Ukraine Conflict - "History never looks like history when you are living through it."

[Chilloutman]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

You still need to ensure you fund  your own resources and  your own military , I remember during the Cold War Czechoslovakia  was well known as a  country that produced effective weapons and other military armaments for the " stinking Commie subversives "

During wars like Angola their were Czech military advisors working with the Soviets and supporting the failed and false narrative of Communism. And like the Cubans they were feared and respected 

So the point I am making is Czech mustnt undermine its  history of being  a reliable arms producer 

 

We have decent arms production of small arms, military trucks and training jets. But we are no warriors we are lovers

[xzar_monty]

Lovely provocations from the Russians again. I am more and more inclined to support an Israeli approach to Russian breaches of territory: as soon as anything leaves international waters / airspace and enters the space of a sovereign country other than Russia, it is to be destroyed.

https://twitter.com/Northern_Sentry/status/1541049472129572864/photo/1

[Sarex]

25 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Lovely provocations from the Russians again. I am more and more inclined to support an Israeli approach to Russian breaches of territory: as soon as anything leaves international waters / airspace and enters the space of a sovereign country other than Russia, it is to be destroyed.

https://twitter.com/Northern_Sentry/status/1541049472129572864/photo/1

That goes both ways.

[BruceVC]

27 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Lovely provocations from the Russians again. I am more and more inclined to support an Israeli approach to Russian breaches of territory: as soon as anything leaves international waters / airspace and enters the space of a sovereign country other than Russia, it is to be destroyed.

https://twitter.com/Northern_Sentry/status/1541049472129572864/photo/1

As much as I support your understandable concerns with Putin and this type of provocation I dont think thats a good idea ....we want to avoid a  Western conflict with Russia because of nukes. If it wasnt for nukes I would be advocating for Western troops being deployed to Ukraine and a strict no-fly zone 

Its clear Putin only respects things like force and real consequence. But  unfortunately nukes prevent the likes of the US from intervening militarily 

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Lovely provocations from the Russians again. I am more and more inclined to support an Israeli approach to Russian breaches of territory: as soon as anything leaves international waters / airspace and enters the space of a sovereign country other than Russia, it is to be destroyed.

Er lol. Israel is absolute worst example to bring up. Unless you mean its a shame Syria and Lebanon don't shoot down every Israeli jet flying illegally through their airspace, because especially for Lebanon that is pretty much constant and absolutely 100% deliberate. Not even mentioning the complete lack of western sanctions for the persistent mistreatment of Palestinians, nor for the illegal annexations. Indeed, the US blithely recognised those, while pontificating about the 'rules based order'. The only thing Israel illustrates is "Rules for thee, but not for me" and "Might makes Right".

For that matter, do we really want the Chinese to decide to start enforcing their territorial rights- as recognised by pretty much everyone- around Taiwan? Maybe, say, prevent arms smuggling from enemy powers to rebels? Or maybe Syria to shoot down all those western jets flying through its airspace. And there is the small matter of the US drones that have spent the last 20 years wandering around countries' airspace blowing their citizens up randomly.

I may on occasion harp on slightly about hypocrisy and no one knowing the extent of the west's suffering; that ain't even low hanging fruit- it's having a crate picked for you and left on your doorstep.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Lovely provocations from the Russians again. I am more and more inclined to support an Israeli approach to Russian breaches of territory: as soon as anything leaves international waters / airspace and enters the space of a sovereign country other than Russia, it is to be destroyed.

https://twitter.com/Northern_Sentry/status/1541049472129572864/photo/1

You're enlisting when ?

As an aside, the website linked in that tweet has some aggravating design, or at least doesn't work as intended with FF

Edited June 27, 2022 by Malcador

[Elerond]

Claimed Air defense identification zones in East China Sea

China imposes requirements for all civilian and military aircraft regardless of destination that fly over areas they claim

Japan does not make any demands for aircrafts flying over their zone except if they are planning to land in Japan. China and Russia don't recognize Japan's ADIZ. 

