The All Things Political Topic - Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex

[Sarex]

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/us-easing-venezuela-oil-sanctions-response-election-deal-official-2023-10-18/

[Gromnir]

stated with far more brevity than our previous post:

as for the venezuelan sanctions deal, 

"Maduro's government and the opposition reached an agreement in Barbados on Tuesday on electoral guarantees for an internationally monitored vote to be held in the second half of 2024. But the deal stopped short of Maduro agreeing to reinstate opposition candidates who had been barred from public office."

that last portion is more than a little disappointing. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

the false electors cases in michigan, georgia and the fed courts has overlap, which is one reason why numerous defendants were pushing for their state trials to become fed. the problem for those defendants is each state chooses electors for the Presidency based on state laws and regulations and the individuals who were acting on behalf o' the trump campaign were not acting as officers o' the US government when they encouraged folks such as james renner to sign forgeries o' official state documents. 

for the fraudulent electors scheme to have been dreamt up simultaneous, insular and discreet in multiple states challenges credulity o' even the most naïve. am gonna suggest that trump campaign lawyers and staff were organizing the conspiracies for the benefit o' one guy: donald trump. however, while it is illogical and difficult to believe james renner could be guilty o' a conspiracy regarding fraudulent electors w/o somebody(s) from the trump campaign also being guilty, each defendant is gonna get due process. 

in any event, is multiple flippers in multiple false elector cases.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/17/greta-thunberg-arrested-at-london-oil-summit-protest

Greta Thunberg has been arrested in London, I have been warning everyone about her years. Eco-terrorism is very serious and we should all be outraged by this 

@xzar_monty I wonder if she played a part in the attack on the Finnish pipe?

[Gorth]

54 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/17/greta-thunberg-arrested-at-london-oil-summit-protest

Greta Thunberg has been arrested in London, I have been warning everyone about her years. Eco-terrorism is very serious and we should all be outraged by this 

@xzar_monty I wonder if she played a part in the attack on the Finnish pipe?

I already told people here, it wasn't a Russian job, it was disgruntled Danish oyster farmers from Bornholm that sabotaged that oil pipeline between Russia and Germany

[majestic]

Just heard the news that Christian Pilnacek died. Not that any of you need to have heard of him, he was a high ranking public official and legal practitioner attached to the Ausrian Ministry of Justice. A couple of years back he was suspended in the wake of leaked messages between high ranking ÖVP party officials that made it abundantly clear that he abused his position to stop unwanted investigations, help the "right" being promoted while keeping the "wrong" people out of positions of power (right and wrong determined by party affiliation, of course), and help to prepare party officials under investigation on how to conduct themselves during interrogation and raids they should not have been aware of before they happened.

One of those people, our former Minister of Finance, just happened to send his wife on a walk with their newborn baby when a raid happened. Curiously enough, his wife took his notebook computer for a stroll, because clearly, who does not take their mobile computer with them while strolling through the city with a newborn? Sure, the notebook was brought back eventually, by someone else. Seems legit, really. Certainly nothing untoward happened there. Needless to say, the raid did not turn up anyhting useful.

He is on record stating that an investigation into potential (read "potential" as "confirmed" in any but the legal sense) kickbacks surrounding our 2002 acquisition of 24 (reduced to 18) Typhoon fighters must be "daschlogn" (colloqual Austrian for death trough blunt force, often also used when killing insects with swatters), because said investigation would have implicated his party friends. Or, as our former chancellor liked to call his party friends: the family. 

Prior to his suspension the section of the ministery he worked at was split into two sections, reducing his influence, making him solely responsible for legislation. A little while later he sent a text to the govenor of Styria (who, as you have probably guessed by now, is also an ÖVP party member), suggesting that his wife's applicaiton as President of the Higher Regional Court of Graz would be a decent way to make good on the "humiliation" his family suffered.

Looks like he was caught driving drunk on the wrong side of the motorway yesterday evening. Police stopped him, he lost his driving license, was picked up by someone else and then by all accounts committed suicide. De mortuis nil nisi bene, I suppose, but that's a bit hard in this case. Good riddance. Burn in hell, bastard. 

