Reaping Knives with Spells and DoT !

[Constentin Lévine]

Reaping Knives has a weird effect that dont correspond with the description : instead of returning back 30% of knives'damages as focus for the cipher, that refound 5 focus per hit. 

In another topic I spoke about that the allie with the knives can change them for any other weapon, and refounding 5 focus per hit, again.

 

But that work also with damaging spells and chants, and on DoT'tick. How many enemies are affected doesnt matter, only the spell's proc count.

For example, Arterial Strike return back 5 focus per tick (0.3s when enemy is walking) , beam spells 5 focus per 1s, Corrosive Skin 5 focus per 1s, Venombloom 10 focus per 3s, Her Revenge a lot, etc. 

AoE spells with DoT like Shining Beacon return back only 5 focus per 3s, however the number of enemies affected. But an Arterial Strike in AoE can generate a lot of focus. Multiple DoTs from the Reaping Knives wearer give 5focus per Tick, and multiple Pusating spells are also good to generate focus quickly.

Minelotta's missiles (every kind of these spells, also from Arcane Archer) generate 5 focus per missile per bounce.

Note that Arterial Strike on allie who move also generate focus per 0.3s, for Boss fight persperctive.

Weapons with an AoE give 5 focus for the weapon attack and 5 focus for the AoE. Coupled with Avenging Storm, +5 focus per lightning. By the way the Effort+Avenging Storm trick refound efficientely a lot of focus.

Walls doent generate focus.

Obviously, unlike for Psion that requiert no action from anybody to generate focus, this technic need to deal damages from a character. But the Cipher is free in his side. 

The link to the way to switch the weapon during Reapng Knives :

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[Elric Galad]

Awww one more filter that wasn't made right...

The thing is Reaping Knives isn't that strong without this glitch.

[MaxQuest]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Awww one more filter that wasn't made right...

Add a special KW to knives attack, and filter by it?

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

The thing is Reaping Knives isn't that strong without this glitch.

It could be ok, if it did what the tooltip says it does)

30% of damage made by a rogue with these knives would be decent. And the thing is that there actually are:

"Reaping_Knives_SE_ApplyByDamageDealt"

"BaseValue": 0.3,

"Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus"

But I have a feeling that that AddFocus SE doesn't work, so they daisy-chained 

Reaping_Knives_SE_CasterFocus

 

which adds plain +5 Focus...

Edited August 26, 2022 by MaxQuest

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

"Reaping_Knives_SE_ApplyByDamageDealt"

"BaseValue": 0.3,

"Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus"

I think is pretty simple to correct : the SE_Addfocus Attackfilter has no ID, no range and no source. With the Reaping Knives Attack ID, that should limit the focus regen for the Reaping Knives alone. This is only for the 5 focus regen, not for the 0.3. 

The ApplyByDamageDealt seems to be the status effect (duration 30s) that apply the CasterFocus effect (5focus) on damage dealt , to the caster by the AddFocus (transfert).

But like @Elric Galadsay, correct them is like weaken them, and cipher have not a lot of spells at tiers 8 & 9 (but great passives that is right). This is why I  post that in a new topic instead of BPM one!

Edited August 26, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[MaxQuest]

35 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

The ApplyByDamageDealt seems to be the status effect (duration 30s) that apply the CasterFocus effect (5focus) on damage dealt , to the caster by the AddFocus (transfert).

Shouldn't Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus (AddFocus (transfer)) add focus by itself?

• it is AddFocus
• transfer: means to caster
• and parent ApplyByDamageDealt should have passed the value

[Constentin Lévine]

38 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

Shouldn't Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus (AddFocus (transfer)) add focus by itself?

• it is AddFocus
• transfer: means to caster
• and parent ApplyByDamageDealt should have passed the value

The StatusEffectsValueIDs from SE_AddFocus (transfer) is SE_CasterFocus ID (the 5 as value); maybe SE_AddFocus should have as StatusEffectsValueIds the ID of ApplyByDamageDealt, with for this last in the AttackFilter the ID of the Reaping Knives Attack? But what about the SE_CasterFocus?

