Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 4

[bugarup]

Lann is not a niceguy, just socially awkward and bit pushy guy. That niceguy thing comes from reddit and I swear that Wrathfinder's redditards are just a bunch of AIs (themselves with niceguy.dll somewhere no less)  who desperately try to emulate human behaviour and yet never quite pass that Turing test. "Beep boop, we love and are protective of Ember very much, because we are totally humans who do human things like being protective of small humans known as children, beep boop, and Ember is a totally normal child and not unholy, reality-altering abomination in the making!" "Beep boop, Lann is such a niceguy, now validate us, human females of Internet and you cannot validate without date, eh? Eh??? " 

Edited September 27, 2022 by bugarup

[Gorth]

6 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I hate this, btw. I think Owlcat just blatantly cheats. There is no way you can prepare for this kind of stuff unless you metagame.

To be fair, it looks like it was something I brought upon myself. I had defeated him, then couldn't resist the temptation to mock and taunt him while he was down...

I noticed that it earned me a "rare" achievement:

 

 

 

 

[xzar_monty]

29 minutes ago, Gorth said:

To be fair, it looks like it was something I brought upon myself. I had defeated him, then couldn't resist the temptation to mock and taunt him while he was down...

OK. So, in this instance, it appears justified, possibly.

But there are other instances of this and other related phenomena in the game. I'm sure you've done parts of Regill's quest by now, so you know the one where a group of people retreat into a cave to escape the gargoyles. Well, once you enter that cave, you are attacked by those very same gargoyles, some of whom appear to come through the roof. I was mightily annoyed by this. By all means have them enter the cave through the regular entrance (which they do), that makes perfect sense, but to have those creatures just suddenly come through the roof was so unfair. If there's a hole big enough to let such creatures in, knowledge of this should be relayed to the player (and at that point we might actually question whether the place qualifies as a "cave"). But don't just let them appear like that: the player has no way to prepare, and it's just unfair. I wonder if you agree. Even if we're in a fantasy world, certain principles of logic should apply, in my view.

As for enemies respawning themselves, you've still got plenty of stuff to look forward to.

[majestic]

On 9/26/2022 at 8:57 AM, Gromnir said:

is similar exploits for angel, legend, azata and every other mythic path, though admitted am less keen on gold dragon for unfair battles as is kinda lacking in subtlety and relying near complete on a blunt force approach.

For fun I just started the Inevitable Excess DLC and created a level 20 Gold Dragon character. Stats are naked, without buffs and a regular +5 Fauchard.

Buff properly, debuff enemies, activate Perfect Strike and Dimensional Strike and whatever he's pointed at will certainly feel enough blunt trauma to run back home to mommy and cry, and if it for some reason doesn't, there's still his ability to cast True Strike at will. I was too lazy to make more than one screenshot, he also has Shatter Defenses and Cleaving Finish and can activate all sorts of weapon enhancements through his arcane pool (also has Archmage Armor).

Grave Singer would yield x5 critical hits and would probably be the better weapon for the character.

Probably not exactly what Owlcat had in mind when they designed the Gold Dragon mythic path, but, like, whatever.

Edit: Fun Exploit of the Day: If you get any item that grants your character spells, you can apply metamagic to them. If you then remove the item in question, the regular versions will disappear. The metamagic'ed versions will remain. You know, just in case you ever wanted Ember or your Oracle MC to have Chain Lightning.

Edited September 27, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

17 minutes ago, majestic said:

For fun I just started the Inevitable Excess DLC and created a level 20 Gold Dragon character. Stats are naked, without buffs and a regular +5 Fauchard.

Buff properly, debuff enemies, activate Perfect Strike and Dimensional Strike and whatever he's pointed at will certainly feel enough blunt trauma to run back home to mommy and cry, and if it for some reason doesn't, there's still his ability to cast True Strike at will. I was too lazy to make more than one screenshot, he also has Shatter Defenses and Cleaving Finish and can activate all sorts of weapon enhancements through his arcane pool (also has Archmage Armor).

Grave Singer would yield x5 critical hits and would probably be the better weapon for the character.

Probably not exactly what Owlcat had in mind when they designed the Gold Dragon mythic path, but, like, whatever.

