Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

You naughty InsaneCommander

[InsaneCommander]

2 hours ago, Make a contract with KP said:

You naughty InsaneCommander

You think that is naughty?

Spoiler

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

50 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

You think that is naughty?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Spoiler

 

[xzar_monty]

20 hours ago, kanisatha said:

So I've finally gotten around to playing WotR for the first time. Still in the middle of the Prologue but absolutely loving it so far. On track to be my all-time favorite cRPG. As expected I spent half a day just on creating my character.

Would be great to hear your opinion once you've got a bit further in the game.

So, what kind of character did you create? I am playing a slayer. Two criteria that I used: I wanted to play a frontliner because I am the boss and I want to lead from the front -- so it had to be a class with good attacking bonuses and a fair amount of hit points. I also wanted to play a class that has Persuasion as a class skill, because I am going to do the talking and I want to be good at it. This narrowed down the choices quite a bit, and from what was left, I thought slayer was a nice one.

[kanisatha]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Would be great to hear your opinion once you've got a bit further in the game.

So, what kind of character did you create? I am playing a slayer. Two criteria that I used: I wanted to play a frontliner because I am the boss and I want to lead from the front -- so it had to be a class with good attacking bonuses and a fair amount of hit points. I also wanted to play a class that has Persuasion as a class skill, because I am going to do the talking and I want to be good at it. This narrowed down the choices quite a bit, and from what was left, I thought slayer was a nice one.

22 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

So, how is your character? Class, race, alignment?

In case you don't know, Camellia is a romance option.

@xzar_monty, I have very similar criteria for my PC choice, for me including wanting to have at least decent melee capacity.

Because it's my first time through I did some online browsing and ended up going with the 'Oracle Angel' build (half-elf; lawful good) from Neoseeker (side note: Neoseeker is usually my go-to for help with all the games I tend to like playing; the Fextralife wiki is pretty helpful too). It's a pretty good build: lot's of ways to smack down demons even while also being a tanky melee character. And Angel seemed like a good mythic path to take my first time through. I'd prefer to be more neutral good than lawful good; wonder if that will be possible with the Angel path.

Re. romance, the choices seem rather limited: Camellia or the queen. Are you guys all recommending Camellia? She's kind of a lightweight in my party.

[xzar_monty]

23 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Re. romance, the choices seem rather limited: Camellia or the queen. Are you guys all recommending Camellia? She's kind of a lightweight in my party.

Well I must say that an angel romancing Camellia sounds intriguing. And interesting.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, kanisatha said:

 

Re. romance, the choices seem rather limited: Camellia or the queen. Are you guys all recommending Camellia? She's kind of a lightweight in my party.

am not gonna speak to romance, but as much as am disliking camellia as a character, is also our opinion she is one o' the three most effective companions with the additional advantage she is highly versatile as well. 

at earliest levels, whether ranged or melee, camellia is unimpressive from a damage output pov.  dex focused characters who don't have sneak attack lack the damage potential o' high strength 2-handed weapon havers. 'course camellia has hexes, so from an action economy pov, her value to the party may nevertheless be significant even if she isn't killing stuff as quick as other companions. protective luck, chant, fortune and evil eye is all hexes available early and they represent serious difference making potential even if you do not resort to exploiting chant to extend the duration o' those hexes outside of combat. later in the game the metal curse is worth your consideration. you need take an additional spirit to acquire the metal curse, but particular on higher difficulties when every point o' ab or dc is essential, the metal curse hex is a major boon.

tanky, dual wield or ranged? is also skald potential. 

if you are playing core or lower, crazycakes makes for a decent tank. taking fencing grace as early as possible, as well as outflank and improved critical feat(s) will result in significant damage output increase for even a tanky camellia and camellia is the best tank companion... sorta. animal companions should not be viewed insular and discreet from the humanoid companions which is responsible for adding 'em to a party, but such is what inevitably happens. from a practical pov, a few o' the animal companions is gonna be your best tank options for most o' the game. 'course as an angel oracle, depending on the build, you may be your party's tank by taking advantage o' stacking charisma bonus cheese. assuming you don't need camellia to tank, then is best to consider other uses.

dual wield or ranged... or skald. hexes is fantastic, but perhaps you got ember in party? skald is a viable option. with a 13 charisma, camellia only needs three more charisma points to cast all her skald spells; is plenty o' headgear which will get you those points. reckless stance and inspire ferocity stack and are untyped. what that means is that your camellia skald will be boosting party-wide ab by +10 with sixteen levels o' skald and that +10 will stack with morale, sacred, competence or any other source o' ab boost. if your party includes numerous animal companions, then the beast totem and animal fury rage powers is also essential as you will be adding a considerable number o' natural attacks to all party members, but is likely animal companions will make the best use o' those additional opportunities. additionally, the bard spell list provides nice personal and party buffs, including early offerings such as unbreakable heart (do not sleep on this spell as it is a life saver when facing a few swarms,) mirror image, sense vitals, haste, displacement and good hope. with one level o' spirit hunter and at least 16 o' skald, you do have three additional levels with which to customize. all skald levels from 2-20 is fine, but consider the level dip into demonslayer and possibly loremaster.

