Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part VII

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On 5/15/2024 at 12:06 AM, Sven_ said:

Which is rather unfortunate, as:

Yeah, it's bizarre that quantity itself is measured as a positive without any analysis of what that quantity is. If a 100+ hour game feels like a chore half the time then I'd think the length would be a negative.

On 5/15/2024 at 1:52 AM, Sarex said:

My only fear for BG3, apart from the Larian aroma, is that the spreadsheets look a tad too basic. Tbf I have yet to play the game myself.

The character sheets are basic, but I think that what makes a game isn't necessarily how complex the mechanics are but what it does with them. There's more than a few encounters in BG3 that make very good uses of the game mechanics to make you play tactically in a way the Owlfinder games just don't....and that's without factoring in how BG3 is 3-dimensional with the ability to fly or jump or push enemies off cliffs that add an absolute ton of options to gameplay. While Owlfinder certainly has more individual combat options than BG3, BG3 still feels like there are more useful options to take than in Owlfinder.

[ShadySands]

I haven't been able to get into a Larian game since Dragon Commander. I wish them the best but something about their games doesn't click with me.

There's a lot of combat in the game, maybe too much, but for me it doesn't grate like it does in a game like DA2 where almost every single fight is against waves from multiple directions. Which also why I loathed MechWarrior 5.

Another part of the fun for me is taking terrible classes and figuring out how to make them not just viable but OP. I also like tinkering with stuff, modding in some custom archetypes and doing my own tweaks.

I know I'm weird.

Edited May 20 by ShadySands

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On 5/20/2024 at 1:24 PM, ShadySands said:

I haven't been able to get into a Larian game since Dragon Commander. I wish them the best but something about their games doesn't click with me.

There's a lot of combat in the game, maybe too much, but for me it doesn't grate like it does in a game like DA2 where almost every single fight is against waves from multiple directions. Which also why I loathed MechWarrior 5.

Another part of the fun for me is taking terrible classes and figuring out how to make them not just viable but OP. I also like tinkering with stuff, modding in some custom archetypes and doing my own tweaks.

I know I'm weird.

So first of all, "ANOTHER WAVE" is seared into my brain from DA2 and I think the combat in that game is some of the worst I've played, if not THE worst. While both Owlfinders have some serious issues with their combat, they are nowhere near that level of unpleasant. 

Secondly, I am a very weird guy who likes both incomprehensible high brow and nostalgia-bait low brow, so I've got no room to **** on anyone's preferences. I've put in a lot of time to WotR so clearly they did something right, and here I am still planning on doing a whopping six runs of WotR after the last DLC drops. But for me at least, the way Larian both had consistently solid combat encounters and engaging non-combat gameplay really knocked down WotR, because WotR is almost exclusively combat focused and still doesn't particularly well.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://steamcommunity.com/games/1184370/announcements/detail/4170974735557630184?snr=2___

Looks pretty Owlbrew

Ranger - Sable Company Marine - potentially gets a superpet.

Magus - Bladebound - looks like they also get a pet, in the form of an animated weapon.

Warpriest - Mantis Zealot - Cult Leader alternative with locked diety, fighting style, and weapon type.

Kineticist- Kinetic Sharpshooter - looks like it uses bows to shoot blasts or something.

Arcanist- Magic Deceiver- Much more limited slots but gets to make custom spells. Probably a cluster****.

All things considered, I think the SCM and Bladebound show some promise depending on pet implementation while Mantis Zealot is going to be reliant on Sawtooth Sabers in game being good. I'm not optimistic about the Magic Deceiver and Kinetic Sharpshooter seems redundant for a class that is already ranged focused.

[Sven_]

Well, for all my frustrations, I've put over 80 hours into that WOTR save over the course of over two years (despite never finishing it). And Kingmaker I DID actually finish. In hindsight, that also benefited from a change of pace every once in a while. There's even some easy detective work in that chapter with the plague spreading, and you tasked to get to the source of it.

Plus, the nature of the campaign means that enemy variety was a tad higher in Kingmaker. Whereas it is mostly Demons in WOTR (which also means a lot of enemies with higher resistance to spells,.... which has side effects as to combat variety in itself as well. Btw. Unlike any other enemy defensive stats, NONE of the enemy difficulty settings makes this scale. It's the same resistance on lower as well as harder).

I mean, Owlcat's basic idea of encounters is mostly stat block vs buffs as is. Gone are the ideas of even ancient Icewind Dale 2 toying with the environment as a factor (barrels, goblin wardrums that when not destroyed would call for reinforcements, ambushes with archers protected /harder to reach because of walls). Owlcat CAN do setpiece (see Oleg's). However, most of the time, they copypaste an enemy stat block, and have you running into that over and over.