Edit: Fun Explot of the Day: If you get any item that grants your character spells, you can apply metamagic to them. If you then remove the item in question, the regular versions will disappear. The metamagic'ed versions will remain. You know, just in case you ever wanted Ember or your Oracle MC to have Chain Lightning.

That's a nice exploit. Naughty , but nice.

I think the intention with the Gold Dragon was the fix your build path. But I think we all know what immunity to a bunch of **** and +25 Bab with Trickster feats is going to do to the game. Owlcat Owlcat'd themselves there.

I did a Legend with Paladin/Vivisectionist/Scaled Fist/Sword Saint. Unfortunately no trickster feats, because IE makes you take Legend at Mythic 3.

[majestic]

32 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

I did a Legend with Paladin/Vivisectionist/Scaled Fist/Sword Saint. Unfortunately no trickster feats, because IE makes you take Legend at Mythic 3.

Having good fun with Legend and the possible exploits you can come up with requires playing through the game normally. The metamagic exploit also works with mythic path spells in merged spellbooks, so in theory if you just slap Favorite Metamagic: Extend and Bolster on your Sorcerer, you could fill your spellbook with many of the Lich spells you get up until you switch to Legend, and they'd, well, still be in there.

Lich Sorc/DD/EK to level 20 and then round out with something else that does decent melee oomph. Add 11 levels of Paladin for the supreme lolz of a Paladin casting Lich spells while killing things left and right with Grave Singer.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

9 minutes ago, majestic said:

Having good fun with Legend and the possible exploits you can come up with requires playing through the game normally. The metamagic exploit also works with mythic path spells in merged spellbooks, so in theory if you just slap Favorite Metamagic: Extend and Bolster on your Sorcerer, you could fill your spellbook with many of the Lich spells you get up until you switch to Legend, and they'd, well, still be in there.

Lich Sorc/DD/EK to level 20 and then round out with something else that does decent melee oomph. Add 11 levels of Paladin for the supreme lolz of a Paladin casting Lich spells while killing things left and right with Grave Singer.  

I think that the merged spellbooks persist after Legend, so you don't even need to do that exploit to keep the Angel or Lich spells. Imagine rolling up as a Sorc or Oracle with a 28 CL spellbook and the stat to AC abilities and some other busted **** like a mutagen or cognotagen.

[InsaneCommander]

Apparently I have defeated Khorramzadeh's army. But it was an extremely pathetic army with no general. I didn't get the achievement for it and now I don't know if there is another Khorramzadeh's army or if he is just a loser and my achievements are broken. Not that I care that much about achievements, but I have Toy Box installed to test builds and another mod to allow Achievements with mods, that I installed before learning that Toybox has that option. Maybe they are messing with each other.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, InsaneCommander said:

Apparently I have defeated Khorramzadeh's army. But it was an extremely pathetic army with no general. I didn't get the achievement for it and now I don't know if there is another Khorramzadeh's army or if he is just a loser and my achievements are broken. Not that I care that much about achievements, but I have Toy Box installed to test builds and another mod to allow Achievements with mods, that I installed before learning that Toybox has that option. Maybe they are messing with each other.

I think you do it twice.

[InsaneCommander]

Good to know. I hope the next one is more of a challenge.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

For fun I just started the Inevitable Excess DLC and created a level 20 Gold Dragon character. Stats are naked, without buffs and a regular +5 Fauchard.

Buff properly, debuff enemies, activate Perfect Strike and Dimensional Strike and whatever he's pointed at will certainly feel enough blunt trauma to run back home to mommy and cry, and if it for some reason doesn't, there's still his ability to cast True Strike at will. I was too lazy to make more than one screenshot, he also has Shatter Defenses and Cleaving Finish and can activate all sorts of weapon enhancements through his arcane pool (also has Archmage Armor).

Grave Singer would yield x5 critical hits and would probably be the better weapon for the character.

Probably not exactly what Owlcat had in mind when they designed the Gold Dragon mythic path, but, like, whatever.

Edit: Fun Exploit of the Day: If you get any item that grants your character spells, you can apply metamagic to them. If you then remove the item in question, the regular versions will disappear. The metamagic'ed versions will remain. You know, just in case you ever wanted Ember or your Oracle MC to have Chain Lightning.