after considerable hours invested in wotr, am thinking a camellia spirit hunter is best designed as a dual wield melee fighter. is admitted a glass cannon build. camellia starts with a high crit-range weapon, so if you go with party-wide outflank and you have a bunch o' melee combatants, then you should always be considering how best to exploit critical hits. with the outflank teamwork feat, when camellia or a fellow companion crits, all adjacent comps with the outflank feat receive an attack o' opportunity. at early levels you won't see the advantages o' outflank, the ever ready mythic ability and the improved critical feats, but as your party receives more attacks, the crit opportunities also rise.  camellia cannot out tank an angel oracle and most o' the animal companions make for a better tank option, so am not seeing the point o' trying to be a middling secondary tank. going with a full dual wield camellia generates additional attacks of opportunity for your party, and each such opportunity represents considerable damage. even so, is a situation where camellia won't appear to be pulling her weight until the mid point o' the game.

neoseeker, which you already mention, has a decent ranged build for camellia, but is not a sooper high damage build, particular early.

regardless, is ez to see camellia as underwhelming earlyish, and by the time she becomes useful, Gromnir has ordinarily sent her to join luca brasi.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[xzar_monty]

@Gromnir: Regarding that "Banner Over the Citadel" / "Kill the Giants" quest bug upon loading a save, I am now fighting for Drezen and the quest has appeared in my journal properly and in its proper place. Interesting to see what happens, if anything, once I complete the quest.

[InsaneCommander]

2 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Re. romance, the choices seem rather limited: Camellia or the queen. Are you guys all recommending Camellia? She's kind of a lightweight in my party.

There are other options. 4 girls and 3 guys in total.

[majestic]

3 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Because it's my first time through I did some online browsing and ended up going with the 'Oracle Angel' build (half-elf; lawful good) from Neoseeker (side note: Neoseeker is usually my go-to for help with all the games I tend to like playing; the Fextralife wiki is pretty helpful too). It's a pretty good build: lot's of ways to smack down demons even while also being a tanky melee character. And Angel seemed like a good mythic path to take my first time through. I'd prefer to be more neutral good than lawful good; wonder if that will be possible with the Angel path.

With the Angel Path? Yes. With the build? You do not want to fall as Paladin, so lawful good it is.

That particular Neoseekers build is made to provide one of the easier Unfair experiences and it assumes that you know a couple of things, like the reason for having both Paladin and Hellknight levels:  because smites stack. Smites also stack with Mark of Justice, which will come from either Seelah or a mercenary. Unlikely to matter on the lower difficulties, of course. It also assumes you know how to make the two handed version of Gravesinger and how Archmage Armour works (i.e. only by casting it on yourself with a scroll or potion).

[Gromnir]

@kanisatha

a word of warning re: oracle-angel, 'cause am not sure if it is mentioned at neoseeker-- spontaneous casters no longer benefit from the accelerated spell book advancement for spells known/learned. for an oracle-angel your caster level for spells known is not mythic level + oracle level; is oracle only.

from a practical standpoint, this is likely o' minimal concern and as a first-time player you may not even realize there is a newish "handicap," but it is worth observing how prepared caster angels now have a noteworthy advantage compared to spontaneous casters.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

Finished my business In Iz. Grabbed a key and a drop of crystallized demon blood (using midnight bolts) along the way. Not sure if either really serves a purpose when playing Legend path. Still, they were sort of up for easy grabs. Not that the demon boss wanted to part with his blood voluntarily

Luckily my level 40 Barbarian/Warrior managed to stay somewhat out of mind affecting stuff (even if all mounts ended up as horse d'euvres early on). Did take several tries before succeeding, so ransacking Areelu's old haunt afterwards felt like poor package holiday by comparison. This is where I left off yesterday, busy learning a lot about what went on before Sarkoris and led to The Worldwound.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Huh, apparently animal companions can wear haramakis. Not sure if this is a bug or strange mod behavior, but either way the thought of a dog wearing a belly band is funny.

[kanisatha]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

@kanisatha

a word of warning re: oracle-angel, 'cause am not sure if it is mentioned at neoseeker-- spontaneous casters no longer benefit from the accelerated spell book advancement for spells known/learned. for an oracle-angel your caster level for spells known is not mythic level + oracle level; is oracle only.

from a practical standpoint, this is likely o' minimal concern and as a first-time player you may not even realize there is a newish "handicap," but it is worth observing how prepared caster angels now have a noteworthy advantage compared to spontaneous casters.

