Ukraine Conflict - "Only the dead have seen the end of war."

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

I guess, but was just commenting on a bunch of videos of T-72s on a train somewhere as proof.  Doesn't make much sense for them to enter now, anyway.

Diversion to try and draw away Ukranian reserves from the east. That was my thought anyway.

[Mamoulian War]

16 hours ago, kanisatha said:

For those of you who, like me, are interested in the nitty-gritty details of the tactical and operational battlefield in Ukraine:

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-9

yup reading that every day, in conjunction with the Ukrainian guy doing the daily videos.

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, Sarex said:

Force them to pull troops back to Kiev.

True. Seems they've been doing drills since last week, guess this is just people looking for alarm.

 

[xzar_monty]

Sauli Niinistö, the president of Finland, has gone on record saying that "You caused this. Look in the mirror" is his response to Russia's (expected) outrage at Finland (probably) joining NATO.

Things have certainly changed. I cannot remember any Nordic leader being that blunt towards Russia during my lifetime.

[BruceVC]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/europe/ukraine-video-russian-soldiers-shoot-civilians/index.html

I wish I could wake up on most days and not see another story of Russian barbarity and war crimes against Ukrainian civilian but it never seems to end. The Russian army has  an indefatigable appetite for targeting of civilians 

Here is another story that happened in March and verified by CNN so its true

@Gorth I asked you recently do you support war crime charges against Russia and you werent convinced. I imagine this type of story goes a long way to changing your mind ?

 

[Gorth]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/europe/ukraine-video-russian-soldiers-shoot-civilians/index.html

I wish I could wake up on most days and not see another story of Russian barbarity and war crimes against Ukrainian civilian but it never seems to end. The Russian army has  an indefatigable appetite for targeting of civilians 

Here is another story that happened in March and verified by CNN so its true

@Gorth I asked you recently do you support war crime charges against Russia and you werent convinced. I imagine this type of story goes a long way to changing your mind ?

 

Go back and reread my answer. It was not about morality, but about practicality.

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Go back and reread my answer. It was not about morality, but about practicality.

Okay, I did misunderstand you. I apologize 

So you do support  war crime charges but you saying realistically they wont happen because Russia wont participate ?

[Gorth]

Just now, BruceVC said:

Okay, I did misunderstand you. I apologize 

So you do support  war crime charges but you saying realistically they wont happen because Russia wont participate ?

Effectively yes. For the same reason it would be pointless to prosecute say US servicemen for war crimes (the US governments stand being **** off). The reality of it is, with few notable exceptions, war criminals only gets successfully prosecuted AND punished if their side lose badly enough to host enemy occupation forces.

 

An example of an exception is the Aussie guy who got prosecuted *despite* the Morrison government trying to prevent it. But the little free press that exists, despite being raided by Morrison's goons in the federal police, successfully managed to stir up enough attention, that action was taken. It was not someone from the war zone or an international tribunal that managed it, nor was it with the current governments consent. But, sometimes justice gets lucky I suppose...

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Effectively yes. For the same reason it would be pointless to prosecute say US servicemen for war crimes (the US governments stand being **** off). The reality of it is, with few notable exceptions, war criminals only gets successfully prosecuted AND punished if their side lose badly enough to host enemy occupation forces.

 

An example of an exception is the Aussie guy who got prosecuted *despite* the Morrison government trying to prevent it. But the little free press that exists, despite being raided by Morrison's goons in the federal police, successfully managed to stir up enough attention, that action was taken. It was not someone from the war zone or an international tribunal that managed it, nor was it with the current governments consent. But, sometimes justice gets lucky I suppose...

You make good points

But one important distinction between US war crimes and Russian war crimes. The US does charge and prosecute its soldiers for crimes during war. Their is a long list  of US soldiers sitting in various   US military prisons for various crimes in conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan.

But I dont know many Russian soldiers who  have ever been charged by the Russian state?

The truth is I dont expect countries like the US or Russia to practically hand over their soldiers to the ICC but I do expect them to prosecuted internally if they commit crimes during war 

[Gorth]

23 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

The truth is I dont expect countries like the US or Russia to practically hand over their soldiers to the ICC but I do expect them to prosecuted internally if they commit crimes during war 

Based on historical precedent, I suspect the only crime a Russian soldier would ever be prosecuted internally (and shot) for, is cowardice (even if having to attack a Ukrainian tank position alone... barehanded...)

[Mamoulian War]

First Russian soldier will be on trial for war crimes in Ukraine. Looks like Ukrainian soldier have taken prisoner one of the Russian soldiers who killed old man riding on bicycle from a stolen car.

https://www-teraz-sk.translate.goog/zahranicie/na-ukrajine-maju-sudit-prveho-ruske/632880-clanok.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Google translate.

