Ukraine Conflict - "Only the dead have seen the end of war."

[Raithe]

PTW - In The Game for Ukraine

Some of the game industry’s biggest voice acting talent will join forces at SIDE London to fundraise for Ukraine during an upcoming livestream on Saturday May 7th, 2022, starting at 2pm BST.

Titled “In the Game for Ukraine” the event will feature favorite voice actors performing famous scenes from the games we love, all in aid of the Red Cross – Ukraine Crisis Appeal. The event will be livestreamed with IGN--one of game and entertainment’s biggest news outlets, and hosted by SIDE.

Who will be performing? Some of the fantastic talent confirmed below:

• Uncharted 4’s Troy Baker and Nolan North
• Doug ****le and Jaimi Barbakoff - as The Witcher’s Geralt and Triss
• Joseph May (Episodes) as LEGO City Undercover’s bumbling cop Chase McCaine
• Alix Wilton Regan as Cyberpunk 2077’s Alt
• BAFTA-winning Jane Perry resurrecting once again in Returnal
• Joseph Balderrama and Annabelle Dowler as the parents in It Takes Two (The Game Awards’ Game of the Year)
• Steven Hartley’s perfect game voice as Petrus in GreedFall
• Shai Matheson as flirty Sylvando in Dragon Quest XI
• Steffan Rhodri (Gavin & Stacey) giving his Welsh best in Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch

The livestream will feature interviews, behind-the-scenes content and stories on what it takes to bring these unforgettable characters and games to life.

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/second-russian-warship-struck-ukraine-203251876.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall 

 

I have just seen this story again on Al-Jazeera this time, do we have any confirmation?

[Gorth]

Just a heads up, I moved the EU conversation to the politics thread, as it had turned less relevant for the current war in Ukraine....

[Mamoulian War]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://news.yahoo.com/second-russian-warship-struck-ukraine-203251876.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall 

 

I have just seen this story again on Al-Jazeera this time, do we have any confirmation?

Not yet, i am waiting on the ISW report tonight. They mentioned it yesterday, but were unable to confirm it by independent sources.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Zoraptor]

11 hours ago, Gorth said:

The Conservative Party in England did a much better job of that than Putin could ever have done. Orban and whatshisname in Poland are also causing a lot of friction from the inside. Yes, those former WP states who so looove the EU....

And that really is the thing. Pro EU people like to say that anti EU populists are there because of Russia and people vote for them because of Russian influence; because that means their views don't have to be taken seriously.

Which ignores the fact that 'anti EU populists' have always been there, and they're only 'populists' because, well, such a disproportionately small number of mainstream politicians represent their views. Even when the EU was still the E(E)C and basically still just a trading bloc you regularly got 1/3 of voters not wanting to join. If Brexit had been a parliamentary vote it wouldn't have even been close; probably a 4:1 margin for staying in when the popular vote was ~1:1. And to keep it relevant, you can see that in all the current talk of NATO accession for Sweden and Finland where politicians who are and always have been disproportionately pro NATO want to accede by parliamentary fiat- and really don't want it put to referendum.

[Elerond]

On 5/6/2022 at 11:54 PM, Zoraptor said:

 

No. They. Didn't.

Really, it's not that hard to actually check these things. The EU made it an 'us or them' situation, not the Russians.

 

They did

And EU didn't make it us or them.

You can check it yourself

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

 

Quote

Thousands of people have staged fresh protests in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, at President Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign an EU association agreement.

Some 10,000 Demonstrators in Independence Square carried Ukrainian and EU flags late on Friday and chanted "Ukraine is Europe".