 

Edit : or like that :

AddFocus (transfer) > SE_CasterFocus (AddFocus) (asChild, value : 0)> SE_ApplybydamageDealt (value :0.3; AttAckFilters : Reaping Knives ID) ?

Edited August 26, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[MaxQuest]

"$type": "Game.GameData.GenericAbilityGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

"DebugName": "Reaping_Knives",

"AttackID": "589bb732-2d65-464f-99d6-dc3055d53e80",

->

      "$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

      "DebugName": "Reaping_Knives_Ranged",

      "ID": "589bb732-2d65-464f-99d6-dc3055d53e80",

      "AffectedTargetConditional" (IsKith and not ChangeForm)

      "StatusEffectsIDs": [

            "c55d27e8-d84f-47d3-b5e6-77b9222d335e",  (Reaping_Knives_SE_SummonWeaponPrimary)

            "02862ae9-5c2c-427d-86ca-db0d3d9f7fed",  (Reaping_Knives_SE_SummonWeaponSecondary)

            "2c11b39c-aa5f-4e30-87d5-05f8e6a5d69c"  (Reaping_Knives_SE_ApplyByDamageDealt)

      ],

->

      "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

      "DebugName": "Reaping_Knives_SE_ApplyByDamageDealt",

      "ID": "2c11b39c-aa5f-4e30-87d5-05f8e6a5d69c",

     "StatusEffectType": "ApplyStatusEffectToSelfByDamageDealt",

     "BaseValue": 0.3,  (those 30% from tooltip)

     "Duration": 30,

     "StatusEffectsValueIDs": [

            "08e8e0fe-6e08-4262-a2b3-45e726dd0b8a"  (Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus, with Transfer)

     ],

-> 

      "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

      "DebugName": "Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus",

      "ID": "08e8e0fe-6e08-4262-a2b3-45e726dd0b8a",

      "StatusEffectType": "AddFocus",

      "UseStatusEffectValueAs": "Transfer",

      "BaseValue": 0,   (base value is 0, but it should be received from parent ApplyStatusEffectToSelfByDamageDealt; like with Fampyr's DrainEssence strike and 50% heal, right?)

      ^ this looks like it should be enough to transfer 30% of damage dealt by target, as focus to original caster

      - but then there is also the following daisy-chained effect:

      "StatusEffectsValueIDs": [

            "975a85e5-155a-4b42-bea8-801953238929"  (Reaping_Knives_SE_CasterFocus)

      ],

      ^ like, why is it even needed?

->

      "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

      "DebugName": "Reaping_Knives_SE_CasterFocus",

      "ID": "975a85e5-155a-4b42-bea8-801953238929",

      "StatusEffectType": "AddFocus",

      "BaseValue": 5,

     ^ there is nothing in ability description that would tell 5 focus.

     - it's like Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus SE doesn't add focus, so someone has added that additional SE; and 5 focus is ~approximately 30% (if we look at knives base damage of 12-16, plus whip / quality enchant)

[Constentin Lévine]

6 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

there is nothing in ability description that would tell 5 focus.

     - it's like Reaping_Knives_SE_AddFocus SE doesn't add focus, so someone has added that additional SE; and 5 focus is ~approximately 30% (if we look at knives base damage of 12-16, plus whip / quality enchant)

I think I understand what happen :

The "transfert" is the statuseffect relied to the proc, which is the AddFocus, by his duration. More clearly, the "transfert" effect from Borrowed Instinct doesnt transfert the value (-8 int and per) to the cipher but when the effect persist the cipher bonuses also does (they are linked by the StatuseffectsValueIds from transfert to the buff's Id ) . 

With Wall of Draining, it is the same, the adjustbeneficialeffects to enemy( transfert) have his value (-1) and the adjustbeneficialeffect to self proc when this last proc, with his own value (+1).

