Are Wizards useless in Turn based mode?

[Destinyblade]

I started POE II a few days ago and I am overall enjoying it a lot, since it feels like a step up from Pillars I in nearly every way. I decided to start with turn based mode because I prefer that gameplay style to RTWP general.

I don't understand wizards in turn based mode though. Maybe I'm playing them wrong but the spell cast time in turn based is a very bizarre choice. I have only one spell which casts instantly. Everything else takes an entire 'round'(I'm not sure what it's called) to cast. It more or less takes 2 entire rounds to cast nearly any of the spells I have. What is so useful about spells that it justifies having such a long time to cast? Is the utility/damage output of one fireball or poison cloud so much that a wizard basically has half the speed of everyone else.

If I have a fighter and I use the knock down ability. It just works and now the opponent loses a turn, which in turn-based tends to be very useful. Contrast that with a wizard casting say, jolting touch or crackling bolt since jolting touch is close range only, I have to wait a round where the wizard can be attacked, knocked down or interrupted the later of which resets the entire thing. What is there about wizards or even to a lesser extent Ciphers and Priests that make their higher spells worth doing nothing for at least one round, and possibly nothing for two rounds

Edited November 19, 2021 by Destinyblade

[Boeroer]

I don't play TB mode (only RTwP) so my expertise is somewhat theoretical only - but I see that you are comparing a "useful" CC effect (Knock Down) with some of the weaker damaging spells which feel "useless".

You could try a a spell like Slicken instead (does the same as Knock Down - but in an area of effect) and check if that's more to your liking. 

I also think casting from stealth at least eliminates the long casting time for that first spell. If you open with a string hard CC/disabling spell from stealth and catch all enemies this can turn the fight so much in your favor that you'll win easily.

Low level Wizard spells that are very good in RTwP mode are:
Slicken, Chillfog, Miasma of Dull-Mindedness, Combusting Wounds, Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage, Expose Vulnerabilities...
Maybe they are nice in TB mode, too...? 

All the self buffs are instant casts and should also be in TB mode. They are quite strong in RTwP so I assume they asre not too bad no TB Mode either.

Damaging spells need enough Penetration to be worthwhile. If you cast some damaging spell like Fireball on enemies that have high(ish) burn armor then the damage will be puny.
  

Besides that I think @Haplokplayed a lot of Wizard stuff in Turn Based Mode, maybe he has some insights and tipps.

 

[Carys]

In turn based mode, every spell has a cast time that is noted in the spell writeup.  That's how long that it takes to cast.  So, if a wizard had an initiative of 9, as an example, and cast a spell with a cast time of 4, it resolves on 13.  That is likely something you already know.

Now, there is no upper cap for a round's times.  The round ends when the slowest person finishes.  So, if the wizard above goes at 9, and all the other party members have gone, and the last enemy goes at 11, the spell will resolve at 2 the next round.  This is something the player can track on the initiative list that is provided.  You will see exactly when the spell resolves. But, in many cases, the wizard in this example will get to act again in that same round.  Here's why.

In a typical D&D type game, initiative is rolled every round.  In Pillars it is not.  It is random on the first round, but after that it is based on three things: armor, the action taken, and the characters Dexterity adjustment.  While Dexterity does not have the impact it does in RTwP, it still does play in.  A lightly armored character with fast attacks - a dagger rogue for instance - will always be neat the top of the turn order.  A low dex, high armored character tends to be low, which can be great for a priest since heal spells tend to be instant or fast cast, so an end of round heal lets you send it where you need it.

With a melee character, the game resolves the attack, does the 'when does the person go next' calculation, and sets it up for the next round.  For a caster, that is done when spell resolution happens, but, as the character does not have an action /in the current round/, if that 'when do I go next' comes up before the end point of the current round, they get an action in that round.

As an example, I've had many times where Xoti has had a low round 1 init and gone last, cast a CT1 heal which goes off at 1 in round 2, and she gets another action at 3ish in round 2.  The only time that you would miss a whole round is if the caster goes close to last and casts a long cast time spell when the party and the enemy are all very fast.  It should not happen often.

As for knockdown, it might look nice, but is much more effective in RTwP.  In TB, it basically does nothing on it's own.  It doesn't change init, it doesn't cost an action to get up.  It doesn't take away an attack.  Sometimes, if you knockback with knockdown, and then move away, it might take a guy his round to get back into melee range, and it can interrupt a cast of course.

As far as spells being worth it?  Yes.  Spells are always powerful, it just takes some practice with them in TB to adjust to the way Pillars works in TB.

 

[Destinyblade]

Crowd Control as a Wizard in RTWP(in POE I) was very useful but in turn-based it rarely works. I am unironically making more use of my Wizard by just having him fire off from his sceptre. Crackling Bolt is technically a CC spell albeit one which goes in one direction. Most of the CC spells also seem to take two rounds. For example there's one that puts a poison cloud(can't remember the name). I cast that and by the time it's in effect most of the enemies have moved out so it's not really controlling a crowd, is it?

