How Does Infestation Of Maggots Work and Is It Good?

[patronkus]

So Infestation of Maggots lists a damage value but that isn't what enemies take all the time? The listed value is the maximum and you get closer to that number as enemy HP decreases? Is this how it works?

[Okkes]

It's not a good spell but since you dont have much in level 3 slot you can use it. It's raw damage after all, you get 0 damage when your enemies has %100 health but when they drop below like %50 health you can see 30-40 damage per tick.

[dgray62]

IoM is a DoT spell, with damage done inversely proportional to the enemy's health, such that the damage of IoM increases as an enemy's health decreases. It does no damage to healthy foes, but does substantial damage per tick to near death foes. Needless to say, it's not so great on its own, but it's fantastic in conjunction with other DoT or pulsing spells like Plague of Insects or Relentless Storm. I always cast it after casting one or two of them. In conjunction with them it will really melt most foes. I also use it, in conjunction with Insect Swarm usually, to take out sigils.

[thelee]

I actually think it's a great spell. Of course you're going to be doing other stuff to the enemy (hopefully), so the fact that it doesn't do much to healthy enemies isn't that big of a deal. 

iirc it does a base of 10 raw damage per tick, and scales from nothing at full health to gradually max damage at lower. So you'll always do some damage. The biggest advantage in the DoT scheme of things is the fact that it's raw and that it has a massive area of effect. Insect Swarm is great, but has a tiny AoE. Plus, IoM isn't the frequently-immune poison, which really hurts Plague of Insects a lot.

Won't do you much in 1 on 1s typically (unless it's like a boss with infinity AR), but always feels great to drop in a big fight.

[patronkus]

3 hours ago, dgray62 said:

IoM is a DoT spell, with damage done inversely proportional to the enemy's health, such that the damage of IoM increases as an enemy's health decreases. It does no damage to healthy foes, but does substantial damage per tick to near death foes. Needless to say, it's not so great on its own, but it's fantastic in conjunction with other DoT or pulsing spells like Plague of Insects or Relentless Storm. I always cast it after casting one or two of them. In conjunction with them it will really melt most foes. I also use it, in conjunction with Insect Swarm usually, to take out sigils.

Agree, it does nothing by iteself by the obvious combo for me is Plague of Insects into IoM. 2 ticking dots at once and once grows more powerful over time accelerating the rate of damage.

[NotDumbEnough]

It is quite powerful by itself. Keep in mind that Power Level scaling for damage over time effects is always very powerful since you are double dipping (both damage per tick and number of ticks), and with high Might and PL you are looking at a maximum of ~20 damage per tick. Even at half that value for bloodied enemies it is very nice for a low level spell.

[Elric Galad]

I would say it's rather bad, but not terrible.

Let's say it has an average of 5 raw damages per tick (average between 0 and 10). It would be inferior to Insect Swarm damage from Tier 2, lower duration, without additional effect but the AoE indeed compensates.

The issue is that I find "average of 5 raw damages per tick" super optimistic because it is an AoE spell.

In a group of foes, you usually like to focus vs one at a time. That's not 100% true but still. A couple of foes would be on their way to Death (so <50%) while the others would still be in their 75%ish+ health. In practice the average damages is more around 3 base raw per tick, which isn't enough.

Later on, there would be more foes around blooded, but a couple already down. Damages would be better and rather good then, but at this stage the spell is basically a Win-more.

It doesn't help that some abilities just destroys foes when Near Death. Bonus damages vs Near Death is often mehish for this other reason.

 

In a nutshell, even if the spell has its merits (large AoE, no Poison tag, as the others said), but I found it disappointing in practice (BPM increased its base damages to 0-15 raw per tick).

Edited October 5, 2022 by Elric Galad

[masterty66]

I think the nice thing about this spell is the massive radius on it. You can just fire it and forget it and it will contribute bonus damage while you chip away the enemy with other dots/abilities.

[thelee]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

In a group of foes, you usually like to focus vs one at a time. That's not 100% true but still. A couple of foes would be on their way to Death (so <50%) while the others would still be in their 75%ish+ health. In practice the average damages is more around 3 base raw per tick, which isn't enough.

echoing @masterty66, in practice, since we're on a druid, we're talking about lots of aoe effects, frequently also in the form of dots. as a result, IoM will overperform quite a bit, especially compared to a hypothetical close-to-1v1 scenario.

 

I also think you're understating the aoe as a bonus. by proportion, IoM has 10x the area of insect swarm. You can literally impact the entire battlefield with infestation of maggots, where sometimes you might struggle to get more than one target out of insect swarm. it's basically a one-cast fire and forget.