South Korea had plans to extend their zone south after China's extended its zone go over Socotra Rock, which South Korea and China have dispute over, but at least for now have dropped those plans after USA persuaded them not to make such extension

Taiwan's ADIZ was established in 1950s, which it extends over continent China and why China these days constantly flies it military planes there .

But anyway China's territorial rights over Taiwan's airspace aren't currently recolonized by anyone including China itself

EDIT: It seems that Russia hit shopping mall with one of their missiles. According to Ukraine official there lots of civilians in it and they currently aren't able to estimate how many died 

EDIT2: Reuters updated their article there are at least 2 dead and 20 wounded.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-missiles-hit-crowded-shopping-mall-central-ukraine-zelenskiy-2022-06-27/

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Elerond

[kanisatha]

7 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Well not very long, thats why we are in NATO. We are country of 10mil, Russia is country of 150mil. Its not reasonable to expect us to stand on our own against such odds. Besides we are not neighbor of Russia

I was more specifically talking about not running out of munitions for your military forces. States very often spend lots of money on military equipment but then don't stock up a lot on the munitions and spare parts that make it possible to keep using your equipment during a lengthy war.

And btw, I was including my country, the US, in this as well. We here are also now having a debate in Congress about how come we don't have an adequate stockpile of these munitions (like anti-armor missiles for example). If we went into a full war with China right now, we'd very likely run out of munitions and spare parts within a couple of weeks. And that's very poor planning.

[Chilloutman]

6 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I was more specifically talking about not running out of munitions for your military forces. States very often spend lots of money on military equipment but then don't stock up a lot on the munitions and spare parts that make it possible to keep using your equipment during a lengthy war.

And btw, I was including my country, the US, in this as well. We here are also now having a debate in Congress about how come we don't have an adequate stockpile of these munitions (like anti-armor missiles for example). If we went into a full war with China right now, we'd very likely run out of munitions and spare parts within a couple of weeks. And that's very poor planning.

What we handed over was mostly Soviet era stuff, we don't have much of that in stocks anymore - we moved to NATO standard issue for most of the things

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

As much as I support your understandable concerns with Putin and this type of provocation I dont think thats a good idea ....we want to avoid a  Western conflict with Russia because of nukes. If it wasnt for nukes I would be advocating for Western troops being deployed to Ukraine and a strict no-fly zone 

Its clear Putin only respects things like force and real consequence. But  unfortunately nukes prevent the likes of the US from intervening militarily 

I sense a bit of a contradiction in what you write. On the one hand, you agree that Putin only respects force and real consequences, but on the other hand you argue that Russia's blatant violations should have no consequences.

[Malcador]

7 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

We here are also now having a debate in Congress about how come we don't have an adequate stockpile of these munitions (like anti-armor missiles for example). If we went into a full war with China right now, we'd very likely run out of munitions and spare parts within a couple of weeks. And that's very poor planning.

Surprised the US hasn't fixed that, given the way the DOD gets handed cash.  They had similar problems during the invasion of Iraq, saw that Israel had the same issue when invading Lebanon.  Was one of the more appreciable moments from Clancy that he had that happening in RSR - that and NATO and WP tearing each other up so badly that they had C-tier units barely moving after a while.

NATO upping it's ready force to 300k - https://www.axios.com/2022/06/27/nato-force-increase-ukraine-russia

Also NATO is expanding it's protection to some Spanish exclaves.  Guess the migrant threat is that serious..

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Er lol. Israel is absolute worst example to bring up. Unless you mean its a shame Syria and Lebanon don't shoot down every Israeli jet flying illegally through their airspace, because especially for Lebanon that is pretty much constant and absolutely 100% deliberate.

No. My only comparison to Israel was that Israel responds very, very harshly to all provocations. I believe that's something we can agree upon.  My suggestion was that Russia's neighbors should adopt some of this attitude when dealing with Russia. I have little sympathy for Israel's politics in general. But that is a completely different topic.

