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Hylea's talon and Avenging Storm are "weapon's features" ; an attack with effort proc one lightning et potentially a wound. Effort can be upgraded with Hemorrhaging, that hobbled or Sicken the target on crit. Hemorrhaging can crit, it is against fortitude.

Effort's Hemorrhaging work on any crit, from spells, weapons's abilities, chants... and the effect is a weapon's attack. I dont know for hylea's talon, but Avenging Storm's lightning can crit. 

SC druid become a monster with Effort:

Wicked Briar, Retentless Storm and Nature Terror can crit twice per 3s (for each effect the spell have), Venombloom 3times per 3s, each crit proc Hemorrhaging, that proc 1 lightning from Avenging Storm, so 1 inspiration from Least Unstable Coil , and potentially one wound. Hemmorhaging and the lightning can both crit, that mean chain-lighning. 

 

With scroll of Avenging Storm, Chanter can transform their chants into lightning tempest too, cipher can turn big AoE spells like Phantom Foes on damage, and Beams into potential Per 1s Chain-Lighning.

Beguiler are truly monsters with high arcana and +20 acc (Borrowed instincts) +10 (Helm of the White Void) +10 (the Empty soul), a Soul Echo and Shared Nightmare for SC etc.

 

Others casters can be also Efforted, but cipher and chanter have  infinites ressources, that is why I speak about in particular. 

The Mage Slayer 's Spell Disruption is also applied on every crit, the Hemorrhaging form effort is a melee attack :) 

Edited by Constentin Lévine
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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Very nice :). What about adding a Barbarian for the automatic Stagger rolls with Spirit Frenzy? That should feed into the proc chain too right?

Yes since stagger can crit

48 minutes ago, thelee said:

i'm not sure i'm completely following - what does Effort do in these situations? Does it just provide an additional (on-crit only) effect that can trigger an Avenging Storm bolt?

Absolutely, and that transform everything that crit in melee attack. Abilities from gloves trigger also, or the Mage Slayer Spell Disruption (at the coast of the scroll of Avenging Storm). A mage Slayer Caster is amazing as capricious child who dont want anyone else can cast spell except himself :)  

Edited by Constentin Lévine
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Ahem

And what about Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming ?

I dont know, there is nothing in the combat log. Only a list of "blank" hit and crit from Hemorraging, 

edit : I tried something that should be similar, the CP extra 's Backstab (20 raw damage on weapon hit when stealth), and the Hemorraging dont proc the flat damage. The effect itself is not threated as weapon, but it come from a weapon, the difference is subtile :)

Edited by Constentin Lévine
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So let me get this straight:

Hemorrhaging is not only applied to the weapon attack of Effort but to all attack rolls while carrying that weapon (compareable to Engoliero dE's Blade Feast for example)?

Damn! I always preferred Maiming over Hemorrhaging - because hobbled/sicken on crit seemed strictly inferior to additional bleeding dmg. Who could've known that Hemorrhaging does proc off of all attack rolls? 🤯

Self-proccing Avenging Storm crit chains indeed!

Swift Flurry: I don't think so because usually all those weapon procs do count as weapon attacks but not melee weapon attacks. But on the other hand Hylea's Talons do work which implies Hemorrhaging does count as melee weapon attack. Think about Enervating Blows, Interrupting Blows, Gatecrashers and yes... maybe even Swift Flurry... : 🤔

Truly wild!

Also wild that nobody noticed before. I guess everybody was just thinking "meh hobbled on crit lol"... ;)

 

Edited by Boeroer
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21 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Also wild that nobody noticed before. I guess everybody was just thinking "meh hobbled on crit lol"... ;)

I feel silly because I did a lot of testing with Hemorrhaging when I was testing stuff with Helm of the White Void... but it didn't occurred to me that it would proc with anything other than weapon attack! :) 

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Wow, this would definitely be better than LDV for SC druid. Thanks for this excellent observation! A SC Fury with effort would be amazing. One thing that I am not clear about....is it beneficial to also wield Hylea's Talons when using Effort in this manner?