 

edit: As to Larian, I've never finished DOS as well for similar reasons. The first map obviously had seen the most luvin' (Early Access). I still fondly remember the encounter with the bomb/s on the graveyard. But: As soon as the second map, you'd run into the same orcs for a while over and over. Their combat system may have been nice. Their encounter system outside a few unique encounters got progressively worse though. Plus, unlike BG3, DOS is a game with a heavy combat focus as well. Every path through every map is gatekept by an enemy. The alternatives to combat aren't there. So the game would rely far more on superior encounter design than BG3.

Edited May 22 by Sven_

[HoonDing]

I gonna finish this Azata route and then call it a day. Pathfinder setting is overall decent enough.

Rogue Trader does not interest me.

Who knows, maybe Owlcat will be doing a Dark Eye game.

 

[Sven_]

2 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Who knows, maybe Owlcat will be doing a Dark Eye game.

 

 

Larian were one time working on one. Beware, a very young Swen Vincke inside. :d 

The travelling and camping system in both Pathfinder games is clearly inspired by the Realms Of Arkania games (the first two that had a travelling and camping system, that is). Realms Of Arkania = Dark Eye / Das Schwarze Auge.

[Gorth]

I think I put around 250 hours into WOTR so far. Completed it once, about halfway through the second play through. I have an unfortunate tendency to tunnel vision on a game that interests me until I feel burnt out on it. Then put it aside for 6-12 months, pick up my last save and rinse and repeat. That being said, the Lich does play somewhat differently in combat compared to my first Barbarian/Trickster/Legend game. Also, skipping the puzzles wherever possible, because they aren't fun after the first handful. Not a min/max player, so focusing on necromancy over flashier spells changes the balance of some encounters. Some easier, some harder, compared to brute force approaches.

edit: later boss fights needs support spells more than anything anyway, at least that was my impressions from the first time

[Hawke64]

A Dance of Masks. Not exactly informative and I am quite certain that these are combat barks from the base game, but the focus on the companions is welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sycs4vdpxYw

 

[ShadySands]

Downloading now, let's see how stable it is.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

39 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Downloading now, let's see how stable it is.

I think that's gonna depend on what mods you use.

If you do get it wo work and have the inclination, let us know what you think about the new archetypes. 

[ShadySands]

It's still downloading

Come on GOG, I actually did have time to play this earlier but now will have to see if I can squeeze it in tomorrow or Monday. I get no gaming time on the weekends just during downtime at work.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I still can't get it to work because I don't have time to play mod wack-a-mole. But I did watch a 30 minute video that showed off the archetypes, so here are my thots.

Kinetic Sharpshooter doesn't seem to have much synergy with base kineticist and has to pay for Archery feats. It doesn't gather power and instead pays burn up front. I'd have to get around to actually checking it out, but right now I'm not optimistic or very interested.

Arcane Deceiver isn't actually an Arcanist, it just hangs out there. It loses everything from that class, including spell casting. It's a 6th level spontaneous Charisma caster who draws from a very limited spell list and has a selection of subclasses that I'd say are on the same tier of feature as the sorcerer bloodlines. Notably it doesn't get bonus spells from attribute scores, doesn't get to metamagic their merged spells, and can't merge spellbooks or do the Lore Master import. I think it may be able to attempt a bluff check to not use a spell slot or something depending on subclass, but I'd rather just have more spells. Perhaps the most surprising is that the fused spell interface doesn't appear to be that much of a cluster ****, the only thing is that attack roll spells seem to be an auto-hit instead of using the roll, which means less Arcane Trickster shenanigans until at least level 14 (with respec).

Mantis Zealot has some cool powers, but it's very dependent on a specific new weapon type so will be tied to how good those are. Which I have no idea of right now.

Bladebound gets a pet....at level 12. Not sure if the pet takes up a slot or works as a summon. Not going to knock off Arcane Rider, Scion, or Sword Saint.

Living Grimoire gets locked to their book (mechanically a cold iron light mace with scaling +× bonuses) and uses Intelligence instead of Wisdom.

Chelaxian Diva gains some sonic damage abilities and can increase their Bard song DC, but most impressive is a song with a 60 foot aoe that is haste but gives bonuses that are a fifth of bard level. Doesn't lose anything particularly great either.

Inciter is an upgrade. You get sneak attack and rogue talents and can share some of that via inspired rage. On top of that you can debuff enemies in the area of inspired rage.

Titan Fighter is designed to dual wield 2-handers. You "lose" half the feats to get the Ranger's 2-handed combat style, which means you can do dual wielding without investing in Dex. Maybe it gives Mutation Warrior a run, but it could also be a decent dip to get Sword Saints the ability to use a fauchard in one hand.

Drunken Master can't be Chaotic or worship the Chad god but has an ability called "Cayden's Trick". 0/10, buggy as hell. Some abilities seem cool and now you have a way to use all the booze instead of bulk selling.