[Gromnir]

"A Manhattan judge tore into former President Donald Trump on Friday for failing to delete a post attacking his clerk on his campaign page, weeks after the imposition of a gag order."

https://themessenger.com/politics/trump-gag-order-blatant-violation-judge-engoron

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 20, 2023 by Gromnir

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

Just heard the news that Christian Pilnacek died. Not that any of you need to have heard of him, he was a high ranking public official and legal practitioner attached to the Ausrian Ministry of Justice. A couple of years back he was suspended in the wake of leaked messages between high ranking ÖVP party officials that made it abundantly clear that he abused his position to stop unwanted investigations, help the "right" being promoted while keeping the "wrong" people out of positions of power (right and wrong determined by party affiliation, of course), and help to prepare party officials under investigation on how to conduct themselves during interrogation and raids they should not have been aware of before they happened.

One of those people, our former Minister of Finance, just happened to send his wife on a walk with their newborn baby when a raid happened. Curiously enough, his wife took his notebook computer for a stroll, because clearly, who does not take their mobile computer with them while strolling through the city with a newborn? Sure, the notebook was brought back eventually, by someone else. Seems legit, really. Certainly nothing untoward happened there. Needless to say, the raid did not turn up anyhting useful.

He is on record stating that an investigation into potential (read "potential" as "confirmed" in any but the legal sense) kickbacks surrounding our 2002 acquisition of 24 (reduced to 18) Typhoon fighters must be "daschlogn" (colloqual Austrian for death trough blunt force, often also used when killing insects with swatters), because said investigation would have implicated his party friends. Or, as our former chancellor liked to call his party friends: the family. 

Prior to his suspension the section of the ministery he worked at was split into two sections, reducing his influence, making him solely responsible for legislation. A little while later he sent a text to the govenor of Styria (who, as you have probably guessed by now, is also an ÖVP party member), suggesting that his wife's applicaiton as President of the Higher Regional Court of Graz would be a decent way to make good on the "humiliation" his family suffered.

Looks like he was caught driving drunk on the wrong side of the motorway yesterday evening. Police stopped him, he lost his driving license, was picked up by someone else and then by all accounts committed suicide. De mortuis nil nisi bene, I suppose, but that's a bit hard in this case. Good riddance. Burn in hell, bastard. 

You know, you could've just started with the "driving drunk" bit and I would've already said "good".

25 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

"A Manhattan judge tore into former President Donald Trump on Friday for failing to delete a post attacking his clerk on his campaign page, weeks after the imposition of a gag order."

https://themessenger.com/politics/trump-gag-order-blatant-violation-judge-engoron

HA! Good Fun!

Still waiting for the consequences of continuing to do everything he's not supposed to do, seemingly but hopefully not actually forevermore...the wheels of justice just seem to be too slow for a creature like Trump.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Gromnir]

Kenneth Chesebro: Pro-Trump attorney who helped craft fake elector plot pleads guilty in Georgia election subversion case

An attorney who worked to undermine the results of the 2020 election, Chesebro helped develop the Trump’s campaign’s plot to put forward unauthorized slates of GOP electors in Georgia and six other states. (In previous court filings, Chesebro’s lawyers have denied that he devised the plan.)

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

@Hurlshort

https://sanjosetheaters.org/theaters/san-jose-civic/#event=reclaiming-food;instance=20231028120000

you should make t-shirts. "i spent $250 to see rfk jr. and all i got was a (another) lousy measles outbreak."

but serious, even in san jose, who is spending $250 to hear a bunch o' crackpots repeat the same doggerel they is sharing for free online?

edit: 

Ex-Chief of Staff Mark Meadows granted immunity, tells special counsel he warned Trump about 2020 claims: Sources

meadows cooperation were assumed back in june but it were a tea leaves reading situation. also, keep in mind this is  an "according to sources," story which ain't been confirmed, so am advising caution. 

update:

am gonna repeat our caution about placing too much trust in online "according to sources," reporting.  narrow use immunity for meadows as 'posed to blanket use and derivative is a plausible explanation, but am thinking by now a few obsidian posters recognize that we got a policy o' waiting for reliable evidence before we start proselytizing.

is so many ways to look like an internet a$$bag, so why set yourself up for predictable tyson fury moments when a little patience will insulate you from deserved mockery? 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

new speaker is this guy

house republicans respond to questions about mike johnson's january 6 activities

johnson were also one o' the +90 republicans who voted against extending the government shutdown deadline.

and judge engoron imposed "serious sanctions" for trump once more violating the court's gag order: $10,000 fine.

...

le sigh

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Bartimaeus]

33 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

and judge engoron imposed "serious sanctions" for trump once more violating the court's gag order: $10,000 fine.

