Ukraine Conflict - Continues

[Amentep]

Old thread - 

 

[Zoraptor]

le sigh.

Both these guys have had interviews, as part of the UAF, with western media. The guy on the right- callsign Fortuna- with fricking CNN.

Reflexive claims of false flag whenever Ukrainians do something wrong is almost as annoying as everyone with so much as a skerrick of critical thinking being a 'Russian shill'.

Even better, the guy on the left is exactly the sort of guy- self proclaimed- who'd be immensely proud of things like shooting up civilians cars, and think it was the height of bravery and publicising it a great idea.

[Mamoulian War]

Latest estimate of Russian losses by NATO Commander-Chief in Europe.
 

 

[xzar_monty]

@Zoraptor, so who's the guy on the left? I've no idea.

[Zoraptor]

Denis Kapustin/ Nikitin "White Rex". He's a notorious neo nazi. Founder of the Russian Volunteer Corps, which has been fighting for Ukraine since at least September last year, and has been mentioned multiple times in that context by western media (which, and personally I am amazed at this, they seem to have forgotten about, now. eg, NYTimes just one outlet who interviewed him)

Picked mostly because it's from before 2022 or the last few days, so can't be accused by either side of being biased by recent events:

"..Those guys slowly gathering before the fights? Their tattoos feature symbols with neo-Nazi connotations such as the SS runic insignia. Their t-shirts are from well-known far-right fashion brands. That man running around like he’s the manager? He’s Denis Nikitin, a notorious neo-Nazi who has personally trained far-right extremists across Europe in combat, and has been called one of the most dangerous figures on Europe’s far right.

Here in Kyiv, at a venue owned and operated by Ukraine’s far-right Azov movement..

..Nikitin, now based in Kyiv, has urged his followers to train up for violence against Muslims and migrants.." New Republic, July 9 2019.

 

[xzar_monty]

Thanks. You can of course find all sorts of people pretty much everywhere, but then it is inarguably true that Ukraine does have serious problems with corruption and such, and at least some kind of problems with neo-nazism within its borders (I don't know how big these problems are, but they aren't sweepable under the carpet).

The Finnish parliament recently voted about joining NATO. One of the very few to oppose the idea is a guy who argues that the situation in Ukraine has no ramifications at all for Finland and recently asked the Finnish PM how Finland, as a country, is going to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the Finno-Russian non-aggression pact. (Her reply: "Given the circumstances, we are probably not going to celebrate it at all." And that's all she said, applaudably.) For me, one interesting question is whether this guy actually receives some kind of support from the east or whether he's simply the proverbial "useful idiot". I really don't know, but I'd like to.

Btw, this guy is also a confirmed racist and has actually had his business severely damaged as a result, i.e. he's lost some serious customers because of what he's said. I don't know if this is the case, but I think it's quite likely that he also doesn't write all that well, so that if you were to see his social media posts, for instance, they'd quickly betray a demonstratable lack in various kinds of education. It's interesting how many folks like this share certain characteristics...

Edited March 5, 2023 by xzar_monty

[pmp10]

An interesting summary of bombing strikes on Ukrainian grid so far - 255 infrastructure hits until today.

As expected 80% of strikes were aimed at high-voltage transformer stations.
Initially they were having strong effect too - the blackouts in Kiev quickly reached 50% level but it never got much worse.
Seems the strikes provided diminishing returns which was opposite of what was expected. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by pmp10

[Mamoulian War]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Thanks. You can of course find all sorts of people pretty much everywhere, but then it is inarguably true that Ukraine does have serious problems with corruption and such, and at least some kind of problems with neo-nazism within its borders (I don't know how big these problems are, but they aren't sweepable under the carpet).

The Finnish parliament recently voted about joining NATO. One of the very few to oppose the idea is a guy who argues that the situation in Ukraine has no ramifications at all for Finland and recently asked the Finnish PM how Finland, as a country, is going to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the Finno-Russian non-aggression pact. (Her reply: "Given the circumstances, we are probably not going to celebrate it at all." And that's all she said, applaudably.) For me, one interesting question is whether this guy actually receives some kind of support from the east or whether he's simply the proverbial "useful idiot". I really don't know, but I'd like to.

Btw, this guy is also a confirmed racist and has actually had his business severely damaged as a result, i.e. he's lost some serious customers because of what he's said. I don't know if this is the case, but I think it's quite likely that he also doesn't write all that well, so that if you were to see his social media posts, for instance, they'd quickly betray a demonstratable lack in various kinds of education. It's interesting how many folks like this share certain characteristics...