Mr Yanukovych, who attended an EU summit in Lithuania on Friday cited pressure from Russia for his decision.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-trade-idUSKCN0HI1T820140923

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia

https://www.brookings.edu/on-the-record/why-did-ukraines-yanukovych-give-in-to-russian-pressure-on-eu-deal/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/ukraine-suspends-preparations-eu-trade-pact

https://www.dw.com/en/harsh-words-with-russia-over-ukraine/a-17301176

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/ukraine-stuns-eu-by-putting-association-deal-on-ice/

https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/analyses/2013-11-27/ukraine-withdraws-signing-association-agreement-vilnius-motives-and

Edited May 7, 2022 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

José Manuel Barroso, February 25, 2013: "one country cannot at the same time be a member of a customs union [ie the agreement with Russia] and be in a deep common free-trade area with the European Union".

I think the President of the European Commission trumps the BBC as a source for EU policy, and it's 100% clear from that that the choice was forced by the EU, not the Russians. If he was going off the reservation you'd also expect that Herman van Rompuy, who was standing right next to him, would correct him.

I can provide a long list of citations too, if you like, but all yours did was illustrate how bad the coverage was.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

From full quote you see that Barroso didn't put it as them or us , or demanded that Ukraine can't be in trade union with Russia, but the agreement between Ukraine and EU needs to take account that free trade deal would be only between Ukraine and EU not with any trade partner of Ukraine

 

"Agreements on the establishment of a deep and comprehensive free trade area between the EU and Ukraine contain obligations that need to be fulfilled. We discussed this issue with President [Viktor] Yanukovych today. Our positions were clearly defined... One country cannot at the same time be a member of a customs union and be in a deep common free-trade area with the European Union. This is not possible," Barroso said.

However, he noted that there are "some pragmatic ways to address this issue."

"And we have to respect the position of Ukraine," Barroso said, adding that Kyiv and Brussels have a common goal of political association and economic integration.

 

EDIT:

Also Association Agreement that was blocked was not the mentioned "deep common free-trade area"  but agreement to increase co-operation between EU and Ukraine and within 10 years form agreement about free(r) trade area between EU and Ukraine. So Ukraine could have signed it and be member of customs union with Russia. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Elerond

[xzar_monty]

I listened to a lecture by a former intelligence officer on where Russia and Ukraine have succeeded and failed so far. While the failures of Russia are fairly evident ("nearly everything"), this officer pointed out an interesting Ukrainian failure. Zelenskyi & co failed to strengthen their military positions and prepare adequately before the war started, because they wanted to avoid provoking Russians. But as the officer pointed out, "not provoking Russians is impossible, so this was a big failure from Ukraine. If all else fails, Russia will simply fabricate a cause for war." As people interested in military history will remember, the Winter War did indeed start from a Russian fabrication, an event called the Shelling of Mainila. So I would agree that Ukraine was naive in this regard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Also, on a different topic, it was interesting to read on how various countries have come to Ukraine's aid. Inside the EU, it was particularly interesting to see some numbers concerning countries furthest away from the war. For example, Portugal has assisted Ukraine ten times more (per capita) than Spain has. I have no idea as to why this may be, but the difference is interesting. Both of them have given less than peanuts per capita compared to countries like Estonia, and while this difference is easy to explain, the difference between Portugal and Spain is not, especially if you know as little about those countries' internal politics as I do. (From among the countries mentioned in the list I saw, Spain was one of the worst helpers.)

[BruceVC]

30 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I listened to a lecture by a former intelligence officer on where Russia and Ukraine have succeeded and failed so far. While the failures of Russia are fairly evident ("nearly everything"), this officer pointed out an interesting Ukrainian failure. Zelenskyi & co failed to strengthen their military positions and prepare adequately before the war started, because they wanted to avoid provoking Russians. But as the officer pointed out, "not provoking Russians is impossible, so this was a big failure from Ukraine. If all else fails, Russia will simply fabricate a cause for war." As people interested in military history will remember, the Winter War did indeed start from a Russian fabrication, an event called the Shelling of Mainila. So I would agree that Ukraine was naive in this regard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Also, on a different topic, it was interesting to read on how various countries have come to Ukraine's aid. Inside the EU, it was particularly interesting to see some numbers concerning countries furthest away from the war. For example, Portugal has assisted Ukraine ten times more (per capita) than Spain has. I have no idea as to why this may be, but the difference is interesting. Both of them have given less than peanuts per capita compared to countries like Estonia, and while this difference is easy to explain, the difference between Portugal and Spain is not, especially if you know as little about those countries' internal politics as I do. (From among the countries mentioned in the list I saw, Spain was one of the worst helpers.)

