Lowering enemies' Will by 30 points with a Morning Star

[Boeroer]

Hello,

just a quick discovery I made 5 minutes ago: if you use The Willbreaker with a Wizard and also with the Wizard's phantom you can not only stack 5 instances of "Relentless" (-3 Will per hit) on enemies but actually 2x5 stacks - which results in -30 Will (alongside -25 Fortitude if you use Body Blows of course).*

This works really well in combination with Caedebald's Blackbow (I mean if a second Wizard uses it) since it targets Fortitude (weapon dmg) and Will (terrify). The Helm of the White Void applies its bonus to both rolls. In combination with the double Willbreaker dude it's really hard to mess up the Blackbow's shots...  
 

)* the Willbreaker also can apply shaken with "Oppressive Fear" which would lower Will even further (-10, stacks with Relentless). Bewildering Blows (-25 Will) also stack with those. Aaand even further down with Miasma...

Edited October 29, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

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[Boeroer]

röfl

This enemy had 44 Will to start with...

[dgray62]

Great find! Sounds like a great reason to add a warlock and an SC wizard to a party.

[Not So Clever Hound]

For a true win-more crit-fest, add a Sage with Draining Touch, Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming.  

EDIT: I think that Entrancing Aroma and Hunter of Hunters would also stack for another -18 WILL / -10 FORT.

EDIT 2: it would be a really cool way to dispose of enemies if lowering stats below 0 could instakill them like in AD&D IIRC.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

Keeper of the Flame and Ngati's Touch would be great additions, yes. I also tested if those auras will stack when you put them on a phantom, but they will not.

Still great because both auras do no hit rolls but the effects just get applied to enemies. 

I had a party with a Draining Touch/Kapana Taga Sage, a Ngati's Tusk Howler and a Willbreaker Brute not too long ago. Didn't have Keeper of the Flame - but should have. Maybe with Endre's Flog of Obedience on an SC Stalker (Whirling Strikes = AoE Reflex debuff)? 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Great find! Sounds like a great reason to add a warlock and an SC wizard to a party.

Indeed. I was just discovering this while I tried to build around the bow and figure out some ways to make an SC Wiz bow user more effective.

Because during one of my latest playthroughs I found myself using Caedebald's Blackbow (+Phantom) all the time in the late game because it was just more impactful during the longer fights (esp. SSS). With decent INT and attack speed you can perma-terrify up to four enemies. And also with Ring of the Marksman and Spirit of Decay the PEN is pretty, good, too. 

By the way: without any consumables and party support the Test-SC-Wizard reached 140+ ACC (with normal PER) with the Blackbow. The Phantom 120. Combined with the debuffs it's effective enough for most encounters. Also because you can add another 10 with Devotions.

A bit bummed that there is no more Coordinated Attacks for Paladins anymore...

 

[Not So Clever Hound]

53 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: without any consumables and party support the Test-SC-Wizard reached 140+ ACC (with normal PER) with the Blackbow. The Phantom 120. Combined with the debuffs it's effective enough for most encounters. Also because you can add another 10 with Devotions.

I wonder if you could use (and extend) the Wild Shot ability from Kitchen Stove (attacks bounce +1 time) to make Caedbald's even more effective? My very quick testing of Wild Shot a couple days ago wasn't very conclusive. You can definitely prolong with SoF etc but I struggled to see the add'l bounce work consistently.

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Didn't have Keeper of the Flame - but should have. Maybe with Endre's Flog of Obedience on an SC Stalker (Whirling Strikes = AoE Reflex debuff)? 

That sounds great, the weapon is definitely on theme and SC Stalker + modal would add dmg and a nice debuff to the party. Given the crazy Will debuffing, I struggle to not see a SC Cipher with echoing horror, the empty soul, soul echo etc. but it's less impactful to this party b/c they don't need Brilliant as much.

[Boeroer]

54 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I wonder if you could use (and extend) the Wild Shot ability from Kitchen Stove (attacks bounce +1 time) to make Caedbald's even more effective? My very quick testing of Wild Shot a couple days ago wasn't very conclusive. You can definitely prolong with SoF etc but I struggled to see the add'l bounce work consistently.