'course this kinda thing also makes obvious how kp wailing 'bout broken bosses on an unfair run is nonsense. if you know the exploits, every boss fight ends in a couple rounds o' anti-climax 'cause you got a party o' well-prepared sooper characters with ideal gear and buffs. 

is also noteworthy how is possible to build sooper builds for all o' the mythics, and the gold dragon is unlikely to represent the most exploitive as is relative straightforward compared to the other broken arse mythics. can build azata casters with dcs in the +60 range and demon cavaliers doing +40k in a round. owlcat made no effort to balance and the exploits is just  plain stoopid, but you shouldn't need play that way on core and normal.

@xzar_montythe gargoyle cave is one o' the more annoying encounters am recalling from our initial beta runs... before we knew every loophole and had seen that particular battle a few times so we were aware we had to position our party kinda backwards and what spells the gargoyle clerics would cast and who they would target. were a serious "wtf" kinda battle. sure, the tavern defense were a slog, but we were not the least bit prepared for just how many waves o' foes we weould need to face in the gargoyle cave.

were other frustrating battles. am recalling the single succubus and her enthralled minions in kenabres were also unpleasant... and the lone shadow demon in the basement which were unnecessarily difficult 'cause it were bugged and immune to a whole lotta damage to which it shoulda been vulnerable. playful darkness were providing unnecessary shock value. 

post act iii, the game became much easier, but for us the main reason for that is 'cause we had played the beta to death and we already knew what powers and abilities were well nigh essential. 

wotr is designed to appeal to hardcore players and to punish everybody else. am not sure how that works, but sales have been good, so...

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

21 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Good to know. I hope the next one is more of a challenge.

I think it happens in Act V and he leads the army, but it has been close to a year since I played the main campaign so I don't remember the specifics. Should be more of a challenge than some army without a general though.

Edit: Looks like Owlcat did an AMA with the redditors, who may or may not be replicants. 

Highlights are that the EE isn't introducing any new spells or abilities and that they're considering stuff to make armor tanks more competitive (but not in the EE).

Edited September 27, 2022 by KP From Another World

[Gromnir]

18 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

they're considering stuff to make armor tanks more competitive (but not in the EE).

part o' the problem owlcat has is that pathfinder is built so as to favour the armourless at higher levels. worse, owlcat added stuff such as archmage armour and their own wonky interpretation o' various pnp rules to make armour even less necessary... and then they implemented mounted combat in such a way that armour became even less essential for even classes ordinarily relying on heavy armour. 

anybody else think it is unlikely owlcat has had an epiphany 'bout balance which has 'em sudden embracing josh sawyer as their new guiding light for design philosophy? owlcat will do what they always does, and what their fans want: they will add more sooper powers. doing so will result in new exploits and a handful o' ultrapowerful armoured builds, but am suspecting fans will be largely satisfied.

HA! Good Fun!

[ShadySands]

55 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Highlights are that the EE isn't introducing any new spells

I really wish they'd add more force/missile and ray spells

[Gromnir]

13 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I really wish they'd add more force/missile and ray spells

look on the bright side. even if such spells had been added, owlcat woulda' made most o' the bosses immune to 'em anyway.

edit: alchemists and their force bombs is devastating in wotr, but the developers went outta their way make certain that in most boss battles your force spells would be ineffectual.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I really wish they'd add more force/missile and ray spells

There's only three force spells right now I think? Yeah, they could use more of those.

I'd like to see more touch spells for the Magus to use. I think we've got six right now, including the cantrip that's just there for the extra attack. Eldritch Archer has stuff for every spell level while the melee magi have to grab metamagic to make spellstrike have legs beyond 3rd level spells. Alternatively the close range arcana so I can use a scimitar to crit with umbral strike.

[Gromnir]

28 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

There's only three force spells right now I think? Yeah, they could use more of those.

shield, force armour, force punch, blade barrier, battering blast and magic missile is off the top o' our head, but is an admitted short list. pathfinder has knockoffs o' the bigby hand spells which would be nice additions, and telekinetic storm would provide a nice aoe "spell" although am thinking that one is psychic only.  

am suspecting force immunity for bosses is resulting from blade barrier exploits utilized ad nauseum in kingmaker. just a guess.

