Ukraine Conflict - "History never looks like history when you are living through it."

[Malcador]

Erdogan deciding things are boring - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-05/turkey-threatens-to-veto-sweden-and-finland-s-nato-bids

 

[Gfted1]

Turkey's Newfound Cache of Rare Earths Could Supply the World's EVs and More (thedrive.com)

Looks like somebody needs an invading. Rare Earths are the new black oil.  

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Turkey's Newfound Cache of Rare Earths Could Supply the World's EVs and More (thedrive.com)

Looks like somebody needs an invading. Rare Earths are the new black oil.  

This has got huge potential. The one positive from Putins War is the US and its Western allies   doesnt ever need to worried about being called warmongers anymore because all future invasions ...Im mean "special military operations " can be justified 

And it is so easy in the case of Turkey, you just say you "invading " because of Islamic Extremists. You cant use the Nazi card but you can easily argue the EU is worried about the borders of Turkey expanding. And then at the UN all we do is deny and repeat the same gaslighting

Its a brave new world Putin has shown us, who needs to respect sovereignty when you have a more powerful military 

EDIT : Oh I meant to add, you also need to keep saying the West was provoked, thats very important to justify an invasion of Turkey 

Edited July 8, 2022 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

12 hours ago, HoonDing said:

lol @ the vids of Russia blowing up some HiMaR$

you men the vids, where they are hitting some random trees?

[Mamoulian War]

@Darkpriest

Looks like everyone here missed one of the most interesting news in last few days. Looks like another Russian neighbour had enough of Putin's threats, and the verbal sparring in St. Peterburgh's economic forum has an interesting follow up. Kazakhstan president has approached EU with an offer to solve the current energy crisis.

https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/kazakhstan-voices-readiness-to-help-ease-global-energy-crisis-2022-7-5-14/

 

[BruceVC]

46 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

@Darkpriest

Looks like everyone here missed one of the most interesting news in last few days. Looks like another Russian neighbour had enough of Putin's threats, and the verbal sparring in St. Peterburgh's economic forum has an interesting follow up. Kazakhstan president has approached EU with an offer to solve the current energy crisis.

https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/kazakhstan-voices-readiness-to-help-ease-global-energy-crisis-2022-7-5-14/

 

Kazakhstan? What.....I thought that was a made up country for the movie Borat ?

It looks like its real ?

Mamie is this a real link 

[bugarup]

13 hours ago, Sarex said:

As for being locked up, I kind of doubt the goverment cares very much what some civilian thinks.

"Enemy of the state" cases are traditionally very lucrative for the FSB operatives. 

[Lexx]

24 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Kazakhstan? What.....I thought that was a made up country for the movie Borat ?

It looks like its real ?

Mamie is this a real link 

Rude. Kazakhstan is a pretty nice looking place.

And they don't just live in mud huts either.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

Rude. Kazakhstan is a pretty nice looking place.

And they don't just live in mud huts either.

Good to know, you learn new things everyday 

[Gfted1]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

EDIT : Oh I meant to add, you also need to keep saying the West was provoked, thats very important to justify an invasion of Turkey 

Well I guess, if you squint real hard, Turkey is compromising the future security of the EU by blocking new members. Ah who am I kidding, after viewing the Russian performance of their personnel and equipment they are clearly a 2nd-3rd tier military and the EU would smack them up good. Theyre lucky they have nukes. China is the only legitimate threat to the US and Im not 100% convinced they arent a paper tiger too.

[HoonDing]

you'd think after Napoleon and Hitler the west would finally learn to leave Russia alone

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

And guess what happens to the country who is completely dependant on their fossil fuel exports? Well, just look at Venezuela, and you can see, where the Russian economy is slowly heading...

Excellent point. If oil and gas sales were all it took to have a great economy, Venezuela would be a paradise.

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Well I guess, if you squint real hard, Turkey is compromising the future security of the EU by blocking new members. Ah who am I kidding, after viewing the Russian performance of their personnel and equipment they are clearly a 2nd-3rd tier military and the EU would smack them up good. Theyre lucky they have nukes. China is the only legitimate threat to the US and Im not 100% convinced they arent a paper tiger too.

NATO, you mean, not the EU.  Not even sure they are compromising it, unless Russia suddenly has Space Marines and will execute some sort of Schlieffen plan on steroids and sickle cut through Scandinavia to devastate western Europe.   Would be interesting to see how a conflict would pan out though, everyone tells me NATO air power would win it.

[Chilloutman]

24 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

you'd think after Napoleon and Hitler the west would finally learn to leave Russia alone

Was is it not Staling who was ally to Hitler? Didn't Russia attacked Poland first? I might have missed something in school...

[BruceVC]

53 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

you'd think after Napoleon and Hitler the west would finally learn to leave Russia alone

Thats why we using sanctions, no one has to freeze to death when we have sanctions 

[Gfted1]

29 minutes ago, Malcador said:

NATO, you mean, not the EU.

Point taken.

29 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Would be interesting to see how a conflict would pan out though, everyone tells me NATO air power would win it.