Once you switch the weapon Wild Shot will stop working.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Given the crazy Will debuffing, I struggle to not see a SC Cipher with echoing horror, the empty soul, soul echo etc. but it's less impactful to this party b/c they don't need Brilliant as much.

Yes - I thought about a Forbidden Fist/Beguiler who could make great use of both the Fortitude and Will debuff. Applying enfeebled, having +10 INT, Lingering Echoes and then casting Puppet Master will give you dominated ads for a very long time, especially if a crit is almost guaranteed because of the superlow Will defense. 

Or more simple: I recently had a SC Psion on the party and at some point (not too high a level) my focus was flowing in so quickly that I could spam Puppet Master nonstop. She didn't do anything else usually. The duration wasn't as long as you would have with a FF/Cipher, but it was superstraightforward and the action economy was great - as well as the ability to easily script the AI for that character. So simple yet so effective. She usually could keep every normal enemy in the fight dominated (except one who got attacked by everybody else). Now with a FF/Cipher you would need more setup and micromanagement but you would also be a lot more versatile I guess.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

if you use The Willbreaker with a Wizard and also with the Wizard's phantom you can not only stack 5 instances of "Relentless" (-3 Will per hit) on enemies but actually 2x5 stacks - which results in -30 Will (alongside -25 Fortitude if you use Body Blows of course).*

Didn't realize it will stack further than 5 x-3 

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I see Ngati's Tusk was already mentioned. It's great with phantom even just standing there, while wizard himself can switch to Willbreaker.

(because two Hunter of Hunters auras don't stack)

---

And there is also Shining Beacon for extra -10 to all defenses.

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I recently had a SC Psion on the party and at some point (not too high a level) my focus was flowing in so quickly that I could spam Puppet Master nonstop. She didn't do anything else usually.

I've read about your fun experiences with Scion SC/MC as well as others' and I really need to play with this class more.

One question I had since you mentioned it: can you lower or even remove the "6 sec disable of focus generation on being hit" with high RES and/or % negative effect duration modifiers? Otherwise I'll look into it, just wondering if you already have the answer.  

[Boeroer]

14 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

One question I had since you mentioned it: can you lower or even remove the "6 sec disable of focus generation on being hit" with high RES and/or % negative effect duration modifiers? Otherwise I'll look into it, just wondering if you already have the answer.  

I didn't try/test that. I'm using the Community Patch which alters this rule so that only critical hits will stop the focus generation. Combined with a tanky setup and keeping out of melee (weapon & shield, hatchet + small shield, good RES) I never even noticed that my focus generation stopped. With the same defensive setup I guess also a non-modded Psion would have no problems. Since I was casting Whisper of Treason first and then Puppet Master non-stop the defensive weapon set didn't pull me down (no need for weapon attacks). And I could drop MIG which made room for high INT, DEX and PER. It's good to have an alternative power once you meet enemies who are immune to mind afflictions. Like Mental Binding for example. 

[Boeroer]

25 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

And there is also Shining Beacon for extra -10 to all defenses.

Yes, that's also cool. Or hot...

I prefer Ben Fidel's Neck though with the Howler who's already carrying Ngati's Tusk and chants Long Night's Drink + Spirit Frenzy. That all does take no action time so he can use his phrases for Ben Fidel's Neck to apply frightened and lower enemies' defenses by 10 as well without using a precious Priest spell slot which I need for my Devotions. Shining Beacon and Ben Fidel's Neck unfortunately do not stack with each other. 

 

[MaxQuest]

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I'm using the Community Patch which alters this rule so that only critical hits will stop the focus generation. Combined with a tanky setup and keeping out of melee (weapon & shield, hatchet + small shield, good RES) I never even noticed that my focus generation stopped. 

Btw, how does psion's focus generation feels to you?

Strong, underwhelming, cheesy, slow, or in the right spot?

[Boeroer]

On 10/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, MaxQuest said:

Btw, how does psion's focus generation feels to you?

Strong, underwhelming, cheesy, slow, or in the right spot?

I was sceptic when the Psion was released because I thought the focus generation was too slow (didn't realize it scales with Power Level back then). Now - at least with the Community Patch - it honestly felt too strong, haha. I only ran out of focus when I cast Time Siphon on 4+ enemies - because then my action speed was so high that I could spam Puppet Master more quickly than focus came in. Of course I could have spammed more costly powers - but this apporach was so effective that I hardly did anything else. As Multiclass (for example Psion/Troubadour) you can even alternate between resources which would lead to even more focus to use (also did that some while ago).

