or has subversive values as well, it really doesn't mean much.

Fair enough.

A question. Do you think it's bad for someone's first thought about some else is to be about their physical appearance? Not a trap or a bait, I am genuinely curios about you opinion, because that is the feeling I am getting from what you wrote.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sarex

[uuuhhii]

human behave very differently after they learn how to use of stone fire bronze

they certainly will not use wagon after they get hands on some cheap flying carpet

human will always min max the fun out of any of these power and make life miserable for eachother

but misery come in many form despite always end the same way

[Sarex]

What difference does it make if they flying carpets or airplanes? Why would that make them behave differently?

 

They did min/max int he previous age and brought about misery.

 

[Bartimaeus]

54 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I find it strange and a little bit funny that particular point was the deal breaker for you.

As it relates to making painfully obtuse and unlikeable characters that are being framed in a terrible light and just don't seem to be the right fit for their setting, it should not surprise anyone in the slightest: it is the very same drum I have been beating for positively ages now.

54 minutes ago, Sarex said:

So what is the first thought you have when you see or engage with a new person?

I can tell you that women in fact look at each other and measure advantages and flaws especially young ones. The older ones usually gauge how young their counterpart looks for their age and try to guess said age. And young girls can be very mean and tribal. As for the horse, I do not understand what bearing on the matter it has. If I saw a women in a car maybe I would first have a thought about her car and then her, or more likely I would have a thought about how she was driving said car.

I think you are giving it too much weight, these are passing thoughts that happen quickly, but they do happen first usually (at least for me). I think this whole thing is probably exacerbated for you because Robert Jordan famously describes everything ad nauseam, so a lot of the word count goes there.

A question. Do you think it's bad for someone's first thought about some else is to be about their physical appearance? Not a trap or a bait, I am genuinely curios about you opinion, because that is the feeling I am getting from what you wrote.

Of course not: usually, someone's appearance is the first thing you see, and there's typically no harm in drawing upon your knowledge of patterns and beginning to formulate thoughts and impressions about that person, though they should ideally be thoughts and impressions lightly held that can be easily overturned given evidence to the contrary of what you initially felt. When your first thoughts are always "ooga booga big booba", that's when we start to have problems: I did not know I was signing up for a series apparently aimed at cavemen. I have never in my entire life read any other series that was so keenly focused on the things that Robert Jordan seemed to be, and for all his ability to draw me into a world and for me to actually finish the series, I hope I never do so again, because it is unpleasant and unnecessary...among the many other issues with his writing.

54 minutes ago, Sarex said:

and you seem to think that humans would somehow change or behave differently in a world with magic. Magic is just a form of power, I don't see why exactly humans should be different or behave differently than they do in the real world. In the real world some people have power and can do whatever they want and some people are powerless, magic is just a flavor.

If we invented a way for people to shoot fireballs out of their arms today, do you think that would change anything?

To people who are born in a world with magic, that is just another aspect of life another form of power. They are still human and will behave like humans do. What difference does it make if you make fireworks with the one power or with gunpowder, the end results is the same.

In a world where girls and women never had any reason to ever worry about their personal appearances, either because they have the power not to, or because societal pressures are drastically different, do I believe that at least some if not most of them would not care, or that at least their behaviors revolving around such would be different? Uh, yes, yes I do.

6 hours ago, Sarex said:

Women, girls especially, are obsessed with how they present themselves and their perceived flaws, the success of the cosmetic industry can attest to that (have you ever met a women who doesn't own makeup?). I have not met a women who is happy with every aspect of their body and who would, given a magic body morph wand, not change something about it. I do not see a big disconnect there between the WoT and real world women.

Why are they obsessed with how they present themselves and their perceived flaws? I have and do know women who don't give a ****, possibly against their 'objective' best interests, but because the price of socially conforming doesn't outweigh the costs in their time, effort, and money to do so. For goodness sake, a huge percentage of recent generations in Western society consider body hair on girls/women to be gross and unnatural. Body hair. That which literally 99.99% of us all have...naturally. That which signifies going through puberty, physical and sexual development/maturity. It's so ingrained into their thinking that girls viciously bully other girls over it, literally to the point of girls killing themselves! Why? You think that's just...a natural behavior, even though it's very obviously not always been true throughout even recent history? No, man, I'd say that's a load of crap supported by a whole bunch of other loads of crap, just like most of what we're discussing here. The idea that this is just how girls/women are and always will be regardless of historical/sociopolitical/cultural/economic reasons, or power dynamics, or an other number of things, seems so obviously silly and farcical that I can't believe we're having a discussion about it. So yes, if you write a world with completely different social structures that seem in drastic opposition to our real world ones, I do expect the people in those social structures to behave at least somewhat differently than if you didn't. Perhaps it might even be an integral part of someone's fictional fantasy setting and world, I don't know.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

When your first thoughts are always "ooga booga big booba", that's when we start to have problems: I did not know I was signing up for a series apparently aimed at cavemen.

That got a laugh out of me!

Fair enough I see where you are coming from. I do not agree completely (I agree with the fact that women are becoming obsessed with it and that is not good) and think you are taking it to the extreme in this particular case, but I can respect your opinion.

All that I will say is to never ever read the Kate Daniels series, well maybe only if your life depended on it, but even then I'm fairly sure you would get a brain aneurysm. Tbh, I don't know how I even got to book 4 in that series.

@uuuhhii Did you ever try Malazan Book of the Fallen?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sarex

[uuuhhii]

13 minutes ago, Sarex said:

That got a laugh out of me!

Fair enough I see where you are coming from. I do not agree completely (I agree with the fact that women are becoming obsessed with it and that is not good) and think you are taking it to the extreme in this particular case, but I can respect your opinion.

All that I will say is to never ever read the Kate Daniels series, well maybe only if your life depended on it, but even then I'm fairly sure you would get a brain aneurysm. Tbh, I don't know how I even got to book 4 in that series.

@uuuhhii Did you ever try Malazan Book of the Fallen?

about 100 page of gardens of the moon before giving up

it is as impenetrable as many say

[Sarex]

22 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

about 100 page of gardens of the moon before giving up

it is as impenetrable as many say

You just need to get to end of book one, then everything starts making sense (kind of) and it's not a problem with the following books. I think this is the only fantasy series I read that gets closest to what you are asking.

[uuuhhii]

7 minutes ago, Sarex said:

You just need to get to end of book one, then everything starts making sense (kind of) and it's not a problem with the following books. I think this is the only fantasy series I read that gets closest to what you are asking.

every dimention have their own magic open portal to other dimention to use their magic is a great concept

sad more novel didn't use it well