What’s the point in have a tank in this game?

[freddfranca]

After try some party runs, I am still having issues with tanking.

I can’t see the point in a system where there’s no aggro, no taunts, sometimes the enemies just target some of the weaker of my group and there’s nothing I can do. 

Another thing that I can’t understand is the terrible engagement system. Sometimes if I try to reposition myself, I trigger a disengagement attack. If one of my backline caster is being attacked, I can’t do nothing to escape. Sometimes my tank is engaged with one enemy, and the same enemy is attacking another melee from my group.

[thelee]

41 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

Another thing that I can’t understand is the terrible engagement system. Sometimes if I try to reposition myself, I trigger a disengagement attack. If one of my backline caster is being attacked, I can’t do nothing to escape.

this right here is kind of answering your own question. if your backline caster is being attacked, then a tank is not doing their job somewhere. make sure you actually have enough engagement. it seems like you get the gist of it, but just to reiterate: most characters don't have engagement by default and a shield is the main way. some of the real "tank"-type classes have additional ways to get more engagement (barb, fighter), and a few casters have abilities that grant more engagement. generally one engagement per melee is not enough i find to keep my caster-heavy parties safe. fighters are real great for this - one of their stances gives them +3 engagement *and* damage reduction.

edit: do you actually see the engagement lines? it should be pretty obvious which characters are engaging each other. disengagement attacks are far more punishing than normal attacks (huge acc bonus, huge damage bonus)

 

41 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

Sometimes my tank is engaged with one enemy, and the same enemy is attacking another melee from my group.

Does the enemy have engagement? If not, then just step away and let the enemy retarget your tank, because they'll be engaged (if your tank is properly set up) and the AI is extremely reluctant to break engagement.

If the enemy has engagement you should, as some suggestions:

• instead have your non-tank melee target non-engaging targets
• interrupt/prone/knockup them (while they're interrupted, they can't engage)
• hit them with something that grants staggered or dazed (eliminates engagement)
• hit them with hard crowd control (stun, paralyze, terrify)
• edit: buff your non-tank melee with swift (can't be engaged) or equip non-engaging armor

if you're still struggling, i would question what that other melee character is. most non-tank melee-ers have escape abilities of some sort, even if it's just bonuses against disengagement. Even a barbarian built to be a glass cannon has sprint and leap. Rogues are the most glass-cannon-y of melee characters, and not only do they have tons of escape mechanics, pretty much all their abilities interrupt, which lets you run away if needed. the AI also likes to target lower health characters - try picking up tough, not-dumping your CON, etc. a tank with lower health but high defenses will be a juicy target for the AI. all else fails, equip your non-tank melee with reach weapons (staff, pike, there's a reach unique great sword).

 

edit: worth pointing out there are plenty of (even some pretty major) systems that have tanks but no system of aggro or taunts (which are both pretty MMO specific mechanics imo). Generally they rely on making it extremely punishing for enemies to *not* target the tank, or to step away from them. same principle.

it's also worth pointing out that while some AI will love to just target squishier characters (bad news for glass cannon melee with no mobility), some AI are just sticky to their first target (good news if it's your tank). The AI kinda varies. Enemy rogues, for example, can get really punishing because at mid-levels bc they frequently have engagement and will use mobility spells to jump past your front line, trapping and absolutely wrecking your squishier characters - this AI's aggressive willingness to go after squishy characters (even eating a disengagement attack if necessary) is kinda unique to rogue types. Of course, that's what you should be doing to them, given the chance

Edited September 8, 2021 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Apologies for the "stupid" - I don't meant it, it's just the quote.