HA! Good Fun!

ps insofar as general rays/missiles/bolts, pathfinder doesn't boast a huge list beyond what is already in wotr. dreadbolt? gloomblind bolt? spear of purity? am doubting most people anguish over the absence o' the aforementioned. that said, it does kinda suck that if you are focused on rays in particular and you got moral questions 'bout spamming hellfire rays. spend feats on weapon focus and crit and for what? your options is extreme limited. scorching and polar? frost, enfeeblement, enervation, exhaustion? is all 'bout hellfire and would be nice if there were less infernal spells capable o' filling out your list a bit.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[bugarup]

Yeah, not very Extended, that E. Not really seeing a point of replaying for more ending slides, let alone for photo mode. Why is that a thing even?

[majestic]

54 minutes ago, bugarup said:

[...]let alone for photo mode. Why is that a thing even?

Ask @LadyCrimson.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, bugarup said:

Yeah, not very Extended, that E. Not really seeing a point of replaying for more ending slides, let alone for photo mode. Why is that a thing even?

Hype for the console release.

[InsaneCommander]

Camellia

 

Spoiler

My character was literally exhausted when she arrived in Drezen and received the request from Anevia.

So I used that as an excuse and when I found Camellia in the abandoned house I actually kept asking questions and let her try to convince me of her bs. Not sure what would be better here: to roleplay appropriately and fight her or to pretend my character is stupid and give Camellia a chance. It doesn’t help that if I let her live, she asks me to leave first, making it scandalously obvious that she will finish “the ritual” despite agreeing not to.

I saw no option to arrest her. I think I'll reload and fight her.

 

[majestic]

5 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Camellia

 

  Hide contents

My character was literally exhausted when she arrived in Drezen and received the request from Anevia.

So I used that as an excuse and when I found Camellia in the abandoned house I actually kept asking questions and let her try to convince me of her bs. Not sure what would be better here: to roleplay appropriately and fight her or to pretend my character is stupid and give Camellia a chance. It doesn’t help that if I let her live, she asks me to leave first, making it scandalously obvious that she will finish “the ritual” despite agreeing not to.

I saw no option to arrest her. I think I'll reload and fight her.

Change the gender of your MC, then you can:

Spoiler

Have the hot secks with her on top of the corpse after she consumed his flesh.

However, well, you can:

Spoiler

Agree to let her do her thing, then have Anevia arrest her anyway. She should spawn and talk to you the moment you leave the building.

 

[InsaneCommander]

13 minutes ago, majestic said:

Change the gender of your MC

Where is Neera (and her wild magic) when you need her?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

24 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Camellia

 

  Reveal hidden contents

My character was literally exhausted when she arrived in Drezen and received the request from Anevia.

So I used that as an excuse and when I found Camellia in the abandoned house I actually kept asking questions and let her try to convince me of her bs. Not sure what would be better here: to roleplay appropriately and fight her or to pretend my character is stupid and give Camellia a chance. It doesn’t help that if I let her live, she asks me to leave first, making it scandalously obvious that she will finish “the ritual” despite agreeing not to.

I saw no option to arrest her. I think I'll reload and fight her.

 

If your an Azata, fight her. Of the twelve companions there is at least one of every alignment. I think you can guess what Cammy's is.

16 minutes ago, majestic said:

Change the gender of your MC, then you can:

  Reveal hidden contents

Have the hot secks with her on top of the corpse after she consumed his flesh.

However, well, you can:

  Reveal hidden contents

Agree to let her do her thing, then have Anevia arrest her anyway. She should spawn and talk to you the moment you leave the building.

 

....okie dokie. I knew the Cammy romance would be edgy, but that just seems too on the nose. How will Bruno balance his waifu with LAW AND ORDER?

[majestic]

9 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

....okie dokie. I knew the Cammy romance would be edgy, but that just seems too on the nose. How will Bruno balance his waifu with LAW AND ORDER?

There's also a scene where the MC and Camellia drink a potion of invisibility and go at each other on the balcony of the Citadel in front of Irabeth (who comes checking what the noise is) because apparently half of that romance was written by E. L. James.

edit: Romance!Cammy also gets really, really creepy with her dialogue.

Spoiler

She's also all hot and bothered when she kills Fake!Horus in the brothel and even more so when she kills the real one.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by majestic