Maybe the problem is in the statuseffecttype names, the transfert status cant be AddFocus but what the effect do by the attack :

in this case, the ApplyByDamageDealt have the UseStatusEffectAsValue : Transfert and for BaseValue : 1, the Duration : 30, the ID of the Reaping Knives in the AttackFilters, with the StatusEffectsValueIds of the AddFocus ;

 and the AddFocus have UseStatusEffectAsValue : none and the StatusEffectType : AddFocus, with the Base Value 0.3 (from the ApplyBy...'s StatusEffectsValueIds).

I dont know if that is coherent but that seems the Transfer effect take into the account 100% the damages dealt by Reaping Knives and the AddFocus keep 30% of these damage as focus, right? 

 

I'm agree, the CasterFocus look like as tinkering because that didnt work correctely.

I would to try with this parameters and yours but I dont know how to deal with the CasterFocus..

[Elric Galad]

Yeah, I think adding the correct filter is a good starting point.

Then trying to get the described effect.

Then if it does not work, backup plan :
- change the text to +X focus pet hit so it's clear
- probably adjust the X a bit above 5 (maybe 8 ?)

[Bosmer]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:16 PM, Constentin Lévine said:

But like @Elric Galadsay, correct them is like weaken them, and cipher have not a lot of spells at tiers 8 & 9 (but great passives that is right). This is why I  post that in a new topic instead of BPM one!

Are you referring only to shared nightmare or is there some use to protective soul that I haven’t understood yet?

[Constentin Lévine]

30 minutes ago, Bosmer said:

Are you referring only to shared nightmare or is there some use to protective soul that I haven’t understood yet?

Oh yes, Protective Soul combinate with a wizard, with low (relative to the wizard acc I mean) reflexes and high burn AR (or Rekvyu Cape), can be very resilient : both Ray of Flame and Wall of Flame target reflex and have low damage (and 0 pen for the wall?), and can (when crit) trigger Protective Soul per 1s. Of course, when the effect of Protective Soul is refreshed, the damage shield dont refresh his shield part, but when the shield have absorbed 25 dmage, a new shield can be actived. 

Also, with low reflex, Keeper of the Flame and Time Parasite, the effect is similar to this, but without the Wizard help.

 

Other method is to stay in the Tanglefoot AoE (multiple Tanglefoot is better) with a dex resistance : that can crit (and trigger the shield) and it is downgraded, so without any malus. 

For SC Soulblade it is pretty cool ! But it is not also cool that Shared Nightmare is.

[thelee]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:08 AM, Elric Galad said:

Awww one more filter that wasn't made right...

The thing is Reaping Knives isn't that strong without this glitch.

for consideration - reaping knives isn't just a focus generator (and frankly i think 5 focus per hit is pretty nice), but reaping knives is also a big PEN boost on the melee character you cast it on.

i'm not sure i would consider it weak; consistent DPS for one ally and super-charged focus generation on the cipher is pretty good. 

[NotDumbEnough]

You need really high intellect and/or PL for Reaping Knives to actually break even. Base duration is 30 seconds and you need 16 hits to break even. Depending on armor/dexterity you can really only reasonably expect one attack per 3 seconds, and I don't believe you get focus if you swing and miss.

So, if you have a 90% chance to land your attack, you'd need ~50 second duration on Reaping Knives for it to break even. IMO actually using it to generate focus is only viable on a Psion who can just stack PL at the expense of having decent auto-attack that other ciphers require. Namely a Nature Godlike Psion holding Lance of the Midwood Stag affected by Woodskin and Acute and/or food that gives +1 PL can reliably reach PL 14 not counting resting bonus stacking bugs. Even then with ~20 intellect you can just barely reach a 60 second duration on your Reaping Knives, i.e. a net profit of maybe 20ish focus depending on attack speed and hit chance.

Or, you can be an Ascendant and not care about the focus cost. It's rather fun to build an entire party around Reaping Knives spam.

On the other hand if the ability worked as it stated it would potentially be very powerful, perhaps too powerful. A rogue multiclass can easily hit for upwards of 50 per swing while spamming Crippling Strike (30 focus per use). It would quickly lead to a positive feedback loop where you can spam Brilliant and Reaping Knives on Swashbuckler Eder and he would just alternately spam Crippling Strike and Mule Kick (i.e. with one attack per 3 seconds, no net resource usage if Brilliant is active).