...

le sigh

As the man himself said - absolutely rightly, though obviously for totally wrong reasons - it's a two-tiered justice system, so until I see the man in a cell or his head on a pike, my mental health will be better if I don't read any more idiot headlines about Trump and whatever latest terrible and/or stupid thing he's done. There have been approximately a bazillion "Trump will surely face consequences for what he's done this time" headlines written over the past 8+ years, written or said by what feels like literally thousands of different journalists, politicians, historians, authors, bloggers, talking heads et al., enough that practically everyone should be completely inured to them and their utter pointlessness no matter how serious they may seem. Justice will arrive when it finally does and not a moment sooner...or not: reading speculation, opinion pieces, or expert analysis about it won't get us there any faster, and it's just not very interesting or encouraging to re-hash it again and again and again at this point.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

As the man himself said - absolutely rightly, though obviously for totally wrong reasons - it's a two-tiered justice system, so until I see the man in a cell or his head on a pike, my mental health will be better if I don't read any more idiot headlines about Trump and whatever latest terrible and/or stupid thing he's done. 

this is maybe not the most illustrative situation for showing evidence o' a two-tiered justice system. 

defendants rare get gag orders and am not having a recollection o' a person violating such an order multiple times. is obvious that in a civil case normal person ain't gonna give the proverbial middle finger to the judge who is deciding whether to dissolve your business permanent as well as generating an appropriate fine for fraud already found particular when the da is asking for $250 million. 

but the thing is, the judge's options is limited. finding trump in contempt o' court is a reasonable next step... and then what? is not something people is taught in school, but contempt orders is not punitive. what that means is the judge is only s'posed to fine or jail in an effort to correct bad behaviour. 

am sure there is other examples, but the only long duration jail times am recalling related to contempt is in cases involving journalists. there is certain situations where a journalist may be compelled to give up their source, but what if the journalist refuses to do so. what if the journalist says they will never give up their source? how much time jail time does a judge get to play with if she wants to test the journalist's resolve? a day? a week? months? is not a fixed time, but journalists have beaten contempt orders by being stubborn. prove no amount o' jail time will compel compliance with the court order and the result is the journalist goes free. 

as we noted, am not able to recall multiple fails o' a gag order, but you think judge engoron checked? we would not be surprised if first time fails in judge engoron's jurisdiction has resulted in $5000 fines and improbable second fails saw a $10000 fine. am having no idea what were the previous judge responses to what we assume is a near mythic strike three on a gag order violation, but let's assume is jail time. is nevertheless gonna be uncharted territory, no?  as a matter o' practicality, am not sure how jail would work for an ex-President and his security detail. even then, what length o' time do you give trump? a couple hours? a day? what length o' time results in trump not violating in the future? is there any time span which would make sense? 

is the trump gag order silliness evidence o' a two-tiered-justice system or is it an example o' how stoopid it were to make a narcissistic sociopath like trump President in the first place?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

but let's assume is jail time. is nevertheless gonna be uncharted territory, no?  as a matter o' practicality, am not sure how jail would work for an ex-President and his security detail

 

Interesting question... hypothetical situation (not trump violating any and all court orders), what if his past actions catches up sees him sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence?

Would he have a Secret Service detail stationed outside his cell door the next 10 years?

(open question, not Gromnir specifically, he just raised the interesting point)

 

Edit: taking my line of thought into absurd extremes, if an ex-president got sentenced to hanging for treason, would the SS agents be required to take up arms against law enforcement in order to try to protect their designated charge?...

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Edit: taking my line of thought into absurd extremes, if an ex-president got sentenced to hanging for treason, would the SS agents be required to take up arms against law enforcement in order to try to protect their designated charge?...

You're entering Joseph Heller territory here. Good!

[Bartimaeus]

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

this is maybe not the most illustrative situation for showing evidence o' a two-tiered justice system. 