[freddfranca]

27 minutes ago, thelee said:

this right here is kind of answering your own question. if your backline caster is being attacked, then a tank is not doing their job somewhere. make sure you actually have enough engagement. it seems like you get the gist of it, but just to reiterate: most characters don't have engagement by default and a shield is the main way. some of the real "tank"-type classes have additional ways to get more engagement (barb, fighter), and a few casters have abilities that grant more engagement. generally one engagement per melee is not enough i find to keep my caster-heavy parties safe. fighters are real great for this - one of their stances gives them +3 engagement *and* damage reduction.

edit: do you actually see the engagement lines? it should be pretty obvious which characters are engaging each other. disengagement attacks are far more punishing than normal attacks (huge acc bonus, huge damage bonus)

 

Does the enemy have engagement? If not, then just step away and let the enemy retarget your tank, because they'll be engaged (if your tank is properly set up) and the AI is extremely reluctant to break engagement.

If the enemy has engagement you should, as some suggestions:

• instead have your non-tank melee target non-engaging targets
• interrupt/prone/knockup them (while they're interrupted, they can't engage)
• hit them with something that grants staggered or dazed (eliminates engagement)
• hit them with hard crowd control (stun, paralyze, terrify)
• edit: buff your non-tank melee with swift (can't be engaged) or equip non-engaging armor

if you're still struggling, i would question what that other melee character is. most non-tank melee-ers have escape abilities of some sort, even if it's just bonuses against disengagement. Even a barbarian built to be a glass cannon has sprint and leap. Rogues are the most glass-cannon-y of melee characters, and not only do they have tons of escape mechanics, pretty much all their abilities interrupt, which lets you run away if needed. the AI also likes to target lower health characters - try picking up tough, not-dumping your CON, etc. a tank with lower health but high defenses will be a juicy target for the AI. all else fails, equip your non-tank melee with reach weapons (staff, pike, there's a reach unique great sword).

 

edit: worth pointing out there are plenty of (even some pretty major) systems that have tanks but no system of aggro or taunts (which are both pretty MMO specific mechanics imo). Generally they rely on making it extremely punishing for enemies to *not* target the tank, or to step away from them. same principle.

it's also worth pointing out that while some AI will love to just target squishier characters (bad news for glass cannon melee with no mobility), some AI are just sticky to their first target (good news if it's your tank). The AI kinda varies. Enemy rogues, for example, can get really punishing because at mid-levels bc they frequently have engagement and will use mobility spells to jump past your front line, trapping and absolutely wrecking your squishier characters - this AI's aggressive willingness to go after squishy characters (even eating a disengagement attack if necessary) is kinda unique to rogue types. Of course, that's what you should be doing to them, given the chance

Thanks for the great explanation. When playing a Crusader, I hadn’t problema. But my last party had an Unbroken/Priest as tank, and even with the correct gear, sometimes he was being ignored, and I hadn’t time to do nothing because the enemies overwhelmed my squishy casters.

I will practice a little more…

[thelee]

4 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

But my last party had an Unbroken/Priest as tank, and even with the correct gear, sometimes he was being ignored,

one thing to remember is engaging is afaict an active action. you *have* to at least click on an enemy, and that'll trigger engagement (if available). if you just run in, say, try casting a spell, enemies will just walk around your would-be tank.

you can even do this to switch engagement, if you have multiple enemies and not enough open engagement. click on an enemy and your character will switch their engagements to include that enemy. i've definitely done this on characters with only one engagement to keep multiple enemies stuck on them and protect other characters.

(that being said, once you have engagement, it's sticky. you can read scrolls, drink potions, cast spells, etc. without dropping it)

Edited September 8, 2021 by thelee

[Ouroboros226]

Also use natural choke points. That way there is no way through cept the tank. For example have the tank at a door, your party behind. And throw AOE spells through at them. Maybe leave a little room for any melee dps to put in work.

If you are surrounded in the open, like with some encounters, the best thing imo is for your entire party to hug each other closely, having the tank face what you think is the most dangerous mob, and pre-emptively cast healing AOE zone and buffs which will now cover your entire party. I've noticed that at least in my experience, there aren't many places in the game where you get punished for sticking close to each other. I actually think the game could need a few more enemies that punishes the player for grouping because that strategy, while lame, is very strong.   