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Yes, because apparently the hobbled/sicken proc counts as melee weapon attacks so the DoT of Hylea's Talons will get applied, too (not the lashes though I presume, since the sicken/hobble is not an attack roll with a damage component).

This is not only great for Druids but for Stormspeakers, too (Avenging Storm as invocation at PL 8). 

Edited by Boeroer

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8 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Wow, this would definitely be better than LDV for SC druid. Thanks for this excellent observation! A SC Fury with effort would be amazing. One thing that I am not clear about....is it beneficial to also wield Hylea's Talons when using Effort in this manner?

Not for Fury Druid since they loose the access to healing spells (wounds on yourself) ; but that work on every gloves that work usually with melee hits or crits.

That work also with bombs or scrolls, like Binding Web, and stack resonnances for SC Monk very quickly. Sadly in my test I didnt have the time to active the Resonnant Touch because everyone died because of Chain-Lighning before.

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Ha, they die so fast there's no time for further testing! Thanks for the additional explanations. Yes, this would be great for Stormspeakers too. But maybe Fury would be a too fragile a druid subclass for this build, unless you pump up RES high to minimize the wound ticks.

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15 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Ha, they die so fast there's no time for further testing! Thanks for the additional explanations. Yes, this would be great for Stormspeakers too. But maybe Fury would be a too fragile a druid subclass for this build, unless you pump up RES high to minimize the wound ticks.

Or just equipping Boltcatcher insteed of Hylea's talon, then you dont risk your life each time the spells pulse! 

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4 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Absolutely, and that transform everything that crit in melee attack.

Sorry I just need to double-clarify this, I think it might be a slight language issue.

Based on what Boeroer says, do you mean "transforms everything that crit into a melee attack?"

So, if I have Effort and enchant with Hemmoraging, if I crit with Dancing Bolts spell, those Dancing Bolt crits will also trigger Hemmoraging, which will then trigger Avenging Storm bolts?

Just want to make sure I got this right, because if so, this sounds potentially crazy.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thelee said:

Just want to make sure I got this right, because if so, this sounds potentially crazy.

It is : the crit from spell (some spells have many rolls so many crit per attack) inflict Hemmorhaging to the target, and it is a melee attack. That proc one lightning from Avenging Storm, that can also crit. Hemmorhaging itself can proc itself when it crit. Each crit proc a new lightning, that can crit, and etc.

Each Hemmorhaging hit have 20%chance to interrupt with Babyboar pet, the chain-crit while enregized stun-lock the target during a short time.

Blood or Spirit frenzy from the Crimson Panoplie (for exemple) applie their status for each hit or crit(for Blood Frenzy), adding a new layer of potential crit for each crit.

Gloves like Boltercatch add a new 20% potential crit on crit.

Ect..

 

I suspect the Ajamuut cloak to potentially stun from Arkemyr Brilliant Departure with CC spells (without Avenging Storm) with Hemmorhaging. I will try also the Mask of the Grotto deep. That doesnt work from Shadowing Beyond because the first roll is made from the spell, and clear the invisibility. 

 

And, yes, into melee attack, my english isn't good..

Edited by Constentin Lévine
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Posted (edited)

A Trickster with Effort, Mask of the Grotto Deep, Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak, Ring of Clenched Muscle, Scroll of Avenging Storm, Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage and Vanishing Strike :

lightning.png.f35a97957afdecd45807581eee8198d0.png

I captured the screen env. 1 or 2 sec after attacking with Vanishing Strike.