I am sorry, but If anyone thinks that Ukraine has problem with Neo-Nazism, than he is very very wrong. There are no Neo-Nazi MPs in Ukrainian parliament for many many many years. So if people are judging whole country by few nationalists, which do not have any political influence in the country, what would say that for Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Netherlands, and many more EU countries, which have big bunch of Neonazis in their local governments, and even in EU parliament, and can influence the laws on multinational level? Neonazis in Ukraine is just a scapegoat of Russian propaganda nothing else. Same as it was a scapegoat for Soviet Union, when tey purged 22 thousand officers of Polish Army in Katyn.

On the other hand, this is an example of Russian Officer, which came to Ukraine to denacify it… Especially the last 10 seconds of the video…

Edit: oh and the finish guy is a prime example of average supporter of Russia within EU. He is either useful idiot, paid by russia, neonazi or tankie (i do not know a better term for that “diagnosis” as bunching all of the leftists into Putin loving herd, is very very bad generalization)…

[Malcador]

34 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

So if people are judging whole country by few nationalists, which do not have any political influence in the country

That's pretty funny to read in this thread.  Also you then go on to highlight one Russian guy, heh.

Suppose it's just how many Nazis you are ok with before it's a problem. 

[xzar_monty]

40 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

I am sorry, but If anyone thinks that Ukraine has problem with Neo-Nazism, than he is very very wrong. There are no Neo-Nazi MPs in Ukrainian parliament for many many many years. So if people are judging whole country by few nationalists, which do not have any political influence in the country, what would say that for Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Netherlands, and many more EU countries

Your manner of arguing isn't very convincing, nor is it conducive for a reasonable discussion.

I did not judge a whole country on the basis of a few nationalists. Nor did I suggest that (some of) the countries you mention do not have a problem with neo-nazis. Also, neo-nazism can most definitely be a problem even if there aren't any neo-nazis in the parliament. It's always both amusing and disappointing to have one's words misconstrued.

If you go back and read what I wrote, you will notice how I pointed out that I cannot be certain of the severity of the problem. If you know a lot more about this than I do, then I think the most appropriate response would be to correct me where I am wrong. And maybe, you know, keep your emotional reaction out of the discussion altogether?

I realize that my response can be read as patronizing, but that's not my intent.

[HoonDing]

Prigozhin is a mix of Marshal Zhukov and the old Iraqi minister of information.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

That's pretty funny to read in this thread.  Also you then go on to highlight one Russian guy, heh.

Suppose it's just how many Nazis you are ok with before it's a problem. ?

What is Putin doing about  all the  Neo-Nazis in Russia, do you think he sees that as a problem?

[xzar_monty]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What is Putin doing about  all the  Neo-Nazis in Russia, do you think he sees that as a problem?

But again, this is not what we were talking about. There have been some erroneous claims of whataboutism on various iterations of this thread. Can you recognize that you yourself are now changing the subject?

"Country A has a problem with X", says someone. If your response to that is to say, "But what about the leader of country B and their problem with X", that's not rational discussion.

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, xzar_monty said:

But again, this is not what we were talking about. There have been some erroneous claims of whataboutism on various iterations of this thread. Can you recognize that you yourself are now changing the subject?

"Country A has a problem with X", says someone. If your response to that is to say, "But what about the leader of country B and their problem with X", that's not rational discussion.

Yes, Im asking a separate question. Not all posts are related, Im asking Malc if he thinks  Putin worries about the Neo-Nazi in Russia like he is  concerned about the neo-nazi in Ukraine enough to  " justify  " an invasion 

[xzar_monty]

And on an unrelated topic, here's something particularly baffling from the British intelligence front. No idea about whether this is true or not and to what degree, but the fact that something like this is posted is a bit strange, to me at least.

 

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

And on an unrelated topic, here's something particularly baffling from the British intelligence front. No idea about whether this is true or not and to what degree, but the fact that something like this is posted is a bit strange, to me at least.