Edited August 29, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Boeroer]

I just tested an SC Cipher who casts Reaping Knives on an Assassin/Paladin after that guy started a fight with a Gouging Strike from stealth using Lover's Embrace and followed up with Brand Enemy. If you deliver those 3 endless DoTs with that combo to a boss at the start of a fight the Cipher will get ~4.2 focus per sec (on top of his normal focus generation and on top of the additional hits the Assassin/Paladin will do)  - for the rest of the fight against that boss - as long as the Assassin/Paladin has Reaping Knives (doesn't matter if they disappear and you recast - the focus gain from DoTs will simply resume then). That is pretty cool in those very long fights in which the usual "Soul-Whip Cipher" sometimes struggles. I guess it pays off to invest the 80 focus then. With 40 secs of Reaping knives you should roughly gain 160 focus that way for a cost of 80.

This even partially works against superdefensive enemies like Belranga. Should you miss the Dagger attack - Brand Enemy is an auto-hit.  It's then only 5 focus/ 3 secs for the rest of the fight - but better than nothing for a focus-starved cipher. But then one has to ask if the 80 focus for Reaping Knives is worth it and not better spend on something else.  

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Boeroer

[Bosmer]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

for consideration - reaping knives isn't just a focus generator (and frankly i think 5 focus per hit is pretty nice), but reaping knives is also a big PEN boost on the melee character you cast it on.

That's true, but in this role it directly competes with Driving Echoes, which boosts all forms of pen, not only melee attacks.

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I just tested an SC Cipher who casts Reaping Knives on an Assassin/Paladin after that guy started a fight with a Gouging Strike from stealth using Lover's Embrace and followed up with Brand Enemy. If you deliver those 3 endless DoTs with that combo to a boss at the start of a fight the Cipher will get ~4.2 focus per sec (on top of his normal focus generation and on top of the additional hits the Assassin/Paladin will do)  - for the rest of the fight against that boss - as long as the Assassin/Paladin has Reaping Knives (doesn't matter if they disappear and you recast - the focus gain from DoTs will simply resume then). That is pretty cool in those very long fights in which the usual "Soul-Whip Cipher" sometimes struggles. I guess it pays off to invest the 80 focus then. With 40 secs of Reaping knives you should roughly gain 160 focus that way for a cost of 80.

This even partially works against superdefensive enemies like Belranga. Should you miss the Dagger attack - Brand Enemy is an auto-hit.  It's then only 5 focus/ 3 secs for the rest of the fight - but better than nothing for a focus-starved cipher. But then one has to ask if the 80 focus for Reaping Knives is worth it and not better spend on something else.  

 

Yeah, but would the focus gain on DoT would still work with a proper melee weapon filter ?

I'm not saying it is that weak as it is, but would be vaguely okayish after said nerf.

[Bosmer]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yeah, but would the focus gain on DoT would still work with a proper melee weapon filter ?

I'm not saying it is that weak as it is, but would be vaguely okayish after said nerf.

I think there are two setups that might especially profit from Boeroer's strategy (or DoT-focus-gain strategies in general): 1) An Ascendant who can cast the reaping knives for free at the end of the ascendant state and therefore speed up the following re-ascending period. And 2) a soulblade who might be able to spam soul annihilations, without relying on auto-attacks in-between. But I don't think that even in these cases the way that reaping knives seems to work right now is too broken ( I haven't tested it yet).

In any case the way it works (or should work) doesn't match the tooltip description, no matter if its 5 focus per melee hit or 5 focus per any hit. There are other weapons that apply their weapon-effects to the wielders universal damage, so I guess it wouldn't break existing rules if it would stay the way it is (but maybe adjust the tool-tip to clarify it?).

Alternatively, if the knives should only apply to melee attacks, than I assume that the earlier propposed 8 focus per melee hit might be a decent value to keep it useful (or the real 30% damage if feasible.)