[xzar_monty]

44 minutes ago, Malcador said:

You're enlisting when ?

Your question rests on a false premise. I know that Canada has no conscription / national service. But other places do.

[Gfted1]

Syria wont even paint the Israeli F-35's with their fancy Rissian SAM's. I am disappoint.

[Malcador]

2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Your question rests on a false premise. I know that Canada has no conscription / national service. But other places do.

Not really, you can't be a hawk half way.

2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Syria wont even paint the Israeli F-35's with their fancy Rissian SAM's. I am disappoint.

The S-400s in Syria are under Russian control, if I am recalling correctly.

[xzar_monty]

Russia and the stolen grain of Ukraine: https://www.bbc.com/news/61790625

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

No. My only comparison to Israel was that Israel responds very, very harshly to all provocations. I believe that's something we can agree upon.  My suggestion was that Russia's neighbors should adopt some of this attitude when dealing with Russia. I have little sympathy for Israel's politics in general. But that is a completely different topic.

You could say that Russia also responded very, very harshly to a provocation.

[BruceVC]

52 minutes ago, Sarex said:

You could say that Russia also responded very, very harshly to a provocation.

Provocation  Ukraine not wanting to be part of the great reestablishment of the failed Soviet empire is not provocation

Its sovereignty, dont you believe that Democracies get to decide what  countries  they align with? I thought we  were all opposed to Colonialism ? 

[Sarex]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Provocation  Ukraine not wanting to be part of the great reestablishment of the failed Soviet empire is not provocation

Palestine not wanting to be a part of the Israel state is also not provocation.

Having oil is also not provocation. Wanting to sell oil in non US currency is not provocation. Being a non aligned state is also not provocation.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Sarex

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

You could say that Russia also responded very, very harshly to a provocation.

In that case, what would the provocation be?

Anyway, this is irrelevant.

[Sarex]

3 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

In that case, what would the provocation be?

Let me ask you what was the provocation during the Cuban missile crisis.

[BruceVC]

16 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Let me ask you what was the provocation during the Cuban missile crisis.

Can I answer? The plan to place nukes in Cuba threatened the US ....where are the US nukes in Ukraine or where was official statement to put US nukes in Ukraine? Because that was what was going to happen during the Cuban Missile crisis, the Soviets intention was clearly stated and acted on. They were installing nukes

https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/cuban-missile-crisis

So just provide me with one link that answers the following

• Where are the nukes in Ukraine or where is the statement to install nukes?

That would make it same as Cuban Missile crisis 

 

[Malcador]

29 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Let me ask you what was the provocation during the Cuban missile crisis.

Related to this, is an older article but was an interesting read - https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/10/08/the-myth-that-screwed-up-50-years-of-u-s-foreign-policy/

 

[Elerond]

10 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Palestine not wanting to be a part of the Israel state is also not provocation.

