The All Things Political Topic - Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities

[Gorth]

15 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Someone got out  of the wrong side of their bed this morning 

Its not relevant at all to any of those things you mention, I would have thought  my point was clear? Criticize what people say and do and not what clothes they wear 

And you sound like the Russian media calling her out for incompetence and arrogance....thats the state controlled and influenced media  of course

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/russias-sergei-lavrov-describes-liz-truss-talks-as-speaking-to-a-deaf-person-amid-ukraine-tensions-1452975

Lavrov claims " she was unprepared for the meeting" and it was like  "“speaking to a deaf person who listens but does not hear.”

Their is nothing to prepare for something which is blatantly clear to everyone but Russia and Russian apologists. Putin has built up troops on the border of Ukraine and threatens the sovereignty of Ukraine

What exactly should she had said? "Hi Lavrov, we have no issue with what you doing because you not doing exactly what we see you doing " 

How is she arrogant and how did she embarrass the UK over this meeting? Unless of course you referring to other incidents which I am not sure how they relevant to what Zora mentioned ? 

If you go into a diplomatic engagement and one part prepares detailed explanations and suggestions and the other part has a shopping list of threats and ultimatums which just got repeated over and over, completely unwilling to acknowledge that, their counterpart may actually have something to say, failed. Badly. Yes, she did fail rather badly (hence my remarks about her lack of ability). Dressing up as a Maggie Doll (which is what Zor was referring to) doesn't give her the respect Margaret Thatcher earned through a life of hard work and *skill*. Way to give Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson a run for their money... Feel free to watch all two hours of the conversation if you feel like it.

The way western leaders deal with the disagreement pretty much divides them up into two camps. Those who are "safe", with no scandals or looming elections/votes of no confidence ahead of them (Germany and France) and those who could very much use something to take peoples minds of such things (UK and USA). Boris Johnson might not even be around for the next election (being deposed by his own party) and Biden has an economy, that seems headed for a free fall, which wont help domestic social stability.

[pmp10]

10 hours ago, rjshae said:

Supposedly the Ukraine has had a mild winter and the snow is starting to melt. Generals Mud and Snow may work against Putin this time.

The whole of eastern and most of central Europe had a warmer winter than usual.
That's why the gas prices 'only' tripled.

[BruceVC]

23 minutes ago, Gorth said:

If you go into a diplomatic engagement and one part prepares detailed explanations and suggestions and the other part has a shopping list of threats and ultimatums which just got repeated over and over, completely unwilling to acknowledge that, their counterpart may actually have something to say, failed. Badly. Yes, she did fail rather badly (hence my remarks about her lack of ability). Dressing up as a Maggie Doll (which is what Zor was referring to) doesn't give her the respect Margaret Thatcher earned through a life of hard work and *skill*. Way to give Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson a run for their money... Feel free to watch all two hours of the conversation if you feel like it.

The way western leaders deal with the disagreement pretty much divides them up into two camps. Those who are "safe", with no scandals or looming elections/votes of no confidence ahead of them (Germany and France) and those who could very much use something to take peoples minds of such things (UK and USA). Boris Johnson might not even be around for the next election (being deposed by his own party) and Biden has an economy, that seems headed for a free fall, which wont help domestic social stability.

 

I would like to move on from us focusing on what clothes she is wearing because I dont think it has any relevance to why she met Lavrov and the valid and global criticism towards Russia and the possible invasion of Ukraine

Do you think Russia will be justified if it invades Ukraine based on what Putin is expecting from NATO and the West? In other words if NATO and the West dont agree to Putins demands that Ukraine cannot ever join NATO would that mean you will support the invasion of Ukraine?

Sometimes I am confused by your support of Russia so I just want to understand what you believe

And I hope you dont take this personally and or  get vexed about this discussion, this is just debate and we all have different views on this topic which is what  makes the art of debate interesting. Echo chambers are boring as I have always said 

 

[Gorth]

10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

I would like to move on from us focusing on what clothes she is wearing because I dont think it has any relevance to why she met Lavrov and the valid and global criticism towards Russia and the possible invasion of Ukraine

Do you think Russia will be justified if it invades Ukraine based on what Putin is expecting from NATO and the West? In other words if NATO and the West dont agree to Putins demands that Ukraine cannot ever join NATO would that mean you will support the invasion of Ukraine?