 

What a story if its  true....attacking a bunker with shovels 

[Zoraptor]

It probably is true, because it actually does work. The biggest fortress in Belgium in WW2 got stormed by a handful of lightly armed paratroopers* at odds of 1:3 (yes, that actually is 1 paratrooper to 3 defenders, no typo, with the defenders behind meter(s) thick reinforced concrete and rammed earth). And to be frank, most actual descriptions of the tactics being used are reminiscent of WW1, but just not what most people think of as WW1- ie Stoss, not human waves. Stosstruppen were ludicrously effective, for WW1. I have the rather strong suspicion that the whole thing is rather deliberate as they know perfectly well that people are primed to think of WW1 along Pals Brigades walking into machine gun fire lines.

*You can also make any description of equipment sound silly pretty easily- to whit, here's the equipment for paratroopers from WW2. Note the abundant and near ubiquitous trenching spades...

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Suppose it's just how many Nazis you are ok with before it's a problem. 

The real problem is that it's Azov again, and they're part of the official Ukrainian military and have been for years. If they're part of the military they're your responsibility.

Having said that everyone should expect at least some nazis in anyone's military. If you don't, you're not living in reality. More in mercenaries, since the recruitment is looser and there's often a certain... reputational enhancement from having hard arses there, even if they actually turn out as kind of pathetic most of the time. You don't expect a country to fold nazis into their military, and for the media to run a concerted campaign to whitewash them. Well, maybe you expect the latter. There are also, it has to be said, rather a lot of fans of pagan symbols, Jains/ Buddhists, norse enthusiasts and similar in 'regular*' UAF units.

*regular in quotes because it does seem to be disproportionately meme brigades and foreign volunteers rather than genuinely regular ###th Brigade. Including at least one purported New Zealander, it has to be said. Kind of funny our media running interference though, Brenton Tarrant the Christchurch Mosque shooter was a proven Azov associate.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

What is Putin doing about  all the  Neo-Nazis in Russia, do you think he sees that as a problem?

Beats me, I assume nothing or maybe can chuck them in to Wagner to die like all Nazis should.   But is a common blight, Ukraine is no different and doesn't indicate the entire state are Nazis.

Was funny to see that tool Massaro with an Azov flag, incidentally

[Mamoulian War]

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

That's pretty funny to read in this thread.  Also you then go on to highlight one Russian guy, heh.

Suppose it's just how many Nazis you are ok with before it's a problem. 

It is a problem, if a country (which by the way, has the most numerous neonazi organizations in the world) who is claiming, that started a war with denacification being their main goal, is having their army led by neonazis, who are considering ethnic cleansings as a just cause, and still blaming the victim, being the real nazis  

and it is also a problem, when a president of that big country is awarding Neonazis like Utkin and Rogozin with the highest state awards, and give them the most prominent positions in state aparatus.

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Your manner of arguing isn't very convincing, nor is it conducive for a reasonable discussion.

I did not judge a whole country on the basis of a few nationalists. Nor did I suggest that (some of) the countries you mention do not have a problem with neo-nazis. Also, neo-nazism can most definitely be a problem even if there aren't any neo-nazis in the parliament. It's always both amusing and disappointing to have one's words misconstrued.

If you go back and read what I wrote, you will notice how I pointed out that I cannot be certain of the severity of the problem. If you know a lot more about this than I do, then I think the most appropriate response would be to correct me where I am wrong. And maybe, you know, keep your emotional reaction out of the discussion altogether?

I realize that my response can be read as patronizing, but that's not my intent.

 

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

But again, this is not what we were talking about. There have been some erroneous claims of whataboutism on various iterations of this thread. Can you recognize that you yourself are now changing the subject?

"Country A has a problem with X", says someone. If your response to that is to say, "But what about the leader of country B and their problem with X", that's not rational discussion.

well OK, I am sometimes pretty emotional about the topics, as my “adopted” ukrainian boy is back in Ukraine for few months, and is in the age, when he can get conscripted. My emotions were not pointed towards you though, and I did not meant to blame you that you are meaning that UA is Neonazis, as I am pretty much aware, of your opinions and so on… looking back at it, I just should not have quoted you, which might probably be clearer, that I was speaking in general.

You know, I have to hear every day hours upon hours from clueless people, like the politician you mentioned in your previous posts, how COVID never existed and Russia is not attacking civilians, only nazis, which practicaly do not exist in any meaningful form in Ukraine, compared to the countries, which I named above. And reading here some people pointing everytime how bad was UA to RU, while completely denouncing what RU has and still is doing to them, can sometimes fire me up…

Anyway, if I shall correct you, from what I know, UA had never severe problem with neonazism, compared to their neighbours, with the exception of Belarus. Yes some neonazis are in UA army, like everywhere in the world, and again, as far as I know, the number is again insignificant comapred to every other neighbouring country with the exception of Belarus again.