HA! Good Fun!

Thanks!! No, I did not know this, but did not know how it was before the change either.

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, Make a contract with KP said:

Huh, apparently animal companions can wear haramakis. Not sure if this is a bug or strange mod behavior, but either way the thought of a dog wearing a belly band is funny.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

10 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

I've confirmed it to work without mods (Toybox the exception, but with nothing enabled that should touch equipment). So not only dog but your raptors, centipedes, Aivus, horses, mammoths, and silly little cats can now embrace the power of the belly band.

[bugarup]

Haramaki on a critter IMO is kinda less funny than, say, a diadem, cape and gloves (but boots and rings are verboten for some reason). Spontaneous Lich nerf fortunately is countered in spellbook merge mod. And @kanisatha, if you're playing Paladin, do some evil from time to time lest you cross to Neutral Good for being too, well, good and therefore fail as a Paladin. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by bugarup

[xzar_monty]

On 11/7/2022 at 8:41 AM, Zoraptor said:

XP wise, I've done literally zero grinding, and while I've done most of the optional fights I certainly haven't done all of them. To my mind it's just plain bad design, and there's no excuse for it. Either have a higher cap, or have lower xp rewards.

That's also the one thing I actively loathed about both PoEs, for that matter.

Apologies for the necro, but anyway: I am firmly in the same camp with you on this, and reaching level cap tends to be the kiss of death for me in terms of interest. (This was the biggest failure in PoE and Deadfire for me, too.) However, I have recently learned that there are people who are equally firmly in the opposite camp: they prefer reaching level cap early on and then wielding Ultimate Power for the rest of the game; one of their arguments is that the highest-level abilities make little sense if you only get to use them for a moment.

I understand the logic of that argument and I can see where they're coming from but boy, there's no way I can feel like they do. Along with the story, for me the essence of a good cRPG is the possibility of improvement and development.

[Gorth]

18 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Apologies for the necro, but anyway: I am firmly in the same camp with you on this, and reaching level cap tends to be the kiss of death for me in terms of interest. (This was the biggest failure in PoE and Deadfire for me, too.) However, I have recently learned that there are people who are equally firmly in the opposite camp: they prefer reaching level cap early on and then wielding Ultimate Power for the rest of the game; one of their arguments is that the highest-level abilities make little sense if you only get to use them for a moment.

I understand the logic of that argument and I can see where they're coming from but boy, there's no way I can feel like they do. Along with the story, for me the essence of a good cRPG is the possibility of improvement and development.

I suppose that makes me the bland, middle in the road option? I hate it when that ability I've been yearning for the last several hard fights is something you finally get to select while the end credits are playing. C.f. my old example elsewhere, where your reward for killing the last spider monster is a spider slaying sword. Emphasis on 'last spider monster'. What's the point? I feel cheated and strung along, chasing a carrot.

The devil is in the pacing (imho), let people reach max before they finish the game, but not too long before the finish.

It feels good to enjoy the rewards of your efforts for a little longer than just the ultimate boss encounter. It even feels satisfying to go back and mow down some enemies you struggled with on the path to in-game divinity (because I'm petty and I like a little bit of vengeance on enemies that made my journey towards to the goal hard).

It doesn't feel good if the majority of the game becomes a pointless time sink where you just have to go through the motions and do token combat (because combat is expected) in your journey from point a to point b. Only thing worse than obvious filler combat is gamey puzzles that are obviously there because the developers wanted puzzles and not because the inhabitants of the game world have any puzzle fetishes.

edit: speaking of filler combat, I hate level scaling random encounters passionately. Let the encounters fit the location, not the player level...

 

[BruceVC]

On 11/27/2022 at 2:40 AM, InsaneCommander said:

You think that is naughty?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Thats very naughty, I approve 

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, Gorth said:

I suppose that makes me the bland, middle in the road option?

Well I suppose it is middle of the road by definition when considering those two other sides, but I wouldn't call it bland. And I agree with a lot of what you say.

Btw, do you think that both P:K and P:WotR contain a surprising amount of design that is just plain unpleasant towards the player? This is my biggest gripe with the game, even bigger than the hilariously jejune writing. Many of the puzzles seem simply unfair (not as in too difficult but as in poorly designed in the first place), many of the immunities appear to be there just to annoy the player, some of the encounter design is borderline sadistic (i.e. the dragon if you happen to fail any of the pre-encounter checks), etc. I seriously wonder why they do this.