Sometimes I am confused by your support of Russia so I just want to understand what you believe

And I hope you dont take this personally and or  get vexed about this discussion, this is just debate and we all have different views on this topic which is what  makes the art of debate interesting. Echo chambers are boring as I have always said 

 

How about starting at the beginning? Chronologically? The Minsk Accord? The one that was supposed to guarantee the minority rights in eastern Ukraine and establish peace? (was one of those things Ms. Truss completely turned a deaf ear towards, peace is not interesting, only her ultimatums dictating what Russia can and can't do within it's borders). How about some constructive ideas that could've put Russia's mind at ease regarding western aggression (both militarily, economically and culturally)? Not worth mentioning at all, Russia has to move its troops elsewhere, where WE, the mighty UK are satisfied and they have to stay put there as long as we say... you get the gist.

I'm mostly very, very disappointed in the performance of western diplomacy, the UK in particular, sending probably the single most inept individual they had to do a grown up's work. For heavens sake, if they don't have any skilled politicians, send a professional, like a career diplomat as a representative. What happened was a woman completely out of depth wasting hours of everybody's time, and worse, proving to the Russians, that the UK has no interest in peace or diplomacy at all.

[BruceVC]

27 minutes ago, Gorth said:

How about starting at the beginning? Chronologically? The Minsk Accord? The one that was supposed to guarantee the minority rights in eastern Ukraine and establish peace? (was one of those things Ms. Truss completely turned a deaf ear towards, peace is not interesting, only her ultimatums dictating what Russia can and can't do within it's borders). How about some constructive ideas that could've put Russia's mind at ease regarding western aggression (both militarily, economically and culturally)? Not worth mentioning at all, Russia has to move its troops elsewhere, where WE, the mighty UK are satisfied and they have to stay put there as long as we say... you get the gist.

I'm mostly very, very disappointed in the performance of western diplomacy, the UK in particular, sending probably the single most inept individual they had to do a grown up's work. For heavens sake, if they don't have any skilled politicians, send a professional, like a career diplomat as a representative. What happened was a woman completely out of depth wasting hours of everybody's time, and worse, convincing the Russians that the UK has no interest in peace or diplomacy at all.

Fair enough but you still not   answering my question. Would you support the invasion of Ukraine by Russia if NATO and the West dont agree to Putins demands around Ukraine not ever  being allowed to join NATO?

 

 

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Fair enough but you still not   answering my question. Would you support the invasion of Ukraine by Russia if NATO and the West dont agree to Putins demands around Ukraine not ever  being allowed to join NATO?

 

 

Why would I do that? War is never a solution. It always creates more problems than it solves. Even if the problems don't pop up immediately.

 

Edit: How about asking me some easier questions, like do I like pain, do I like water in my whisky, do I think Scott Morrison is a great PM...?

Edit2: Doesn't mean I would hold Russia responsible for the conflict alone either. That is entirely on Russia + the UK and USA in equal measures, and in part Ukraine too for failing to action the points agreed in the Minsk Accords

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Why would I do that? War is never a solution. It always creates more problems than it solves. Even if the problems don't pop up immediately.

 

Edit: How about asking me some easier questions, like do I like pain, do I like water in my whisky, do I think Scott Morrison is a great PM...?

 

Whats your favorite strip club in Brisbane, do you drink Tequila and whats your favorite food....meaning American Barbeque or French   or Japanese or are you a traditionalist and nothing beats authentic Danish food like Karbonader or  Frikadeller ( I looked those up and they look yummy )

https://www.swedishnomad.com/danish-food/

 

 

 

 

[majestic]

This thread heavily begins to remind me of the time I was told that Saddam has the capacity to attack the United States with WMDs in a 45 minute timeframe, and if anyone was against military intervention in Iraq that it means you were okay with Saddam killing innocent Americans. By people who actually believed that stuff.