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

First Russian soldier will be on trial for war crimes in Ukraine. Looks like Ukrainian soldier have taken prisoner one of the Russian soldiers who killed old man riding on bicycle from a stolen car.

https://www-teraz-sk.translate.goog/zahranicie/na-ukrajine-maju-sudit-prveho-ruske/632880-clanok.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Google translate.

...could face up to 15 years in jail... please tell me that's a joke? Unprovoked killing of civilians deserves more than that. Because he was afraid he would be charged with car theft? If that's for real, Then I suspect the draftees in the Russian army are... never mind. Maybe a few gene pools needs improving?

[rjshae]

Finland abandons neutrality and will move to immediately join NATO

Prior to this war I never expected to see that. Putin can't be happy.

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

The US does charge and prosecute its soldiers for crimes during war. Their is a long list  of US soldiers sitting in various   US military prisons for various crimes in conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Well, not sure about long. The Haditha massacre is almost comical. But at least they prosecute them, I guess.

Came across this yesterday https://thehill.com/policy/international/3482835-un-receiving-credible-information-about-ukrainian-troops-torturing-russian-prisoners-official-says/

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Malcador

[kanisatha]

Here's what's happening at the UNHRC today. As @Gorthsaid, no Russians are ever likely to face a court on their crimes, but at least this inquiry may establish facts that could sway public and government opinion in those countries currently on the fence:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/12/ukraine-united-nations-human-rights-council-war-crimes/

[BruceVC]

50 minutes ago, rjshae said:

Finland abandons neutrality and will move to immediately join NATO

Prior to this war I never expected to see that. Putin can't be happy.

@Elerond

Elerond we should celebrate this momentous historical moment for Finland. I have found this restaurant below in Helsinki, its called Lappi and its looks great. They serve Reindeer and I have never eaten Reindeer before, dont worry I will pay. What time should I make the reservation ...8:30 pm ?  

https://lappires.com/en/homepage/

Edited May 12, 2022 by BruceVC

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Well, not sure about long. The Haditha massacre is almost comical. But at least they prosecute them, I guess.

Came across this yesterday https://thehill.com/policy/international/3482835-un-receiving-credible-information-about-ukrainian-troops-torturing-russian-prisoners-official-says/

 

First things first - war crimes on both sides are bad. However, there is one very important distinction...

“being coerced to make statements, apologies and confessions, and other forms of humiliation.”

... that's not exactly on the same level as russian mass rape, executions, and cutting off body parts. So yeah, still bad, but it's in the details here.

[Sarex]

24 minutes ago, Lexx said:

... that's not exactly on the same level as russian mass rape, executions, and cutting off body parts. So yeah, still bad, but it's in the details here.

All done by the western forces too.

[Malcador]

24 minutes ago, Lexx said:

First things first - war crimes on both sides are bad. However, there is one very important distinction...

 

 

... that's not exactly on the same level as russian mass rape, executions, and cutting off body parts. So yeah, still bad, but it's in the details here.

Well, good thing I didn't say it was, did I ?  But they did also mention torture, been trying to hunt down the actual report but **** coworkers keep interrupting me.  HRW mentioned this long ago, also saw people jumping on them because I guess being consistent is bad or something.  But in terms of anything coming from it to make your first statement meaningful at all, I can't see it.

 

[Lexx]

8 minutes ago, Sarex said:

All done by the western forces too.

I'm going by what the article claims, not what random people on the internet say.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Lexx

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

@Elerond

Elerond we should celebrate this momentous historical moment for Finland. I have found this restaurant below in Helsinki, its called Lappi and its looks great. They serve Reindeer and I have never eaten Reindeer before, dont worry I will pay. What time should I make the reservation ...8:30 pm ?  

https://lappires.com/en/homepage/

Let wait to next week, so that our parliament is able to send official application.

8:30 pm is good for me any day to go in Lappi 

[Malcador]

Well, my assassins know where to go now...

[kanisatha]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

They serve Reindeer and I have never eaten Reindeer before

Reindeer sausage is delicious!

[kanisatha]

Some of you here have asked me for my assesment of Finland's defense capabilities. Here you go; an excellent and very current review of Finnish defense:

https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/what-would-finland-bring-to-the-table-for-nato/

[kanisatha]

According to various news sources, Finland is ready to submit it's NATO application on Monday. Sweden's Social Democrats are to debate and vote this Sunday on changing their party's longstanding opposition to NATO membership. Though they are divided, it is expected the pro-NATO side will win. Then, with the Social Democrats on board alonside most other parties (only the Socialists and Greens are still opposed), there is expected to be overwhelming support in the Swedish parliament vote on Monday. After that, Sweden is expected to submit its NATO application on Wednesday.

And then, Russia's goose will truly be cooked. Oh how I wish I could check in on Palputin's thoughts right now.

[Totally unrelated and irrelevant personal side-note: Hey Finns, your prime minister is gorgeous!! ]

Edited May 12, 2022 by kanisatha