 

Without the Mask of the Grotto Deep and Avenging Storm but only Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak and Effort, a Wizard can Stun as long he stay under the effect of Arkemyr's Brilliant departure an enemy that was before prepared by Entropy, with an unique CC spell. It is really funny :)

Edited by Constentin Lévine
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4 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

And, yes, into melee attack, my english isn't good..

no worries, my non-english skills are terrible. take it as a complement - the interaction you found with hemorrhaging seems so potentially zany, that i had a real hard time believing it at first, at least the way i was beginning to understand it

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I'm thinking about the "legitimity" of the find : because this is not an isolated case, since there are at less also Cruel Blade, Blade Feast (Engoliero do Espirs), Rock Blunt (Sungrazer) and Breath of Life (Twin Eels) that work on spells, it seems that is not a mistake from developpers (we are at version 5.0). Excepted this ones are not melee :)

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I'm pretty sure they are all oversights. Designers put a lot of Effort (pun intended) into balancing the game - and those things are obscure and do break the balance. Look at Chilling Grave proccing Avenging Storm, generating focus and such wild stuff.

The other cases are just not as savage in their effect as Hemorrhaging is - when explored properly. Engoliero's Blade Feast and Twin Eels' heal only work on kill - which is much harder to stack and chain as crits - and they can't go into a self-feeding loop.

They don't lead to chain-reactions. Thus they maybe didn't really push devs to fixing them in the past but were just left in the game - because other stuff was more pressing until the patch cycle ended.

Also those other cases don't count as "melee" weapon attacks but just as spell-like weapon attacks as you said. That even puts a fat cherry on top of Hemorrhaging. It's oversight-ception. Leonardo DiCaprio putting an oversight into an oversight while devs were dozing a bit. ;)

I think this is the most gamebreaking "unintendedness" we've ever seen (besides Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson trick and Grimoire Imprint exploit maybe). 

Really cool stuff - but way too good and way too gamebreaking to be fun to play for a longer time, at least for me in a party. Maybe cool for a cheeky solo run or for loling at devs while doing the Ultimate Challenge. 😄

 

 

Edited by Boeroer
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I did some tests some time ago with Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak and Lover's Embrace to see which invisibility implementation (Shadowing Beyond Skean, Shadowing Beyond Rogue, Smoke Veil, Brilliant Departures, Vanishing Strikes, WotW and so on) works with several items. I thought Brilliant Departure didn't trigger the stun from the Stalking Cloak - but maybe I just accidentally skipped the combination of Brilliant Departure, melee weapon and Stalking Cloak. 🤔

If so: cool to know now. 😄

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I did some tests some time ago with Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak and Lover's Embrace to see which invisibility implementation (Shadowing Beyond Skean, Shadowing Beyond Rogue, Smoke Veil, Brilliant Departures, Vanishing Strikes, WotW and so on) works with several items. I thought Brilliant Departure didn't trigger the stun from the Stalking Cloak - but maybe I just accidentally skipped the combination of Brilliant Departure, melee weapon and Stalking Cloak. 🤔

If so: cool to know now. 😄

Brilliant departure does apply the stun effect, but only when no damage are dealed (including DoT). This is like I wrote : as long the invisibility stay, the target is stunned with only the casting of 1 CC spell (when the ennemy is under the effect of Entropy)! 

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I think this is the most gamebreaking "unintendedness" we've ever seen (besides Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson trick and Grimoire Imprint exploit maybe). 

I agree, maybe in that order:

  1. SoF/Cabalist Gambeson because all you need is to grab on of these items (very easy/no fight required) and get to the point where you have Vanishing Strike or Temporal Cocoon then you've basically won the game. (cherry on the cheesecake: Deltro's helm for a 100000% lash)
  2. Effort + Avenging Storm trick because it is incredibly and hilariously powerful but you need to grab Effort (not a walk in the park).
  3. Grimoire Imprint, I personally love this and it can lead to hilarious combos, but it's much more effective and convenient with hirelings (while the other 2 tricks are as effective fully solo, except the Deltro ping-pong lash trick).

Now of course, you could also use all 3 tricks at the same time, make a little video and maybe pin it at the top of the Obsidian Board, share with the Dev and title it:

Deadfire: a definitive guide to how developers intended that you play the game. :) 

Edited by Not So Clever Hound
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8 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

 guide to how developers intended that you play the game. :) 

<picture of a moon dropping on an archipelago>

You know what? With all that stuff we SHOULD be able to fight Eothas and win. Time for one last DLC "Obscured Oversight"...

Edited by Boeroer
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