#imminentrussianinvasion Barbarian hordes at the gate, take care. #therussiansarecoming #thistimeforreal #noreallyreallyforrealthistime #saddamputinisthenewhitler

can we liek idk go back to beating kids, i can get behind easier!

Edited February 12, 2022 by majestic

[Gorth]

22 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Whats your favorite strip club in Brisbane, do you drink Tequila and whats your favorite food....meaning American Barbeque or French   or Japanese or are you a traditionalist and nothing beats authentic Danish food like Karbonader or  Frikadeller ( I looked those up and they look yummy )

https://www.swedishnomad.com/danish-food/

 

 

 

 

I don't know if I got such a thing as a favourite strip club in Brisbane... the only one I ever visited was on the Gold Coast (near Surfers Paradise). The lap dances are nice

https://www.hollywoodshowgirls.com.au/

As for food... hmm... Too many different ones to mention. Traditional Danish food is not amongst it. Indian Curry (Lababdar, Vindaloo), Tikka Masala, Thai Curry (Green and Yellow), Japanese food (various fish, seaweed, tofu, tsashimi, stuff with soy sauce and miso in it...), Chinese too sometimes, preferably a mix of all kinds of stuff in a communal Wok, like lotus roots and pig belly, roast duck with orange sauce... Good old dead cow on  the BBQ here in Australia... and oven baked salmon (being a personal favourite of mine)

 

Edit: Disclaimer, no idea if any of those dishes are "authentic" to the places I give credit for them...

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, majestic said:

This thread heavily begins to remind me of the time I was told that Saddam has the capacity to attack the United States with WMDs in a 45 minute timeframe, and if anyone was against military intervention in Iraq that it means you were okay with Saddam killing innocent Americans. By people who actually believed that stuff.

#imminentrussianinvasion Barbarian hordes at the gate, take care. #therussiansarecoming #thistimeforreal #noreallyreallyforrealthistime #saddamputinisthenewhitler

can we liek idk go back to beating kids, i can get behind easier!

Whataboutism when it comes to this Ukrainian issue is exactly what I would expect from someone who is in  denial to the reality of the facts.....like you know Russia has amassed 100k soldiers on the border and their is historical precedent with Russia invading several former Soviet states like Chechnya and Georgia and ....wait for it....actually annexing Crimea which use to be part of...wait for it again.....Ukraine 

So the suggestion that the legitimate elected government of Ukraine is " making up stuff " and " how could anyone believe that about Russia " must be one of the most irrelevant  things to say about this crisis 

But nice try 

 

[Darkpriest]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

Whataboutism when it comes to this Ukrainian issue is exactly what I would expect from someone who is in  denial to the reality of the facts.....like you know Russia has amassed 100k soldiers on the border and their is historical precedent with Russia invading several former Soviet states like Chechnya and Georgia and ....wait for it....actually annexing Crimea which use to be part of...wait for it again.....Ukraine 

So the suggestion that the legitimate elected government of Ukraine is " making up stuff " and " how could anyone believe that about Russia " must be one of the most irrelevant  things to say about this crisis 

But nice try 

 

I'd say that US has a vastly longer list of miliatry invasions and military interventions that resulted in mass civilian casualties. Even the last raid on the ISIS leader seems to have more and more info emerging, that it wasn't so clean and a lot of explosions happened, which killed civilians. 

Plus US admin has some really bad timing sense... Seriously, they've just grabbed and stole 7bn in assets from Afghan government, while people there are having issues with getting infrastructure backnin shape and are starving... 

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I'd say that US has a vastly longer list of miliatry invasions and military interventions that resulted in mass civilian casualties. Even the last raid on the ISIS leader seems to have more and more info emerging, that it wasn't so clean and a lot of explosions happened, which killed civilians. 

Plus US admin has some really bad timing sense... Seriously, they've just grabbed and stole 7bn in assets from Afghan government, while people there are having issues with getting infrastructure backnin shape and are starving... 