[dgray62]

I think it is an amazing spell that I always pick for druids in my party. While Teheku can't pick the insect spells he can select IoM for some reason. As a druid I'll usually cast plague of insects/ relentless storm/ nature's terror (maybe 2 of those 3) followed by IoM, then shift and go to town. It's amazing how quickly enemies disintegrate under that spell barrage. 

[patronkus]

2 hours ago, dgray62 said:

I think it is an amazing spell that I always pick for druids in my party. While Teheku can't pick the insect spells he can select IoM for some reason. As a druid I'll usually cast plague of insects/ relentless storm/ nature's terror (maybe 2 of those 3) followed by IoM, then shift and go to town. It's amazing how quickly enemies disintegrate under that spell barrage. 

Plague of Insects into IoM seems very good. You have a DOT ticking at a fixed rate which is unhelpful for shorter fights but great for long ones and then you compound that with a DOT that rumps up over time.

EDIT: Teheku can pick it because its a Decay not Beast spell.

Edited October 6, 2022 by patronkus

[Elric Galad]

Oh I don't say it's bad or that you can't play around.

It just seems to me that under rather optimal conditions (coupled with Plague of Insects or other DoT), it does about half the damages of a Tier 5 ability while not having its utilities.

It's the combination of "under good conditions" + half the damages+ no other utility that make me feels it underwhelming. It should be worse than PoI as a tier 3, just a bit less worse

Then I'm comparing it to Plague of Insects that is a top tier spell (which I don't pick so often because druid Tier 5 has so many great options).

We're just talking about value adjustment here. The spell is viable, I just think it should have been a bit better on its own. But I love insects druid, like I love Storm druid... Like a promise from BG serie that wasn't fulfilled until PoE

The absence of poison tag is sweet, but since the best way to make it optimal is Plague of Insects...

 

It also doesn't help that I start 95% of my battles as a druid by a quick cast of Nature Balm while the party is still close that leaves only one use of Tier 3

 

EDIT : but if everybody thinks it's good, maybe setting it to 0-15 raw damages was overbuffing. Still I can't prevent myself from thinking it's a bit weak, so I might tune down my buffing to 0-12 raw damages. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Oh I don't say it's bad

 

On 10/5/2022 at 10:59 AM, Elric Galad said:

I would say it's rather bad

I think it's a good spell. Not fantastic like some others the Druid has access to, but solid. Targeting fortitude is always annoying, but having some AoE-MIG- and CON-affl. in the party does help (e.g. Howler with Long Night's Drink + Spirit Frenzy, best if paired with Ngati's Tusk/Hunter of Hunters) and so does AoE Morning Star (one reason for me to bring a SC Fighter for the sweet Clean Sweep with Willbreaker or Saru Sichr).

Since raw DoT spells and abilities usually don't stack with themselves it's a good way to stack some more raw ticks on (a lot of) enemies. Even the weird mechanics are not a problem then because you will cast it as the last one of the AoEs anyway, when the enemies already suffered some damage.

The obvious combo is with Plague oI because the AoEs are both huge as was already mentioned. What's also huge (besides the mess on my desk) is the AoE of White Worms - so I like to combine those two as well. 

It has a nice interaction with Toxic Strike (preferably done with an AoE weapon like a rod+Blast or so from stealth to get rid of recovery): the ticks of Toxic Strike grow with time and the ticks of Maggots grow with lesser health - which snowballs a bit more than usual. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

But rather bad =/= bad

Top Tier > Very good > Good > Okay > Mehish > rather bad > bad > Perplexing Sap 

 

But even, saying it's rather bad was probably exagerated. I probably played it with a not suited build. I still think that an ability should be able to be slightly better on its own and slightly more rewarding in the right circonstance, but I can see why it is suitable in the right chain.

Still I will put Plague of Insects at Top Tier rank (bar poison immunity, but I have to remember that a single scroll saved me from those Woedica fanatics), Insect Swarm at Very Good, and Infestation of Maggots somewhere between Okay (with support) and Rather Bad (on its own). It is not exceptional but do its part in the right build (which happens to be a quite common druid build so...).

[Boeroer]

*Elric wearing Boots of Evasion confirmed*

PS: lol at perplexing sap

Edited October 6, 2022 by Boeroer

[Constentin Lévine]

17 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

rather bad > bad > Perplexing Sap

By the way, I finally understand how that work :

It is not "enemy confuse now enemies on hit" >> his enemies? our enemies? who knows, but striking an ally or an enemy with perplexing sap make them all the time confusing the -Allies of the Rogue- on hit. The only way to turn the ability at the advantage is to make the rogue dominated or charmed by enemies (only) and then, even if the charm effect is cleared, the ally or enemy under the Perplexing Sap status confuse now the -Enemies of the Rogue-. I think the problem into the code is the "boolean friend etc" is not concerning the target but the rogue. Or maybe the ability work as intended, namely to make perplexe and confuse the player, I dont know.