I won't argue with the rest of what you said, because you're right, BUT...a $5000 fine can be a crippling debt to a poor person - another $10000 on top of that could ruin them. Simply the threat is usually very effective in preventing this kind of behavior. For a 'billionaire' like Trump, it's nothing, so of course he doesn't care: his money has bought him the right to flout the rules, as money always seems to. It'd be nice to one day see the U.S.'s fines based off of a percentage of wealth/income, it'd at least be a start in reforming our broken justice system (though even that wouldn't be nearly analogous enough, what with the disparity of disposable money between different classes of wealth).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[xzar_monty]

8 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I won't argue with the rest of what you said, because you're right, BUT...a $5000 fine can be a crippling debt to a poor person - another $10000 on top of that could ruin them. Simply the threat is usually very effective in preventing this kind of behavior. For a 'billionaire' like Trump, it's nothing, so of course he doesn't care: his money has bought him the right to flout the rules, as money always seems to. It'd be nice to one day see the U.S.'s fines based off of a percentage of wealth/income, it'd at least be a start in reforming our broken justice system.

We in fact have that percentage-based system in Finland, and it doesn't work too badly at all, it has to be said.

As for the $5000 fine to a poor person, you're quite right. I am reminded of a relatively poor person receiving a fine of that order in California and getting into serious trouble with it. And then, of course, the first difficulties in paying it resulted in even more difficulties of other kind, and even harsher trouble. As a person close to me pointed out, "That's the circle of poverty right there." Your word, ruin, is aptly chosen.

As for the broken justice system: I suppose there's fairly widespread acceptance that the system is broken, but I have never seen any real drive from the citizens to even try to fix it. Perhaps there's a sense of hopelessness about it? Anyway, as I've said it before, it makes me think of Russia. The US citizens appear just as helpless.

[Gromnir]

58 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I won't argue with the rest of what you said, because you're right, BUT...a $5000 fine can be a crippling debt to a poor person - another $10000 on top of that could ruin them. Simply the threat is usually very effective in preventing this kind of behavior. For a 'billionaire' like Trump, it's nothing, so of course he doesn't care: his money has bought him the right to flout the rules, as money always seems to. It'd be nice to one day see the U.S.'s fines based off of a percentage of wealth/income, it'd at least be a start in reforming our broken justice system (though even that wouldn't be nearly analogous enough, what with the disparity of disposable money between different classes of wealth).

 

keep in mind that in a typical civil case such as the carnival fodder geek show trump is current participating when it doesn't interfere with bedminster golf tournaments and his voluntary dj duties down in mar-a-lago, the point is to make the plaintiff whole.  am knowing bartimaeus wants trump to get his comeuppance, but a civil trial such as e.j. carrol and trump's current ny fraud case is not designed to make that happen.

however, in many jurisdictions you also got punitive damages. 

 

maybe persons think all civil cases should award punitive damages, 'course am suspecting barti is jaded enough to suspect that the way mcdonalds and other sooper rich defendants pay for punitive damages is to pass along the cost to customers or lower employee compensation, so...

regardless, civil cases is by design meant to make plaintiffs whole and not to punish defendants. if you want a metaphorical pound o' flesh, then criminal is where such happens. the Constitution and the criminal codes o' fed and states takes serious the notion that it is better that ten guilty should go free rather than that one innocent man suffer. the state has to go through all kinda effort to successful prosecute a defendant and unlike most o' europe and the western world, we got curiosities such as the exclusionary rule which means even if a person is guilty they nevertheless might go free if a cop or prosecutor made a mistake. is all kinda arcane rules in the US justice system which benefit defendants... IF you are able to afford the best defense team possible.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!

[xzar_monty]

53 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

is all kinda arcane rules in the US justice system which benefit defendants... IF you are able to afford the best defense team possible.

Would you care to elaborate on why it depends so much on your defense team? Does the "arcane" there mean that not all defense teams are aware of all the rules, for instance?

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Would you care to elaborate on why it depends so much on your defense team? Does the "arcane" there mean that not all defense teams are aware of all the rules, for instance?

if you are a solo practitioner, chances are you got a secretary/law clerk and maybe you could hire an investigator for special cases. if you are an ordinary middle-class or lower middle-class defendant/plaintiff, chances are you try and hire the best attorney you are able to afford, and is likely you get a solo practitioner.

law is based on precedent and statute. research alone is a cumbersome task and your westlaw and lexus/nexus subscriptions means unlike decades past, you don't literal need go to the law library in 2023, but chances are you cannot delve too much into obscure details o' the case. is just too much ground to cover for even minor cases to go beyond broad strokes. time and money.

research is just start as there is pretrial motions to compel and to dismiss and you gotta prepare for depositions, interrogatories and do discovery. gotta go through all evidence supplied by prosecutor or opposing party and then decide if is something missing. typical for complex civil cases such as at issue with trump's fraud situation, you got years o' business documents, emails, and phone records to contend with as well as dozens o' potential witnesses. time and money.