I'll try out the other spells you stated though. Thanks for that

Combusting wounds is nice when the enemies are still in the circle by the time the second turn comes up. Haven't tried any of the buffs spells yet

I alrteady tried casting from stealth and it did not remove that need. I check armor and immunities so that's not an issue

[Carys]

Also, as Boeroer said, many wizard buffs are swift actions in TB, and there is no limit to swift actions.  That means you can cast /every/ wizard buff you have in round one, and with no cooldown, cast another spell normally right after.  For a melee caster, that is really powerful, as you don't have the RTwP recovery between them.

[Destinyblade]

my replies need to be approved by a moderator so it seems this will take a while for other people to see but some things I want to say. Some extra information: For the Wizard I'm using Aloth with no subclass or multiclass

1) Why is initiative called initiative if the more % of it you have the lower you are in a round's order? English is my second language so maybe I'm missing something but that feels weird to me?

2) Wouldn't a Melee caster be even slower than a normal one since, I assume, you need armor which brings up intitiative

3) My spells resolve way down at the end always. If I look in the top right they show up on the list after a few more characters have had their turn not instanty. When the spell is about to be cast it just doesn't show up

4) How can I reduce initiative? other than not wearing any armor I guess

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Destinyblade said:

Crackling Bolt is technically a CC spell albeit one which goes in one direction.

uh, perhaps we're mixing up our words here, but crackling bolt is not a CC spell. It may be an "area of effect" (aoe) spell, but typically when people say "crowd control" they mean "things that disable or weaken the enemy, instead of primarily doing damage."

slicken is CC effect (and extremely effective), crackling bolt is not. i just want to make sure you're understanding e.g. @Boeroer's advice correctly.

 

3 hours ago, Destinyblade said:

Combusting wounds is nice when the enemies are still in the circle by the time the second turn comes up. Haven't tried any of the buffs spells yet

In RTwP you can re-aim spells that are in progress of being cast, which is a necessary feature of how the game balances out spells with slow cast times. Is there no equivalent feature in TB mode?

[Destinyblade]

33 minutes ago, thelee said:

uh, perhaps we're mixing up our words here, but crackling bolt is not a CC spell. It may be an "area of effect" (aoe) spell, but typically when people say "crowd control" they mean "things that disable or weaken the enemy, instead of primarily doing damage."

Doesn't cracking bolt have a chance of shock enemies? Or does shocking not count as CC? I haven't played a lot of RPGS like this so I could be getting terms wrong

 

Quote

In RTwP you can re-aim spells that are in progress of being cast, which is a necessary feature of how the game balances out spells with slow cast times. Is there no equivalent feature in TB mode?

I don't see that option? I paused the game once when I saw that a spell was about to be cast and there was no one in the range and I couldn't see an option for that anywhere. Was that an option in POE I too?

[Carys]

Re-aiming was removed during the development, though there is a mod that puts it back.  I don't use that mod, I've never seen the need for it, but that could just be me.

[NotDumbEnough]

Having played Deadfire first, I found wizards unbearable in the first game. I hated having to actually aim my spells, e.g. leading the target. 

 

There's no CC called "shocking" by the way. Rolling Flame prones like Knock Down, and certain spells may stun or paralyze. Many spells interrupt on crit.

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Destinyblade said:

Doesn't cracking bolt have a chance of shock enemies? Or does shocking not count as CC?

double-check the description. it does "shock" damage, but that's it. it's a type of damage, it's not a debuff that would count as CC.

CC are things like:

1. an affliction
2. knock down, knockup, interrupt (kinda, i don't always count these as CC)
3. direct stat penalties (like miasma of dull-mindedness or nature's mark)

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Carys said:

Re-aiming was removed during the development, though there is a mod that puts it back.  I don't use that mod, I've never seen the need for it, but that could just be me.

so to confirm some TB ideas i'd seen before, does it make sense to make sure your casters always go last, then? that way you don't have to worry about enemies running out of area of effects

[Boeroer]

Some TB players here said that this is excactly what they do: make their casters go last. 

[Haplok]

Exactly. Two advantages: accurate aoe aiming (can't retarget in Turn  Based) and can't be interrupted 

Frankly, I never really noticed my spells rolling over to the next round with any regularity. I mean it maybe happened a few times, but definately not often. And my Dex wasn't even particularly good. Perhaps you get interrupted too much or a similar effect is happening to delay your action?

 

My experience is quite opposite to the OPs. Turn Based mode is paradise for wizards (and other casters too, to a lesser degree - wizards rule due to all the Free Action buffs they get). When you only get 1 action every round, a huge aoe spell with large impact will have WAY better action economy then 1 sword swing...

Even better if you're a Spellblade and only exit Stealth once your spell resolves (while enjoying +25 Accuracy, +4 Pen, +50% Crit damage)...

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Haplok

[Destinyblade]

Thanks for all of the advice, I'll see how it goes now. I do think part of my problem is just finding the idea of of waiting to cast in turn based a bit bizarre