Ukraine Conflict - Alle Dinge unterliegen Interpretation je nachdem, was Interpretation zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt herrscht, ist eine Funktion der Macht und nicht die Wahrheit

[Darkpriest]

4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What do you mean by " Russia didnt attack any countries or seize the assets " ....they invaded Ukraine and decided to unilaterally recreate the borders of a sovereign  country

Thats why their are Western sanctions against them, what do you mean by "unilatteral decision to ban trading"

 

That while such actions would be deemed fine by Ukraine in terms of response to direct hostilities, there is nothing that mandates such a direct and hostile economic action from non-involved parties. Russia did not attack EU or US or UK assets nor did it seize as first actor any assets of such. The US voilated existing contracts of companies first. 

 

By this logic an attack on a soverign nation of Iraq or Syria or Libia or Serbia etc. could be deemed sufficient to have all countries cease doing business with US, EU etc. 

[Darkpriest]

2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Would be interesting to see what non-unilateral sanctions look like.

By that logic, Russia also imposes sanctions. It does not break any contracts, if its stipulated as sanctions and accepted by other members of international community? 

[Darkpriest]

In short, when countries start using economics and trade in an instrumental and political fashion, credibilty of all invovled parties crashes. 

 

That's why you will start seeing more and more decoupling from USD and EUR based transactions and much more billateral transactions in currencies of trading partners. This is probably also what might explain a surge in RUB value despite historical heights of USD value. 

 

Edit, for context 1USD is equal to 72.25 RUB which is higjest RUB value in a while, while USD index is at 103.5+++, (JPY and EUR crash against USD) 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

That while such actions would be deemed fine by Ukraine in terms of response to direct hostilities, there is nothing that mandates such a direct and hostile economic action from non-involved parties. Russia did not attack EU or US or UK assets nor did it seize as first actor any assets of such. The US voilated existing contracts of companies first. 

 

By this logic an attack on a soverign nation of Iraq or Syria or Libia or Serbia etc. could be deemed sufficient to have all countries cease doing business with US, EU etc. 

Oh I think I understand your point, are you concerned with the way Russian assets and Russian companies have been targeted and or sanctioned by the West and their allies. Its a simple criticism to the term " weaponization of the dollar " 

Is that you mean and if so yes I agree some of the sanctions may seem unfair and extreme but individual countries can enforce these types of sanctions legally 

For example in the US the decision to freeze Russian Central Bank using dollars I am sure had full Congress approval so its not illegal

 

[HoonDing]

At this point there's no longer any way for this to not end in nuclear armageddon.

 

[Darkpriest]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Oh I think I understand your point, are you concerned with the way Russian assets and Russian companies have been targeted and or sanctioned by the West and their allies. Its a simple criticism to the term " weaponization of the dollar " 

Is that you mean and if so yes I agree some of the sanctions may seem unfair and extreme but individual countries can enforce these types of sanctions legally 

For example in the US the decision to freeze Russian Central Bank using dollars I am sure had full Congress approval so its not illegal

 

Yes, so by that logic legislation approved by Duma in Russia is also not illegal, right?

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Yes, so by that logic legislation approved by Duma in Russia is also not illegal, right?

I was hoping you werent going to say that  ....its a good point and I need sometime to do some research. Let me back to you about this 

 

[kanisatha]

54 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I have been following this on numerous international news channels, the killing of Ukrainian civilians and abuse of Ukrainian captured soldiers is much worse and widespread than  I thought 

Some of the Russian military are acting in a more barbaric and inhumane way than I could have ever thought possible 

Their is definitely a case of War Crimes to be answered to on a myriad of different examples 

Yeah. Particularly heartbreaking was reading through the descrptions of how Russian troops were given explict permission, and even encouragement, to commit rape, and this included girls of very young ages who were gang-raped and then killed and their bodies burned to try and cover up the evidence.

[Mamoulian War]

19 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Yeah, BBG had some **** ups today apparently, as they've caused misinformation with the Austrian and Slovak part. Haven't seen Germans openly denounce that. 

BBG ****ed up also some data release on Meta, not that it helped FB ticker in any way today... 

 

Interestingly, while the USD is highest in value in 20 years, RUB is gaining value on it still. Not sure who is pumping the RUB because this is beyond actions of what Russia alone could have done with regulations. 

I have not seen any information about Germany denying this rumours as well, but in Slovakian news, there was big turmoil about that BBG article today...

10 hours ago, pmp10 said:

Or more likely politicians just don't want to know.
If no one (save maybe Hungary) was really breaking-out they could find ways to confirm that. 

I suspect that when all this is over with, we will find out that many countries secretly caved. 

I can not comment on Austria and Germany, but in Slovakia, the people in our current government had pretty significant anti-russian sentiments in past and nowadays. There is only one excel-**** in the government, who would be OK to make business even with a crossbreed of Mao, Hitler and Pol-Pot during nuclear holocaust, but he was silenced pretty much immediately after speaking out. So the statements about Slovakia not paying in rubles is for now pretty plausible. We'll see in a month, when there will be due another payment...

[kanisatha]

In another finding that was presented to the UNHRC, and corroborated by ICC and EU war crimes investigators, people in occupied parts of Ukraine have been sent notes demanding that x amount of money in cash be dropped off at some location by a certain time or else they will receive a video showing the execution of their family member.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Darkpriest said:

That could in theory be said also on US and EU as it was their unilatteral decision to ban trading etc. Despite existing contracts. This is a two way street, so one has to be really careful with all sorts of absolutisms. 

Russia did not attack any of the countries or seize the assets of such, which unilaterally broke trade relationships in multiple sectors. They did act in response to economic hostilities. 