That said, Infestation of Maggots is nice, especially vs group of mobs who take a new raw DoT layer. 

[Elric Galad]

My bet is that they designed the ability as if Confusion worked as in PoE1.

And then they forgot (or "prioritized" as they say )

[NotDumbEnough]

I think it's certainly good, the problem is just that it's not often worth using after you get Great Maelstrom because everything dies so quickly. On the other hand this is also true for 90% of the Druid's other offensive spells.

[Constentin Lévine]

10 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think it's certainly good, the problem is just that it's not often worth using after you get Great Maelstrom because everything dies so quickly. On the other hand this is also true for 90% of the Druid's other offensive spells.

But Great Maelstrom is more like a "skip combat" button for regular fights, it is not like using a combination of spells to win the fight. With Entropy wich doesnt break on pure DoT spells, or with CC spells, the SC Druid is cheesy too but with an other taste. More sadistic maybe  but malso more strategic. Excepted 2 or 3 times when several mobs was like annoying for my purpose, I never used Great Maelstrom, in over than 3500h. And for testing some stuffs of course.

[patronkus]

39 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think it's certainly good, the problem is just that it's not often worth using after you get Great Maelstrom because everything dies so quickly. On the other hand this is also true for 90% of the Druid's other offensive spells.

IMO Great Maelstrom is a bit of a problem spell. It is too good, it singlehandedly clears out encounters and if it ever runs out of sauce you can just Empower it and it becomes even more problematic. It's stupid powerful and makes every other Druid spell look pathetic in comparison. When you class becomes "Great Maelstrom" that doesn't feel good and to me is a bit of an issue.

[patronkus]

18 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

But Great Maelstrom is more like a "skip combat" button for regular fights, it is not like using a combination of spells to win the fight. With Entropy wich doesnt break on pure DoT spells, or with CC spells, the SC Druid is cheesy too but with an other taste. More sadistic maybe  but malso more strategic. Excepted 2 or 3 times when several mobs was like annoying for my purpose, I never used Great Maelstrom, in over than 3500h. And for testing some stuffs of course.

I tend to agree Great Maelstrom is a bit of a brain off just I win button. It isn't a very fun ability and for me after the first few casts I just stopped using it because it was boring. I keep it just in case but I prefer not to have to use it.

Also because Great Maelstrom is so good it means the rest of the Druid kit has to be depowered to compensate. I'd prefer to see Great Maelstrom nerfed a bit and maybe PL 6/7/8 buffed.

[Elric Galad]

16 hours ago, patronkus said:

I tend to agree Great Maelstrom is a bit of a brain off just I win button. It isn't a very fun ability and for me after the first few casts I just stopped using it because it was boring. I keep it just in case but I prefer not to have to use it.

Also because Great Maelstrom is so good it means the rest of the Druid kit has to be depowered to compensate. I'd prefer to see Great Maelstrom nerfed a bit and maybe PL 6/7/8 buffed.

Do you think Great Maelstrom is that much above things like Missile Salvo, Meteor Shower and the convenient and twice per encounter Symbols?

Some of these spells have a description that is not fully clear. Actually I'm not completely sure what Maelstrom do, except for

"No you can't win an encounter just by clicking Maelstrom.

- Haha, Great Maelstrom go Brrrr"

Edited October 7, 2022 by Elric Galad

[patronkus]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Do you think Great Maelstrom is that much above things like Missile Salvo, Meteor Shower and the convenient and twice per encounter Symbols?

Some of these spells have a description that is not fully clear. Actually I'm not completely sure what Maelstrom do, except for

"No you can't win an encounter just by clicking Maelstrom.

- Haha, Great Maelstrom go Brrrr"

I actually do think there is a bit of a difference between Maelstrom and those spells you listed. Not sure about Salvo but Symbols and Meteor Shower have a very short range making them very risky to use. Maelstrom doesn't, it can be cast from super far away making it safe and convenient opener. That safety is being able to consistently open a fight from stealth with Maelstrom and basically win it before it starts. You can't really do that with Meteor Shower or Symbol (in some cases you can but its nowhere near as consistent or safe). Furthermore it feels like the DPS of Maelstrom is a lot higher. Symbol of Rymrgand (just using this example as I play mostly with Vatnir) has a duration of 20 seconds, Maelstrom has a duration of 6 seconds. That means even if the damage they do is the same in total, you are getting that damage so much faster with Maelstrom and its wiping fights before it can even start. 