And the another correction would be the alleged whataboutism. I do not know, if that was at me, or at Bruce, but in the case if it was at me, well, some people (not you) are talking about widespread Neonazism in UA, and are completely ignorant to the fact, that there are currently more Russian neonazis in UA, than there ever were Ukrainian neonazis. And these Russian neonazis, like the one from the interview I have posted, are there with only one goal. Ethnic cleansing, with the blessing of their government.

[Gorth]

Well, that sort of makes the following statement true... Ukraine is full of Neo Nazis... it's just not full of Ukrainian Neo Nazis.

Heck, anywhere in the world that has Sky News/Fox News (same thing) seems to have sizeable portions of either established Neo Nazis or wannabe Neo Nazis, as they appear to be the target of Murdoch's media empire. Anecdotal alright, but from personal experience such is the case down here (i.e. Murdoch's goons outlets riling up people to do violent protests against Covid measures, tax reforms, same sex marriage, alternatives to fossil energy, separation of church and state, better education, crack downs on corruption etc., all the things that threatens right wing governments)

 

[Zoraptor]

Bringing up any Russian neonazis isn't really whataboutism since it's relevant and you can argue in good faith about which side is worse in that respect. Don't think anyone would argue that Russia is anywhere close to lily white on the matter anyway. Only becomes s problem when, like labeling everything as false flag, it becomes a reflexive defence mechanism.

OTOH, there's been plenty of distinctly unflattering analysis on the number of neo nazis in Azov and the like and the overt support they got from the government in Ukraine before it became fashionable to label them all as just loving the iconography- eg by Bellingcat, usually a darling of the proUA side. Plus, of course, the plethora of memorials to and streets named after Stepan Bandera in western Ukraine.

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Well, that sort of makes the following statement true... Ukraine is full of Neo Nazis... it's just not full of Ukrainian Neo Nazis.

Heck, anywhere in the world that has Sky News/Fox News (same thing) seems to have sizeable portions of either established Neo Nazis or wannabe Neo Nazis, as they appear to be the target of Murdoch's media empire. Anecdotal alright, but from personal experience such is the case down here (i.e. Murdoch's goons outlets riling up people to do violent protests against Covid measures, tax reforms, same sex marriage, alternatives to fossil energy, separation of church and state, better education, crack downs on corruption etc., all the things that threatens right wing governments)

 

Uncle Rupes is a utter knob, but he's just playing a big C Conservative knob, not a nazi one. And it is very much playing, dudes married to an asian women (half his age, and after dropping his long term wife with whom he had his children; great conservative values there mate) after all. The actual nazi encouragement tends to come from the fringe networks; Murdoch has just found that conservatives are easy to get outraged. Fox and especially Sky* are pretty tame, comparatively. It's mostly that Murdoch owns so much Australian media...

*Australian Sky, UK Sky is owned by Comcast now, NZ Sky was never owned by Murdoch.

[BruceVC]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/only-putin-can-break-russia-ukraine-stalemate-germanys-chancellor-says/ar-AA18ffP3 

Scholz reasonable views on negotiations and finding peace, to quote

"There will be no decisions without the Ukrainians," Scholz said, saying Putin had clearly misjudged "the strength of Ukraine" as well as the "unity" of "all the friends of Ukraine" in challenging the Russian invasion, which began in February 2022.

He added: "It is very difficult to judge what will be the next things to happen in Ukraine, but there is something which is absolutely clear: We will continue to support Ukraine with financial, humanitarian aid but also with weapons."

Also for those that didnt see it in the link is the video of  Lavrov who  was in India and he got laughed at when he suggested " the war was launched at us " 

[xzar_monty]

9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Having said that everyone should expect at least some nazis in anyone's military.

Precisely. Similarly, everyone should expect at least some serious bigots in anyone's police forces, simply for reasons of human temperament. A person interested in being a policeman is overwhelmingly likely to be of conservative temperament, and a certain proportion of conservatives are going to be extreme in their convictions. This is an ineradicable phenomenon, I think.

Conversely, you are not going to get many conservatives in a travelling theater troupe, for instance.

@Mamoulian War, fair enough! No problem.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Precisely. Similarly, everyone should expect at least some serious bigots in anyone's police forces,

What about Israel, do they have Nazis in there security forces