"You can never hold ground without something on the ground to hold it." <-- Thats a good point so I guess it depends on the definition of "win".

Id really love to see real world engagements using T1 systems. C'mon Syria, fire off a salvo of S-400 at those F-35's taking c0ckpit selfies of downtown Damascus. Lets go Russin, let rip a Kh-47M2 at a moving or ABM defended target. China, heard you got a sweet DF-17, lets see if it can hit a target in ABM defended Guam instead of an outline of an aircraft carrier in the Gobi desert. Of course in these examples nobody is injured or killed, just saying.

[BruceVC]

42 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Excellent point. If oil and gas sales were all it took to have a great economy, Venezuela would be a paradise.

Venezuela is indeed an absolute economic disaster but thats because they nationalized\stole the assets of international oil companies back in 2006 and then  mismanaged the running of these oil companies like most failed socialist experiments

The Russian energy companies are more or less  well run and always have been state and oligarch owned. But you cant have a sustainable and growing  economy just on energy sales especially with the level of Western sanctions and disinvestment in the Russian economy

So the future for the Russian economy is not great  

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Thats why we using sanctions, no one has to freeze to death when we have sanctions 

Sanctions are the 'go-to' option for Western liberal democracies who's leaders want to be able to tell their voters they're "doing something" in the face of some despot's nasty actions even while not having to choose the option of war/military action to counter said despot. There are warehouses full of data showing that sanctions rarely ever have the desired effect (apartheid South Africa being the one notable exception). But they are loved by democratic leaders as an ideal "middle option" between war and doing nothing.

At some point very soon both Western political elites as well as Western publics are going to learn that they cannot continue to have their cake (comfortable, worry-free, problems-free indolent lives in an advanced society) and eat it (standing for their cherished liberal principles and values) too. At some point very soon there is going to be a very hard reckoning that sometimes you have to be ready and willing to fight a war and suffer its sacrifices.

[kanisatha]

59 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Venezuela is indeed an absolute economic disaster but thats because they nationalized\stole the assets of international oil companies back in 2006 and then  mismanaged the running of these oil companies like most failed socialist experiments

The Russian energy companies are more or less  well run and always have been state and oligarch owned. But you cant have a sustainable and growing  economy just on energy sales especially with the level of Western sanctions and disinvestment in the Russian economy

So the future for the Russian economy is not great  

Well, okay, perhaps Venezuela has other factors at play, but then we can also point to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Nigeria, etc. as examples of petrostates that are decidedly *not* paradices.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Id really love to see real world engagements using T1 systems. C'mon Syria, fire off a salvo of S-400 at those F-35's taking c0ckpit selfies of downtown Damascus. Lets go Russin, let rip a Kh-47M2 at a moving or ABM defended target. China, heard you got a sweet DF-17, lets see if it can hit a target in ABM defended Guam instead of an outline of an aircraft carrier in the Gobi desert. Of course in these examples nobody is injured or killed, just saying.

Guess you have it on faith that US systems always work   Probably what would happen is either or both sides run of their fancy ammunition as it's not exactly churned out.

The logistics train for the HIMARS in Ukraine would be interesting to see.

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Id really love to see real world engagements using T1 systems. C'mon Syria, fire off a salvo of S-400 at those F-35's taking c0ckpit selfies of downtown Damascus. Lets go Russin, let rip a Kh-47M2 at a moving or ABM defended target. China, heard you got a sweet DF-17, lets see if it can hit a target in ABM defended Guam instead of an outline of an aircraft carrier in the Gobi desert. Of course in these examples nobody is injured or killed, just saying.

Hehe. Nice to see I'm not the only madman around here who can't wait to see exactly these kinds of things in action.

As a scholar of great power rivalry and war, it sucks that I only get to read about it while not supposed to ever want to see it happening with my own eyes (because of that pesky 'casualties' thing).

[kanisatha]

4 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Guess you have it on faith that US systems always work

What about all those discs and triangles and orbs so many people keep insisting they've seen in the sky ever since 1947? They all seem to be working just fine, right? So let's see how they do against the Ruskies and the Chicoms!

Personally though, as a former aerospace engineer, I really want to see the Mach 5 replacement for the SR-71 in action. Is that so much to ask for?

[Malcador]

14 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Personally though, as a former aerospace engineer, I really want to see the Mach 5 replacement for the SR-71 in action. Is that so much to ask for?

Wonder where the Aurora rumour started.

[kanisatha]

12 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Wonder where the Aurora rumour started.

"Aurora" goes all the way back to the early 1990s. The rage right now is the Skunkworks' so-called SR-72, complete with pulse-detonation ramjet technology.

[Gfted1]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Guess you have it on faith that US systems always work

No not at all, we cant even rocket anymore: Reentry Vehicle Test For America's New ICBM Failed Just After Launch (thedrive.com)

I have interest in all countries advanced weapons systems but shooting at air is easy and Id just like to see unvarnished performance tests between these systems and targets that have the capabilities to defend themselves.