Interesting but not surprising that Ukraine wasnt prepared because their was a well meaning, albeit pointless, attempt by the West to avoid a confrontation with Putin and they influenced Ukraine in certain ways to also not be confrontational. 

But as we now know Putin a warmonger and a liar and that mistake the West wont make again 

Im must say Im very disappointed with Spains lack of help towards Ukraine but its not a complete surprise 

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/russias-victory-day-may-9-190200441.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Tomorrow is a big day for Russia, May 9 and Victory Day

Their is a view that Putin will officially declare " war " on Ukraine due to the numerous problems with the overall Russian military strategy

So predictions? Will Putin announce changes to Putins War and troop deployment

For me it doesnt really matter what he announces, either way the invasion will continue one way or another until Russia retreats or they are defeated militarily 

[Malcador]

Hopefully he finds some way to troll the Western expectations.

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

Hopefully he finds some way to troll the Western expectations.

Why?

[xzar_monty]

23 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

So predictions? Will Putin announce changes to Putins War and troop deployment

My take is the same as my take on transfer rumours in football (soccer, for those who wish to have it that way), i.e. let's see what has happened once May 9 (or transfer deadline day) is over.

[Lexx]

Whatever happens tomorrow likely won't change anything.

However, would be funny if their doomsday plane accidentally drops its payload on the parade.

[Malcador]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Why?

Because it'd be funny at mostly the media's expense (or the very chatty UK government). 

3 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

My take is the same as my take on transfer rumours in football (soccer, for those who wish to have it that way), i.e. let's see what has happened once May 9 (or transfer deadline day) is over.

You're overqualified for Sky Sports with that analysis.

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

My take is the same as my take on transfer rumours in football (soccer, for those who wish to have it that way), i.e. let's see what has happened once May 9 (or transfer deadline day) is over.

Sure but thats why I said predictions, its just a guess 

[xzar_monty]

3 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Because it'd be funny at mostly the media's expense (or the very chatty UK government).

I don't have much respect for the current UK government(*) and I'm also a fan of carnivalization, but I can't really apply it to situations where civilians are actually raped, killed and so on. I've worked for about a year in an orthopedic hospital where they brought (mostly) children from the former Yugoslavia, mostly children with zero to three limbs left, and after experiences like that, wholesale slaughter tends to lose its funny side. I heartily recommend something similar to you as well! (Not the slaughter, but the experience of dedicating your time and effort to helping others.)

As for Sky Sports, I understand the first requirement is a PhD in Wafflology.

(*) But then I don't see much point in focusing on it, either.

[xzar_monty]

14 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Whatever happens tomorrow likely won't change anything.

There's this, but then there's the fact that the day is huge in Russia, and there's this tremendous build-up for it. So, the journalist in me is inclined to say that it's going to be interesting -- because you can use that word to signify pretty much anything.

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I don't have much respect for the current UK government(*) and I'm also a fan of carnivalization, but I can't really apply it to situations where civilians are actually raped, killed and so on. I've worked for about a year in an orthopedic hospital where they brought (mostly) children from the former Yugoslavia, mostly children with zero to three limbs left, and after experiences like that, wholesale slaughter tends to lose its funny side. I heartily recommend something similar to you as well! (Not the slaughter, but the experience of dedicating your time and effort to helping others.)

As for Sky Sports, I understand the first requirement is a PhD in Wafflology.

(*) But then I don't see much point in focusing on it, either.