as a solo practitioner you probable won't have an investigator for most cases, but for serious crime or complex civil it makes sense to spend the extra money. you and your investigator, who is also likely a solo entity needing do all their legwork by their lonesome, need decide quick how to best spend limited time and resources. often that means the only person you got a chance to genuine investigate is your own client, 'cause they is the one most likely to f' your case.  time and...

everything an attorney does on behalf o' their client takes time, time which could be spent on other clients and other cases. bill clients don't necessarily mean you get paid by clients. you got a duty to represent your client to the best o' your ability, but you are not gonna be in business for long as a solo practitioner if you fail to recognize who your client is and what they are able to actual afford, and regardless, chances are you ain't gonna be paid in full. 

etc.

being a solo practitioner is a tough racket unless you stick to deeds, wills, estates and trusts... or you get into collections. 

btw, public defenders is so not as portrayed on tv. public defenders is different than court appointed attorneys who is likely solo practitioners. am not sure where the public defender myths got started, but those folks know what they are doing and they don't just hire any bum off the street who passed the bar exam to be a public defender. SCOTUS Justice Ketanji Brown were a public defender after she graduated both undergrad and law school from harvard.  is rare that a public defender is anything other than an excellent attorney well versed in law and highly experienced. however, the one thing tv gets right is that public defenders is criminal overworked and they just don't have the resources available to them that the da or a high priced law firm has. time and money. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 26, 2023 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

We don't really have an economics/business thread, but I guess it is tangentially related to politics, as I suspect it will inevitably become a headache for politicians, not just in Beijing

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67191262

 

The Chinese property developer Evergrande owes more than $325bn (£269bn). That's more than Russia's entire national debt.

For two years, the company has been lurching from crisis to crisis, repeatedly failing to make payments on its multi-billion dollar loans.

Now its billionaire chairman is under police surveillance, its shares are practically worthless and more than a million people in China are still waiting for their homes to be completed.

 

I guess my first question would be, why was there so little (none) oversight with this company's dealings and doings?

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

We don't really have an economics/business thread, but I guess it is tangentially related to politics, as I suspect it will inevitably become a headache for politicians, not just in Beijing

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67191262

 

The Chinese property developer Evergrande owes more than $325bn (£269bn). That's more than Russia's entire national debt.

For two years, the company has been lurching from crisis to crisis, repeatedly failing to make payments on its multi-billion dollar loans.

Now its billionaire chairman is under police surveillance, its shares are practically worthless and more than a million people in China are still waiting for their homes to be completed.

 

I guess my first question would be, why was there so little (none) oversight with this company's dealings and doings?

 

Thats a good read  and its  an example of  the inherent  risks and failures  with how the CCP  runs  China, its a hybrid  of  Communism\state control  and  Capitalism 

The  entire failed "  Zero-Covid "  Chinese policy would have exacerbated the property crisis  and accelerated  the problem

But the article   also explains how this  happened  or  the contributing factors   that  created this crisis 

" Evergrande's rise was fuelled by heavy borrowing to build houses for middle-class Chinese looking to make money from property. But property developers borrowed too much money to build too many houses that not enough people want to buy"

And then what made it worse 

"Things came to a head in 2020 when the government, fearing a bubble in the property market, introduced new financial regulatory guidelines, known as its "three red lines'

They severely restricted developers' ability to borrow more money, eventually causing the crisis that has mired Evergrande and the rest of China's property sector.

For China's leaders, the painful but necessary measure was the only way to rein in unsustainable debt. Except they didn't anticipate how much worse it would get, especially as China's economy took a hit from sweeping zero-Covid lockdowns'

 

 

 

 

[Bartimaeus]

Former Vice President Mike Pence has suspended his presidential campaign. I don't know if this really qualifies as news.

[BruceVC]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67284812

SA is  hosting a   very successful AGOA (African Growth and Opportunity Act ) summit

This act  is basically a very significant trade deal with the US and gives African  countries  reduced  tariffs  to US markets. Four African countries (CAR, Uganda, Niger  and Gabon ) were suspended for military coups and human rights  abuses

AGOA is the  type of trade deal that is lacking from BRICS and its  also why I maintain BRICS is primarily a talkshop 

 

[Sarex]

How are the power outages nowadays?