This is important to remember also in cases of Kosovo, Chechnya, Kurdistan, Kashmir, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Eritrea, Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria,  East Turkestan, Macau, Manchukuo, South Mongolia, Tibet,  Assam, Kamtapur, Manipur, Nagaland, Punjab,  South Ossetian, Republic of Abkhazia,  Aceh, Minahasa,  Riau, South Moluccas, Khūzestān, Iranian Azerbaijan, Balochistan, Republic of Central Kurdistan, Nineveh Plains,  Hokkaido, Okinawa, Johor, Penang,  Sarawak, Sabah, Arakan,  Zo Asia,  Kachin, Kawthoolei, Karenni, Kokang, Mon State, Northern Rakhine State, Shan States, Wa State, Zale'n-gam, Kirat Autonomous State, Madhesh, Terai, Balochistan, Gilgit-Baltistan,  Sindhudesh, Bansa Sūg, Cordillera, Siberian Republic, Buryatia, Koryakia,  Taymyria, Khanty-Mansiysk, Tamil Eelam, Patani,  Northern Kurdistan, Assyria, Karakalpakstan, Khmers Kampuchea-Krom Federation, South Yemen, Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic, Republika Srpska, Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia,  Istria, Faroe Islands, Alsace, French Basque Country, Brittany,  Åland, Occitania, Pale of Calais, Northern Catalonia, Bavaria, North Frisia, Lusatia, Valdosta, Friuli, Free Territory of Trieste,  Republic of Lombardy,  Transnistria, Republic of Gagauzia, Groningen, Silesia, Kashubia,  Transylvania, Székely Land, Partium, Komi-Permyak Okrug, Sverdlovsk Oblast,  Idel-Ural, Tatarstan,  Udmurtia, Bashkortostan, Chuvashia,  Komi Republic,  Ingria, Karelia,  Kaliningrad, Kalmykia,  Kuban, Don Republic, Republic of Crimea,  Abazinia,  Circassia,  Karachay-Balkaria, Lezgistan,  Tabasaranstan, Vojvodina, Sandžak, Andalusia, Aragon,  Asturias, Basque Country,  Castile, Canary Islands, Catalonia, Galicia, León, Navarre, Valencia, Scania, Cornwall, England, Scotland, Northern England,  Wales, London, Midlands, Shetland,Yorkshire, Isle of Man, Alderney

and all the areas in Africa and Americas

[BruceVC]

29 minutes ago, Elerond said:

This is important to remember also in cases of Kosovo, Chechnya, Kurdistan, Kashmir, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Eritrea, Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria,  East Turkestan, Macau, Manchukuo, South Mongolia, Tibet,  Assam, Kamtapur, Manipur, Nagaland, Punjab,  South Ossetian, Republic of Abkhazia,  Aceh, Minahasa,  Riau, South Moluccas, Khūzestān, Iranian Azerbaijan, Balochistan, Republic of Central Kurdistan, Nineveh Plains,  Hokkaido, Okinawa, Johor, Penang,  Sarawak, Sabah, Arakan,  Zo Asia,  Kachin, Kawthoolei, Karenni, Kokang, Mon State, Northern Rakhine State, Shan States, Wa State, Zale'n-gam, Kirat Autonomous State, Madhesh, Terai, Balochistan, Gilgit-Baltistan,  Sindhudesh, Bansa Sūg, Cordillera, Siberian Republic, Buryatia, Koryakia,  Taymyria, Khanty-Mansiysk, Tamil Eelam, Patani,  Northern Kurdistan, Assyria, Karakalpakstan, Khmers Kampuchea-Krom Federation, South Yemen, Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic, Republika Srpska, Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia,  Istria, Faroe Islands, Alsace, French Basque Country, Brittany,  Åland, Occitania, Pale of Calais, Northern Catalonia, Bavaria, North Frisia, Lusatia, Valdosta, Friuli, Free Territory of Trieste,  Republic of Lombardy,  Transnistria, Republic of Gagauzia, Groningen, Silesia, Kashubia,  Transylvania, Székely Land, Partium, Komi-Permyak Okrug, Sverdlovsk Oblast,  Idel-Ural, Tatarstan,  Udmurtia, Bashkortostan, Chuvashia,  Komi Republic,  Ingria, Karelia,  Kaliningrad, Kalmykia,  Kuban, Don Republic, Republic of Crimea,  Abazinia,  Circassia,  Karachay-Balkaria, Lezgistan,  Tabasaranstan, Vojvodina, Sandžak, Andalusia, Aragon,  Asturias, Basque Country,  Castile, Canary Islands, Catalonia, Galicia, León, Navarre, Valencia, Scania, Cornwall, England, Scotland, Northern England,  Wales, London, Midlands, Shetland,Yorkshire, Isle of Man, Alderney

and all the areas in Africa and Americas

Elerond  I hope you didnt type out all those countries, please tell you used cut and paste ?