 

If you dont mind sharing, why dont you respect the current UK government. Is it because of Partygate ?

[xzar_monty]

Just now, BruceVC said:

If you dont mind sharing, why dont you respect the current UK government. Is it because of Partygate ?

No, although of course that doesn't help. Let's start with the fact that Boris Johnson is an inveterate liar who is not to be trusted with anything. Once you have someone like that as prime minister, the credibility of your government is very seriously undermined. The UK government has made a pretty decent response in many respects, but given what it's up against, that was essentially the least anyone could expect. In my view, it has been quite some time since the UK had good leadership.

To witness Boris Johnson in his element, flippantly denying the reality around him, just watch this very short clip. It's horrifying.

 

[pmp10]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Zelenskyi & co failed to strengthen their military positions and prepare adequately before the war started, because they wanted to avoid provoking Russians. But as the officer pointed out, "not provoking Russians is impossible, so this was a big failure from Ukraine.

There was even a claim by one analyst that Ukraine could have won the war if only it mobilized in December.
But the reality is that despite military aid in the billions some of their soldiers are still serving near the front without rifles.
I don't see how they could effectively arm mobilized force back then. 

As for provoking Russia - it's never that simple as mobilization carries a major responsibility for escalating conflicts in the eyes of international community.
The narrative that Ukraine somehow forced Putin to invade is doing rounds even now.
It would be so much better received if this could have been sold as a preemptive attack. 

[Malcador]

9 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I don't have much respect for the current UK government(*) and I'm also a fan of carnivalization, but I can't really apply it to situations where civilians are actually raped, killed and so on. I've worked for about a year in an orthopedic hospital where they brought (mostly) children from the former Yugoslavia, mostly children with zero to three limbs left, and after experiences like that, wholesale slaughter tends to lose its funny side. I heartily recommend something similar to you as well! (Not the slaughter, but the experience of dedicating your time and effort to helping others.)

As for Sky Sports, I understand the first requirement is a PhD in Wafflology.

(*) But then I don't see much point in focusing on it, either.

The amusement in an expected announcement and the accompanying hype and endless discussion ending in nothing is quite apart from people dying or brutality occurring though. The level of discussion around the net on this war, mainly social media, is pretty moronic - stupid memes, jokes or excitement at combat footage.  I assume a lot is NA teenagers who just watch war on TV and played a lot of COD or something, though.

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

The level of discussion around the net on this war, mainly social media, is pretty moronic - stupid memes, jokes or excitement at combat footage.  I assume a lot is NA teenagers who just watch war on TV and played a lot of COD or something, though.

I agree. But in my view, that's not a discussion worth considering or essentially even talking about (and again, I'm contradicting myself by saying this).

Discussion at that level has always existed, but social media has brought it to the fore and in a "printed" format, whereas it used to be just babble in pubs and locker rooms and whatnot. The fact that it's out there and sort of "written down" tends to give it a veneer of, I don't know, something worth attending to, but clearly almost none of it is worth anything. It's quite a shame that respectable media and all that babble exists sort of side by side on the internet, which can also render them an illusion of equal weight, or something, which of course is not true. (And I'm not saying that all the "respecatble media" coverage is good -- of course it's not, and it never has been.)

Yeah, you knew all this already, so apologies for stating the obvious.

[Malcador]

14 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

There was even a claim by one analyst that Ukraine could have won the war if only it mobilized in December.
But the reality is that despite military aid in the billions some of their soldiers are still serving near the front without rifles.
I don't see how they could effectively arm mobilized force back then. 

As for provoking Russia - it's never that simple as mobilization carries a major responsibility for escalating conflicts in the eyes of international community.
The narrative that Ukraine somehow forced Putin to invade is doing rounds even now.
It would be so much better received if this could have been sold as a preemptive attack. 

They just needed a Ukrainian curveball (surprised they didn't kill that guy)