I don't know if the original mechanic would have felt any different though. A defensively skilled "ranged" character who dominates everything that comes too near (and then the rest) hardly takes any damage in the first place.  

I wouldn't say cheesy. The CP solution is maybe just a bit too good - at least with my latest character configuration.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I didn't try/test that.

Sadly, RES and things like Strand of Favor do not have any impact on the 6sec focus gen. interruption which seems incompressible. I'm also using the Community Patch.

At max level with Prestige and another source of +1PL a SC Scion can generate 6 focus per second, more of course with Brilliant. At this point focus generates very, very fast, you always have a lot of it and you can pretty much spam Ring Leader and/or Amplified Wave. It doesn't feel cheesy OP though. Certainly not on the level of, say, an SC Ascendant using Thunderous Report, with Ancestor's Memory and Time Parasite + any Priest with Salvation of Time and Barring Death Door, etc etc. 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

I can get it to 7 focus per sec if I use the Lance of the Midwood Stag (and a druid for Woodskin or Form of the Delemgan) and Stone of Power. But it's not really necessary since (as you said): generates very fast anyway.  So I chose a shield setup. 

[Boeroer]

Ehehehe:


Too bad "Living Illusions" only works 1/rest.

This stacking with phantoms works with all stackable effects on enemies by the way. Ball and Chain's "Crushing Yoke", Blade of the Endless Path's "Marking" and so on. Saru Sichr's stackable DoT, too of course. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Henlo it is I, the Rotghast with the negative deflection:
 

[MaxQuest]

Thank you for feedback guys

One thing is theory-crafting, and another actually playing through)

In theory getting 6 focus per second is not much. It would take 37s to get to 220 focus; and Ascendant can be faster than that. But Psion generates focus even when casting or idling; which is doubly effective when multi-classed with another caster.

And he can do that without investing much in MIG and DEX.

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I don't know if the original mechanic would have felt any different though. A defensively skilled "ranged" character who dominates everything that comes too near (and then the rest) hardly takes any damage in the first place.  

For a ranged psion there is indeed no much difference. For a melee though...

I wonder if it's worth increasing the length of focus generation pause a little bit (on getting crit) 

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19 stacks of Relentless feels a bit too much to me)

[Elric Galad]

On 10/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, MaxQuest said:

Btw, how does psion's focus generation feels to you?

Strong, underwhelming, cheesy, slow, or in the right spot?

I'm using a CP Psion right now and the focus generation feels overall... a little too unchallenging. I'm playing with a Wael priest MC and I rarely even have to use my priest powers (but Minor Avatar/Mirror Images help avoiding crit even more...)

It worths noticing that Psion has been used to complete the Ultimate, so the original class is certainly not unplayable or bad. That said, at this level of play, you can excpect players to find ways to basically get never damaged. With or without CP change, it might not have been a big difference.

There are tons of way to tweak Psion focus stop : setting it to Weapon attacks only, setting it to Hit or Crit only (excluding Grazes), etc...
Why not Hit or Crit from weapons only ?

The original design feels maybe a bit too punishing for non-expert player while CP current one feels a tad too simple to use. Probably there could be a good middle ground to find.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

But Psion generates focus even when casting or idling

This underlined part is exactly what I didn't really grasp until I played my first Psion for a longer time: that Soul Mind even generates focus while you are spending it. Some powers take some time to cast. The longer the casting time for a normal Cipher the worse. For a Psion it's no problem because focus is just flowing in. I totally underestimated how big of an advantage this is. As I said: as long as my casting speed isn't too high I cannot spend the focus fast enough even as an SC Psion (if not using high Power Level spells all the time).

 

 

[dgray62]

So I guess that there's no need to take time parasite for a SC psion, right? I've only played psion MCed as a spiritualist. I think I might try a SC psion.

[Boeroer]

Yes, I think Time Parasite isn't as good for a SC Psion as it is for other cipher subclasses. I mean if you want to cast mainly and not use your weapon too much.

Maybe it would be better if one focuses on the low level stuff (for example Soul Shock or so) because I think even with Time Parasite you will be able to gain focus faste than you can spend it with those cheap spells.