But we dont care about Afghanistan anymore since they sold us out to the Taliban 

Afghanistan is still sustained economically on foreign aid, anything from 80-90% of its revenue comes from foreign countries and the US probably spent 1 trillion dollars trying to rebuild the country and the US still financially supports Afghanistan so Im not sure what you mean 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/11/politics/us-humanitarian-assistance-afghanistan/index.html

[majestic]

16 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Whataboutism

[Gfted1]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

can we liek idk go back to beating kids, i can get behind easier!

Ok where did we leave off? Iirc, obesity is greatly influenced by poverty, which is directly caused by the machinations of fatcats. But whats missing 100% of the time is any form of personal accountability. Thats because there isnt any to be had, haha tricked you! The only solution is money...loot...Benjamins...cha-ching...cold hard cash. My proposal is to provide every single person with UBI, which the obese can then use to purchase and prepare nutritional meals instead of McDonalds. After centuries of living under the fatcats rule it high time we seize their wealth and redistribute it. Just imagine what the CEO of McD earned last year! IT. AINT. FAIR.

Honestly, is there anything that UBI wouldnt fix? I dont think so.

[Gromnir]

Texas counties reject unprecedented numbers of mail ballots ahead of March 1 primary under restrictive new law

In Harris County, the state’s most populous county and home to Houston, election officials said Friday that 40 percent of roughly 3,600 returned ballots so far have lacked the identification number required under Senate Bill 1, as the new law is known. In Williamson County, a populous northern suburb of Austin, the rejection rate has been about 25 percent in the first few days that ballots have come in, the top election official there said.

...

y'know, this kinda thing don't make us any more pro democrat, but it does make us more firm in our rejecting the current gop.

given current trends. texas going purple and then blue is not so much a question o' if but when, and on the day texas does go blue there is gonna be howling and wailing o' biblical proportions. for all the democrats who current rage over the manifest unfairness o' the electoral college and the fact a gop President may gain the Presidency with potential as little as 23% o' the popular vote, we advise patience, just a little bit o' patience. once texas does flip blue, the hated and despised electoral college, for all practical purposes, makes it impossible for a gop candidate to win the Presidency in any o' our lifetimes.

recommendation: if you are democrat, do self a favour and make sure to get ahead o' the change. be strategic and offer a few public displays o' electoral college approval. when the blue shift inevitable takes place, you will be able to undermine any suggestion o' hypocrisy. smile smug and offer feigned sympathy to your gop acquaintances who will no doubt be complaining 'bout how complete unfair is the electoral college.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

This thread heavily begins to remind me of the time I was told that Saddam has the capacity to attack the United States with WMDs in a 45 minute timeframe, and if anyone was against military intervention in Iraq that it means you were okay with Saddam killing innocent Americans. By people who actually believed that stuff.

Speaking of Afghanistan...

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/executive-order-afghanistan-9-11-humanitarian-aid/index.html

At this rate the US government will open a portal to a dimension of Eldritch Horror™ for fun by the end of the year.

[Darkpriest]

11 minutes ago, KP the Torque Dork said:

Speaking of Afghanistan...

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/executive-order-afghanistan-9-11-humanitarian-aid/index.html

At this rate the US government will open a portal to a dimension of Eldritch Horror™ for fun by the end of the year.

Thats what I meant, when telling @BruceVCthat US gov just stole 7bn from Afghanistan.

This gives more ammo for all the anti-US propaganda, showing them as international bully and thug who does as he pleases without care for others. 

This is stealing from Afghan people. They are not at war with Taliban, and they recognized them as legitimate gov, when started dealing diplomatically with them. I can understand freezing assets until some future event will bring stability there, but this is an outright pillage, like the case of Syrian oil field being pillaged with assistance of US army. Thats stealing other nations wealth. 

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Thats what I meant, when telling @BruceVCthat US gov just stole 7bn from Afghanistan.

This gives more ammo for all the anti-US propaganda, showing them as international bully and thug who does as he pleases without care for others. 