I can't comment with as much certainty for Shower or Salvo because I typically bring Fassina (Conjurer gets no Evocation so no Salvo or Shower) but to me, on paper, the range of Shower makes it so much less appealing. Your wizard has to be basically in Melee with your foe to get the effect to go off and by that point your wizard could easily be dead. Maelstrom is easily fired off before combat from deep in the backline. Moreover it makes Shower so much harder to start a fight with, unlike Maelstrom which is so easily cast from Stealth for massive damage it clears so much chaff.

That said, I think you are correct in pointing out that the PL 8/9 spells are quite strong and overshadow other options probably by design as they are meant to entice you to SC but IDK something about Maelstrom just turns me off. It's a bit like Monk and Whispers of the Wind. While a super powerful combo that makes SC the way to go, it just isn't interesting and overshadows everything else by being so domineeringly powerful.

[Elric Galad]

32 minutes ago, patronkus said:

I actually do think there is a bit of a difference between Maelstrom and those spells you listed. Not sure about Salvo but Symbols and Meteor Shower have a very short range making them very risky to use. Maelstrom doesn't, it can be cast from super far away making it safe and convenient opener. That safety is being able to consistently open a fight from stealth with Maelstrom and basically win it before it starts.

Good point. Forbidding Maeltstorm from out of combat might be a way. The range is average but enough.

32 minutes ago, patronkus said:

You can't really do that with Meteor Shower or Symbol (in some cases you can but its nowhere near as consistent or safe). Furthermore it feels like the DPS of Maelstrom is a lot higher. Symbol of Rymrgand (just using this example as I play mostly with Vatnir) has a duration of 20 seconds, Maelstrom has a duration of 6 seconds. That means even if the damage they do is the same in total, you are getting that damage so much faster with Maelstrom and its wiping fights before it can even start. 

True. Symbols win fights, but over time.

32 minutes ago, patronkus said:

I can't comment with as much certainty for Shower or Salvo because I typically bring Fassina (Conjurer gets no Evocation so no Salvo or Shower) but to me, on paper, the range of Shower makes it so much less appealing.

Meteor Shower is indeed annoying, typically getting the +20% range talent could help. I only used it against Hauani O Whe, because Missile Salvo does Crush/Corrode and the blob is resistant to it.

Missile Salvo is much easier to use, that's why it's my choice. But it has smaller AoE. Typically eradicates a couple of foes unless underpenetrates. This isn't enough to win instantly, but it turns the tide more often than not. Sort of enough to win, but not instantly. 

32 minutes ago, patronkus said:

Your wizard has to be basically in Melee with your foe to get the effect to go off and by that point your wizard could easily be dead.

Well, are you suggesting Wizards are fragile  ?????

32 minutes ago, patronkus said:

Maelstrom is easily fired off before combat from deep in the backline. Moreover it makes Shower so much harder to start a fight with, unlike Maelstrom which is so easily cast from Stealth for massive damage it clears so much chaff.

That said, I think you are correct in pointing out that the PL 8/9 spells are quite strong and overshadow other options probably by design as they are meant to entice you to SC but IDK something about Maelstrom just turns me off. It's a bit like Monk and Whispers of the Wind. While a super powerful combo that makes SC the way to go, it just isn't interesting and overshadows everything else by being so domineeringly powerful.

They are. And I nerfed WotW already. But I'm a bit reluctant to nerf Maelstorm if it's a general single class design. And why I'm trying to identify what would make this spell even above this already high curve. 

[patronkus]

2 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Good point. Forbidding Maeltstorm from out of combat might be a way. The range is average but enough.

True. Symbols win fights, but over time.

Meteor Shower is indeed annoying, typically getting the +20% range talent could help. I only used it against Hauani O Whe, because Missile Salvo does Crush/Corrode and the blob is resistant to it.

Missile Salvo is much easier to use, that's why it's my choice. But it has smaller AoE. Typically eradicates a couple of foes unless underpenetrates. This isn't enough to win instantly, but it turns the tide more often than not. Sort of enough to win, but not instantly. 

Well, are you suggesting Wizards are fragile  ?????

They are. And I nerfed WotW already. But I'm a bit reluctant to nerf Maelstorm if it's a general single class design. And why I'm trying to identify what would make this spell even above this already high curve. 

My wizards are generally a bit fragile since I put them in Robes to dump their spellbooks as fast as possible but I know they can be durable if built right.

I don't think Maelstrom needs changes, it's a bit overtuned but I think the druid kit is designed with it in mind power budget wise. I wouldn't change it and leave people like myself who aren't the biggest fans of it to decide for themselves whether they'd like to use it or not. I'll compare it to BDD, a spell that is pretty broken but I wouldn't change it, instead I'll just limit my usage of it and only use it in absolutely necassary dire scenarios.