I think I've played BG2 three times, and I never once reached level cap, although it has to be said that after a certain point, new levels bring nothing substantial. Anyway, I loved the fact that I had something more to aim for in every game. In my first PoE playthrough I reached level cap upon entering Twin Elms and I stopped right there for months. It was such a disappointment. (But it is also true that I have an awful lot of other things to do these days and I'm sometimes away from games for months upon months anyway.)

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Well I suppose it is middle of the road by definition when considering those two other sides, but I wouldn't call it bland. And I agree with a lot of what you say.

Btw, do you think that both P:K and P:WotR contain a surprising amount of design that is just plain unpleasant towards the player? This is my biggest gripe with the game, even bigger than the hilariously jejune writing. Many of the puzzles seem simply unfair (not as in too difficult but as in poorly designed in the first place), many of the immunities appear to be there just to annoy the player, some of the encounter design is borderline sadistic (i.e. the dragon if you happen to fail any of the pre-encounter checks), etc. I seriously wonder why they do this.

I think I've played BG2 three times, and I never once reached level cap, although it has to be said that after a certain point, new levels bring nothing substantial. Anyway, I loved the fact that I had something more to aim for in every game. In my first PoE playthrough I reached level cap upon entering Twin Elms and I stopped right there for months. It was such a disappointment. (But it is also true that I have an awful lot of other things to do these days and I'm sometimes away from games for months upon months anyway.)

This is an issue on which I see and appreciate both sides of it. On the one hand, I too hate when I'm maxed out on level advancement and can no longer look forward to anymore advancing on my characters. But I also agree that gaining that final level, along with its benefits, just before the end of the game leaves me dissatisfied about not being able to use those benefits much in the game. But I don't see a way this problem can be fixed.

Btw, in WotR, I've already kept myself from bothering with optional fights. Just couldn't be bothered with that painful optional fight in the Prologue dungeon (although my sneaky character was able to successfully claim all the loot in the room without triggering the fight).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 hours ago, Gorth said:

I suppose that makes me the bland, middle in the road option? I hate it when that ability I've been yearning for the last several hard fights is something you finally get to select while the end credits are playing. C.f. my old example elsewhere, where your reward for killing the last spider monster is a spider slaying sword. Emphasis on 'last spider monster'. What's the point? I feel cheated and strung along, chasing a carrot.

The devil is in the pacing (imho), let people reach max before they finish the game, but not too long before the finish.

It feels good to enjoy the rewards of your efforts for a little longer than just the ultimate boss encounter. It even feels satisfying to go back and mow down some enemies you struggled with on the path to in-game divinity (because I'm petty and I like a little bit of vengeance on enemies that made my journey towards to the goal hard).

It doesn't feel good if the majority of the game becomes a pointless time sink where you just have to go through the motions and do token combat (because combat is expected) in your journey from point a to point b. Only thing worse than obvious filler combat is gamey puzzles that are obviously there because the developers wanted puzzles and not because the inhabitants of the game world have any puzzle fetishes.

edit: speaking of filler combat, I hate level scaling random encounters passionately. Let the encounters fit the location, not the player level...

 

I'm sort of in the same boat, or maybe in the camp that wants "Ultimate Power" early. I like when a game isn't balanced so you only hit max level with one or two fights left to go, and only if you do every sidequest to boot (this is what WotR is like for Mythic Rank btw). While Baldur's Gate (1), the PoEs, and WotR do have too low of level caps for their exp rewards, but I think being able to skip or refuse quests while still being to hit the max level is a good thing.

[ShadySands]

6 hours ago, bugarup said:

if you're playing Paladin, do some evil from time to time lest you cross to Neutral Good for being too, well, good and therefore fail as a Paladin.

I wanted to explain this further. Good (and possibly evil, I haven't tested it and I only make a few evil choices) actions move you toward neutral on the law/chaos axis as well as the good/evil axis. So if you pick only good options then you'll turn neutral good since it shifts you both neutral and good... and to make that worse is that most lawful options come off as lawful neutral or lawful evil even though they only move you the law/chaos axis. So to remain LG you have to be careful of where you are on the alignment wheel because you may have to avoid good choices and make lawful ones instead to avoid falling to the horribleness of neutral good. Or invest in scrolls of atonement. Or use a mod.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't usually play Lawful to begin with, but Owlfinder Lawful is one of the worst implementations I've seen. The Lawful options are almost always either evil, stupid, or just a plain buzz kill. Some folks have said Lawful feels like what Regill would do, I think it's like what would Hulrun do, though I suppose the difference between the two is thinner than Elon Musk's real hair. It's either no fun allowed, throwing someone in prison for public intoxication in the middle of an invasion, or "You broke the Law. Die!".

Anyways I've finally got further than the Maze without rerolling and have taken Wenduag instead of Lann. She may be a groveling man eater, but at least she doesn't make terrible jokes or sexually harass any of the ladies.