Ukraine Conflict - Der Weg zurück

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Georgia, Donbass, Chechnya, Dagestan.

The statement is just strange to say in the first place, as if the millions of dead Asians and Africans are just something to shrug at as part and parcel of reality.

Yes Bosnia and Kosovo count, you right 

But Im not saying millions of dead Africans and Asians dont count. Those are separate wars to this Ukraine invasion 

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Elerond said:

There was ongoing civil war in Ukraine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

 

Thanks, so I was wrong. We have still been killing each other since WW2, my mistake 

[Zoraptor]

3 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

well I would not call Chechnya or Dagestan 'European'...

Are you deliberately trying to prove my point, if so, thanks.

They're literally literally European- unlike Georgia. Ironically, Chechens are also white as anything, being, well Caucasians- from the Caucasus- a lot more than the average whitey. Loads of gingers too. What's the difference that makes them not European? Let's see if we can get an answer which doesn't boil down to them being uncivilised muslims...

4 minutes ago, Sarex said:

And when those particular bombs didn't do anything, then the good old American negotiation kicked in, "retreat or we will bomb you back to the stone age". They would have done it too.

Some people today would get a bit of cognitive dissonance if they searched for Avala Tower or RTS, but I suspect there'd be a lot more "but that's just different, because." Maybe, even if they thought back a year or so to when Israel destroyed the AP building in Gaza. Best to manage expectations though.

38 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Whiffs of whataboutism are a bit in odds with your usual analytical approach, Zooraptor.

That's because it's a personal opinion/ observation, and not really analytics. I might think it's founded on objective reasoning, but I would think that or it wouldn't be my opinion.

I wouldn't dispute that a lot of the level of coverage is because it's happening in Europe, it's also impossible to think there's anything apart from racism at work when reporters specifically say that they're trying not use racist terms to describe something they think. "Surely I can't be racist, I used People of Colour to describe arabs being inherently violent...".

[Malcador]

Just now, BruceVC said:

Yes Bosnia and Kosovo count, you right 

But Im not saying millions of dead Africans and Asians dont count. Those are separate wars to this Ukraine invasion 

Well, you didn't say the statement, so was not accusing you of such. But the reporters saying this does highlight the difference and something that does exist, it's not the only reason people care about it, but is a factor to keep in mind.

 

[Sarex]

4 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Some people today would get a bit of cognitive dissonance if they searched for Avala Tower or RTS, but I suspect there'd be a lot more "but that's just different, because." Maybe, even if they thought back a year or so to when Israel destroyed the AP building in Gaza. Best to manage expectations though.

Difference being that the Russians gave advance warning and only disabled the tower and did not destroy it. NATO leveled the RTS building and Avala tower to the ground without any warning for the civilians to evacuate. The saddest thing, apart from the victims, is that they destroyed most of archives RTS held in their basement.

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Sarex said:

Difference being that the Russians gave advance warning and only disabled the tower and did not destroy it. NATO leveled the RTS building and Avala tower to the ground without any warning for the civilians to evacuate. The saddest thing, apart from the victims, is that they destroyed most of archives RTS held in their basement.

I wish the Russians were still like that and cared about the deaths of civilians, I wonder why they changed like how  they killed brown people in Syria?

[Sarex]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I wish the Russians were still like that and cared about the deaths of civilians, I wonder why they changed like how  they killed brown people in Syria?

Swing and a miss, Bruce, swing and a miss...

[bugarup]

7 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Are you deliberately trying to prove my point, if so, thanks.

They're literally literally European- unlike Georgia. Ironically, Chechens are also white as anything, being, well Caucasians- from the Caucasus- a lot more than the average whitey. Loads of gingers too. What's the difference that makes them not European? Let's see if we can get an answer which doesn't boil down to them being uncivilised muslims...

 

Georgia is European too, as well as Armenia and Azerbaijan, all Caucasians. And according to ol' Soviet definition of races, they, along with yes, Chechens and also Turks, Iranians, Iraqi, Syrians, Indians and other "brown people", are classified as "Europoid race" aka whitest whiteys that ever whited. Race theories are interesting like that.

Also, is comrade yellow's tankie arse aware just how proudly racist his adored Russians very often are? 

 

 

 

[Malcador]

I think once oby got promoted to forums that actually matter, Comrade was assigned to us.

[Chilloutman]

37 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Are you deliberately trying to prove my point, if so, thanks.

They're literally literally European- unlike Georgia. Ironically, Chechens are also white as anything, being, well Caucasians- from the Caucasus- a lot more than the average whitey. Loads of gingers too. What's the difference that makes them not European? Let's see if we can get an answer which doesn't boil down to them being uncivilised muslims...

Kinda? I think I am quite outspoken about not liking Muslim religion. And I think s mosques and turbans are things I don't want to connect with word 'European'.  And as agnostic I don't have problem calling out crazy Christians either. I also dislike commies and nazis.I still live in world where you can call apple an apple.

[Chilloutman]

35 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I wish the Russians were still like that and cared about the deaths of civilians, I wonder why they changed like how  they killed brown people in Syria?

ehh, ever heard of Gulags? Russians never cared about civilians

[Hurlshort]

The potential for nuclear escalation does create a different level of tension over the current Ukraine war and other recent conflicts. It has a very Cold War feel to it.