This is stealing from Afghan people. They are not at war with Taliban, and they recognized them as legitimate gov, when started dealing diplomatically with them. I can understand freezing assets until some future event will bring stability there, but this is an outright pillage, like the case of Syrian oil field being pillaged with assistance of US army. Thats stealing other nations wealth. 

No they not  looting 7bn, they only taking 3.5bn for 9/11 families and giving the rest to Afghanistan humanitarian  aid. From the article 

The funds, held in the US, were frozen following the collapse of the central government in Kabul in August. Half the remaining assets -- $3.5 billion -- will go toward providing relief inside the country, where fears of mass starvation have taken hold in the months since the Taliban took over.

The remaining $3.5 billion will be made available for terror victims, who have been fighting in court for compensation using the frozen funds. Their claims will still be litigated in court.

Its fair and reasonable considering the ongoing aid of hundreds of millions of dollars the US still provides 

Also remember the Taliban allowed AQ to commit 9/11 and now they  run Afghanistan. They can pay something to the 9/11 families 

[majestic]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Also remember the Taliban allowed AQ to commit 9/11 and now they  run Afghanistan. They can pay something to the 9/11 families 

*blink*

Wow.

You don't even see the irony, do you? I mean, really? Are you, of all people, suggesting that the current Taliban owe the families of their victims from 21 years ago something? I mean, the sentiment is fair in general, it's just really something coming from a middle aged, rich and very white banker from South Africa who repeatedly and very loudly proclaims he's sick and tired of being told he's a colonial beneficiary with loads of white priviledge.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 minutes ago, majestic said:

*blink*

Wow.

You don't even see the irony, do you? I mean, really? Are you, of all people, suggesting that the current Taliban owe the families of their victims from 21 years ago something? I mean, the sentiment is fair in general, it's just really something coming from a middle aged, rich and very white banker from South Africa who repeatedly and very loudly proclaims he's sick and tired of being told he's a colonial beneficiary with loads of white priviledge.

 

That's not a fair comparison, Afghanistan didn't actually contribute to the 9/11 attack.

[majestic]

Just now, KP the Torque Dork said:

That's not a fair comparison, Afghanistan didn't actually contribute to the 9/11 attack.

No, but the analogy works because I'm pretty sure BruceVC's retort will be that he didn't do anything himself. Which very well be true. But he still didn't stop it, did he?

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, majestic said:

*blink*

Wow.

You don't even see the irony, do you? I mean, really? Are you, of all people, suggesting that the current Taliban owe the families of their victims from 21 years ago something? I mean, the sentiment is fair in general, it's just really something coming from a middle aged, rich and very white banker from South Africa who repeatedly and very loudly proclaims he's sick and tired of being told he's a colonial beneficiary with loads of white priviledge.

 

Its disappointing when people mischaracterize you but it doesnt often happen so I cant say Im sick and tired of it because I dont get offended or really worry about it...but yes its disappointing. I dont want to attribute false emotion to how I feel 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Just now, majestic said:

No, but the analogy works because I'm pretty sure BruceVC's retort will be that he didn't do anything himself. Which very well be true. But he still didn't stop it, did he?

I don't know, while ol Bruce probably didn't personally enforce colonialism he certainly benefitted from it in a way that Afghanistan of Afghans did not benefit from an attack launched by a Saudi national's organization. 

Inb4 the invasion and occupation was actually good for Afghanistan.

[Gfted1]

That made me go down a rabbit hole and look up German restitution: Germany and Israel: Bilateral relations - Federal Foreign Office (auswaertiges-amt.de)

So far, Germany has paid more than 74 billion euros in reparations, including approximately 29 billion that have been paid to victims of Nazi persecution living in Israel.

Daaaaamn! Is that still part of the Luxembourg Agreement?

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, KP the Torque Dork said:

I don't know, while ol Bruce probably didn't personally enforce colonialism he certainly benefitted from it in a way that Afghanistan of Afghans did not benefit from an attack launched by a Saudi national's organization. 

Inb4 the invasion and occupation was actually good for Afghanistan.

Of course the invasion was better than life under the old Taliban unless you think women not being educated is a good thing?