US and EU acted according to Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which Russia has also signed

Russia broke their several of their international agreements and their own constitution 

53 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

By that logic, Russia also imposes sanctions. It does not break any contracts, if its stipulated as sanctions and accepted by other members of international community? 

If they have legal reason to impose sanctions then they don't break any contracts but otherwise they do.

Acceptance of legal sanctions is stipulated by UN General Assembly or UN security council which both Russia is also member

38 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Yes, so by that logic legislation approved by Duma in Russia is also not illegal, right?

It is not in Russia (except cases where approved legislation is against Russian constitution and Duma didn't use constitutional change process), but it does not mean that it isn't against agreements signed by Russia,

Edited April 28, 2022 by Elerond

[Malcador]

40 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

At this point there's no longer any way for this to not end in nuclear armageddon.

And Star Citizen still hasn't come out.

[Lexx]

Well, it's playable since a few years now. Is it well playable? That's a different thing.

[xzar_monty]

54 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

In another finding that was presented to the UNHRC, and corroborated by ICC and EU war crimes investigators, people in occupied parts of Ukraine have been sent notes demanding that x amount of money in cash be dropped off at some location by a certain time or else they will receive a video showing the execution of their family member.

As much as this is horrifying, it is also fascinating, in a terrible sense, because it is so close to what the Russians did during the Great Northern War. Babies were tortured in front of their parents, and parents were tortured in front of their children (not babies, as that would not mean much). It is not enough simply to kill, or even to kill by torturing: it is important that the loved ones of the people killed by torturing witness the act. This was three hundred years ago, and it's still their modus operandi.

One particularly distasteful aspect of war is that not only is it itself brutalizing, but once you have a situation where enemies (either soldiers of civilians) are completely under your control, this gives the perfect opportunity for every resentment and every pathology you may carry in yourself to come forth. Which is why we see these horrific things over and over again. With Russia, the situation is particualrly dire because essentially the whole citizenry has been institutionally brutalized for centuries, with no respite.

An unrelated but somehow related bit of trivia: the game show Who Wants To Be a Millionaire? works differently in Russia. Contestants tend to avoid the "Ask the audience" option -- because the audience will not help the contestant. It wants the contestant to fail. It will try to give a wrong answer. That's the spirit in Russia.

Edited April 28, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

50 minutes ago, Elerond said:

US and EU acted according to Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which Russia has also signed

Russia broke their several of their international agreements and their own constitution 

If they have legal reason to impose sanctions then they don't break any contracts but otherwise they do.

Acceptance of legal sanctions is stipulated by UN General Assembly or UN security council which both Russia is also member

It is not in Russia (except cases where approved legislation is against Russian constitution and Duma didn't use constitutional change process), but it does not mean that it isn't against agreements signed by Russia,

Thanks Elerond, thats a much better response to Darks point than I could think of

 

[Malcador]

23 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

An unrelated but somehow related bit of trivia: the game show Who Wants To Be a Millionaire? works differently in Russia. Contestants tend to avoid the "Ask the audience" option -- because the audience will not help the contestant. It wants the contestant to fail. It will try to give a wrong answer. That's the spirit in Russia

That's better, I find.  

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

That's better, I find.  

Well let's say I'm not surprised.

[Darkpriest]

@Elerondi believe that US itself killed the Memorandom as not legally biding, but more of a political commitment way before 2014 as it was justifying actions against Belarus. 

Although the Memorandum is not legally binding, we take these political commitments seriously and do not believe any U.S. sanctions, whether imposed because of human rights or non-proliferation concerns, are inconsistent with our commitments to Belarus under the Memorandum or undermine them

 

I can't comment on the UN part and any other agreements, as I have no knowledge on those and really no time to look for some well composed summary of those. 

 

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

 

An unrelated but somehow related bit of trivia: the game show Who Wants To Be a Millionaire? works differently in Russia. Contestants tend to avoid the "Ask the audience" option -- because the audience will not help the contestant. It wants the contestant to fail. It will try to give a wrong answer. That's the spirit in Russia.

That cant be true....can it? Thats one of the funniest things I have ever heard because it just represents perfectly  some of Russia's citizens  indifference and callousness 

[Malcador]

2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Well let's say I'm not surprised.

It's just a game show, heh.  But good to know how evil all Russians are.

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/british-man-killed-second-missing-150026787.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Sad news, a British man has been killed in Ukraine 

People like him from all countries will be remembered as soldiers who lost their lives in the fight against tyranny and in support of the Ukrainian people. A brave and honorable man  

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

https://news.yahoo.com/british-man-killed-second-missing-150026787.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Sad news, a British man has been killed in Ukraine 

People like him from all countries will be remembered as soldiers who lost their lives in the fight against tyranny and in support of the Ukrainian people. A brave and honorable man  

Given everyone else that's died so far, is kind of funny how this is news.

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Given everyone else that's died so far, is kind of funny how this is news.

I think he is the first British person killed in the military conflict in Ukraine . It was on Sky News so it must  matter

[213374U]

Daily reminder that "US officials assert" =/= evidence.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-using-declassified-intel-fight-info-war-russia-even-intel-isnt-rock-rcna23014

[xzar_monty]

27 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Given everyone else that's died so far, is kind of funny how this is news.

It's news in a particular context. (Your point is still valid, though, as it's a bit strange even in that particular context. A context where it would be appropriate would be something like the family and friends of that dead person.)

Reading about the war in different languages (via different outlets in different locations) gives fairly good insight on how manifold the perspectives are. It's somewhat disappointing to note, however, that the perspectives most certainly do not add up to a coherent whole. Some perspectives are, of course, rather obviously more outrageous than others.