Sable Company Marine is another straight upgrade. It gets a better pet earlier and that alone makes it a good dip. You have to wait 2 levels until you grab favored enemy, at which point it progresses normally.

Bloodseeker loses all Slayer Talents to grab special magic powers (most of them copy existing spells). It also gets a bite attack and has a capstone that gives +6 Profane bonuses to Str, Dex, and Int. Not bad, but it's locked to evil and most of the spells are best spent on buffs.

[ShadySands]

So I've finally gotten to sink a little bit of time into this and I'm actually loving the Magic Deceiver so far. I don't like that he's capped at level 6 spells but I love combining spells and they are pretty powerful. My magic missiles are doing force and fire damage and my fireballs have vampiric touch lol.

[ShadySands]

I got almost to the end of the 3rd chapter and now I can't get my game to load. I ended up going Angel with my Deceiver even though Trickster seemed like a better narrative fit. I just used Toybox to merge the spell books and it was insanely powerful.

I then started a Black Blade/Sword Saint Magus but unlike the modded version, the official BB doesn't get to pick the blade, you just get a scimitar. Not sure I'll continue this game, just cleared the Shield Maze.

I wish there was a spontaneous casting Druid.

 

Edited July 11 by ShadySands

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

I got almost to the end of the 3rd chapter and now I can't get my game to load. I ended up going Angel with my Deceiver even though Trickster seemed like a better narrative fit. I just used Toybox to merge the spell books and it was insanely powerful.

I then started a Black Blade/Sword Saint Magus but unlike the modded the version, the official BB doesn't get to pick the blade, you just get a scimitar. Not sure I'll continue this game, just cleared the Shield Maze.

I wish there was a spontaneous casting Druid.

 

The game now takes 10 minutes to load with all the mods I'm running. The mod that broke it? Sawtooth Sabres can be selected with Finesse Training.

.....there's a Deceiver specific mod, I'm kind of interested in it but I want to run it as Int based....also I like metamagic.

[ShadySands]

I'm running that mod now and it makes the subclass even more powerful. I think that feats and items can still give you some access to metamagic, at least it's working for me.

[ShadySands]

On 6/14/2024 at 8:40 AM, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Arcane Deceiver isn't actually an Arcanist, it just hangs out there. It loses everything from that class, including spell casting. It's a 6th level spontaneous Charisma caster who draws from a very limited spell list and has a selection of subclasses that I'd say are on the same tier of feature as the sorcerer bloodlines. Notably it doesn't get bonus spells from attribute scores, doesn't get to metamagic their merged spells, and can't merge spellbooks or do the Lore Master import. I think it may be able to attempt a bluff check to not use a spell slot or something depending on subclass, but I'd rather just have more spells.

I just wanted to come back to this once again because now my save is working again. The bluff to not use the spell slot is awesome considering you're a charisma based caster because that pretty much translates into unlimited spells. Regarding the limited spell list, it does kinda suck but you also have some very unique spells and the Deceiver mod adds even more. I guess you could also just give yourself any spell you wanted via Toybox but I mostly got around that by combining other spells. It's great for spells that I normally don't use because they're touch or cone because all I have to do is combine it with a single target or AoE spell and now it does both spells damage and effects but in a ray or fireball or chain. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:23 PM, ShadySands said:

I just wanted to come back to this once again because now my save is working again. The bluff to not use the spell slot is awesome considering you're a charisma based caster because that pretty much translates into unlimited spells. Regarding the limited spell list, it does kinda suck but you also have some very unique spells and the Deceiver mod adds even more. I guess you could also just give yourself any spell you wanted via Toybox but I mostly got around that by combining other spells. It's great for spells that I normally don't use because they're touch or cone because all I have to do is combine it with a single target or AoE spell and now it does both spells damage and effects but in a ray or fireball or chain. 

I've looked into it some more and even without the mod it's a potentially very powerful class.

To me the issues are:

1) For the class identity I'd assume it would lean more heavily towards Illusion and Enchantment rather than blasting spells. It's not a deal breaker per se because WotR is already full of flavor/gameplay discrepancies, but for the class fantasy breaking minds seems more in line than giga lightning fireballs with 2 for the price of one spells.

2) It's not really an Arcanist but a homebrew class, complete with specific archetypes via that subclass feature selection. Again not a problem per se, but it feels like the Arcanist got shafted in terms of archetypes and I honestly like the Arcanist as a class.

3) The vanilla class design of not having many buffs and getting no bonus spells is not great. Fixed by the mod, but not a good choice. If we're talking about mods.....Twin Spell metamagic can do the double spell for the price of a +4 spell level.

[Proficiency]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:41 PM, Sven_ said:

"quantity over quality"

Oh well, wait and see I guess.