[Chilloutman]

well its literally cold ward 2.0 if Russian wins so yeah

[Zoraptor]

19 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Georgia is European too, as well as Armenia and Azerbaijan, all Caucasians. And according to ol' Soviet definition of races, they, along with yes, Chechens and also Turks, Iranians, Iraqi, Syrians, Indians and other "brown people", are classified as "Europoid race" aka whitest whiteys that ever whited. Race theories are interesting like that.

The geographic divide of Europe runs through the top of the Caucasus. I know that's fuzzed for a lot of political stuff like Eurovision (hi Israel and, uh, Australia?) but geographic Europe ends at the top of the Caucasus and it's pretty obvious it does from any relief map. That excludes Georgia and everything south of it (exc Azerbaijan, to be fair, that does have some geographical European territory). If you include places like Armenia you have to end up including most of Anatolian Turkey too, Iran, even down to northern Syria and Iraq.

Otherwise you have the Indian subcontinent extending most of the way to Siberia due to how high the Himalayas are and how many subsidiary ranges it generates. Which would be a good way to troll the Chinese, at least. More directly relevant, you never get Europe defined as being the Urals, and its subsidiaries. That line runs down the highest altitude line (and in political terms, generally excludes Kazakhstan which like Turkey/ Azerbaijan has some European territory, in the geographic sense).

And yeah, racial theories == stupid. But you still get plenty of people using terms like Caucasian, and many are amazed that people from the Caucasus are white.

[Sarex]

39 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

The potential for nuclear escalation does create a different level of tension over the current Ukraine war and other recent conflicts. It has a very Cold War feel to it.

There is still a scale of nuclear escalation. Tactical Nuclear weapons don't necessarily equate to endworld scenario, this is the role of strategic Nuclear weapons.

[Zoraptor]

Pretty close to it though, as it would at minimum Demand a Response. If the other side decides that response is disproportionate then you've started a cycle of escalation. If the current situation has some people demanding an armed response and no fly zones imagine what the public would want if the Russians nuked a Polish airbase Ukrainians were flying out of... I doubt they'd care that the first part makes it a justifiable target and skip straight to wanting a mushroom cloud over the Kremlin.

Then again I had an argument here a while ago who someone who thought the US literally nuking Moscow wouldn't necessarily provoke an escalation, so there are varied opinions on the matter.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Bartimaeus]

That seems like a pretty slick mountain road to be going down. Nobody's gone that far before, and probably for good reason - what starts as a "limited tactical nuclear strike" will almost certainly demand an immediate response that demands an immediate response that demands...

(e): Ninja-ed by @Zoraptor.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

For sure, the risk is so high to not be worth it. My point was more along the line that there could be nuclear engagement without the MAD scenario.

[Malcador]

People should go watch Threads, good show.

[Bartimaeus]

16 minutes ago, Sarex said:

For sure, the risk is so high to not be worth it. My point was more along the line that there could be nuclear engagement without the MAD scenario.

I'd be curious to know whether military leadership of NATO and China agree with that...

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

People should go watch Threads, good show.

I've seen the 1984 film - liked "When the Wind Blows" more, .

Edited March 1, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

I've seen the 1984 film - liked "When the Wind Blows" more

That one definitely tries to ruin your mood, granted that's the point, but for some reason I noticed it and stopped feeling depressed for the poor fictional old couple.  

The Maiden song isn't bad, I always like the "Got the will to overcome" lyric.

[Gorth]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Russia can reverse its impending economic collapse, it wont take decades. I would say a friendly Russia can get its economy back in 4-6 years 

Because some of the sanctions that have hurt it the hardest can literally be reversed overnight like the US sanctions on the $ on the Russian central bank. If  the US just  ends that then Russia can access most of its $650 Billion sovereign fund which is mostly in $

Are you sure about that?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/03/world/europe/putin-sanctions-proofing.html

"Crucially, the once-dominant dollar now accounts for only 16 percent of Russia’s currency reserves, which Moscow has replaced with euros, China’s renminbi, and gold."

 

Edit: $631 billion is the nominal value of Russia's currency reserves, but an insignificant part of it is US dollars (according NY Times)

[kanisatha]

This whole notion of "nazis" in Ukraine and how they need to be dealt with is just plain silly. For every one nazi in Ukraine I could very easily identify ten nazis in Russia, including within Putin's circle.

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

The potential for nuclear escalation does create a different level of tension over the current Ukraine war and other recent conflicts. It has a very Cold War feel to it.

Gen X says hello

[Gorth]

13 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

This whole notion of "nazis" in Ukraine and how they need to be dealt with is just plain silly. For every one nazi in Ukraine I could very easily identify ten nazis in Russia, including within Putin's circle.

It probably sounds better on domestic TV. No, the government from 2014 to 2019 wasn't "NAZI", just right wing and very nationalistic. Not the same. But NAZI Germany was the last existential threat to Russia (USSR), hence portraying the enemy as such. You have to go back a lot further to when French troops made it to Moscow, or even when Poland invaded Russia and burnt the city down, but those are most likely too distant events in peoples awareness.