    

Edit: Positioning is so important in the initial phase of the encounter, that an impossible encounter can be won - and an easy encounter lead to a wipe. Playing on veteran for the first time through this game, I realized this early. That positioning properly in the environment is pretty much the most valuable asset you have at your disposal. There is a place, an observatory, where an extremely hard fight takes place right inside with tons of strong enemies. I went from being destroyed in a minute, to a 5 minute fight I eventually won - by positioning differently. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Ouroboros226

[thelee]

19 minutes ago, Ouroboros226 said:

Positioning is so important in the initial phase of the encounter, that an impossible encounter can be won - and an easy encounter lead to a wipe.

oh yeah, this is real good advice.

 

if you have lame engagement skillz don't worry so long as you can just start combat right. especially on higher difficulties, deadfire is definitely a game where simply having the right formation to start a fight can make a pivotal difference. there are some nekataka/town ambushes that are brutal simply because you start surrounded or with limited control over your positioning.

Edited September 8, 2021 by thelee

[freddfranca]

12 minutes ago, thelee said:

oh yeah, this is real good advice.

 

if you have lame engagement skillz don't worry so long as you can just start combat right. especially on higher difficulties, deadfire is definitely a game where simply having the right formation to start a fight can make a pivotal difference. there are some nekataka/town ambushes that are brutal simply because you start surrounded or with limited control over your positioning.

Yes, one of the fights that I am struggling is right when you levar make, a desert with xaurips and a drake. When I can stealth and positioning myself, it’s ok, but when I fail the interaction and the fight starts with me surrounded, oh boy, I barely can do nothing

[Ouroboros226]

14 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

Yes, one of the fights that I am struggling is right when you levar make, a desert with xaurips and a drake. When I can stealth and positioning myself, it’s ok, but when I fail the interaction and the fight starts with me surrounded, oh boy, I barely can do nothing

Put healer in middle, walk your other party members around him/her. Use AOE heal zone and buffs while they close in. Throw a paladin brand perma damage dot on the most dangerous mob. Use any drugs or flasks. This is my usual opener when surrounded at the start of the fight. The last thing you want to do, is to spread your people out. Use pause and unpause to micromanage everything if it's a hard encounter.

The exception is if you have a rogue or rogue + X class, who can stealth and take down a target quickly. In this game an encounter is easier the longer you survive, and the faster you can down key enemies. Most encounters start in the enemy's favor, and becomes easier the faster you can even the odds so it balances out. So with a rogue in a situation like this, you want to stealth and micro, using pause and unpause a lot, to have the rogue assassinate high threat single targets. 

 

Edit: Worth mentioning that on any character you should probably head to Neketaka first and do quests there. As you can easily gain some levels doing no-combat quests. There will always be some places, if you are new to the game, which can't be won before you are higher level. On my first character I started exploring and met a giant golem of some kind. Well... suffice to say. No strategy could make that winnable. I advice you to make a hard save when landing on an island for the first time, and overwrite that save on the next one if the current island went ok. So you don't get stuck in a situation where you must replay hours of the game.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Ouroboros226

[Haplok]

I'd say quite the opposite is true: tanking is extremely strong here, when compared with other games I tend to play.

As Boeroer wrote, watch out for enemy rogue-types, though. They have mobility and sometimes also stealth abilities and love to target your squishies. Be careful to interrupt or CC them. Or build your casters so that they can take some punishment. I think enemy monks are SLIGHTLY less aggressive, but also very mobile and fast + very disruptive so watch out for them also.

 

One advice I can offer is to try advancing enemies under stealth with the tank (with engagements) at the front - and unstealth the tank first. Enemies who see and charge the tank when the combat starts, will generally stick to him and  will rarely try to switch targets (unless rogue/monk, that is).

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

One advice I can offer is to try advancing enemies under stealth with the tank (with engagements) at the front - and unstealth the tank first. Enemies who see and charge the tank when the combat starts, will generally stick to him and  will rarely try to switch targets (unless rogue/monk, that is).

Yes, this is the key to maximize the impact of a tank (+engagement) imo. If you then deploy lots of hard CC (from stealth) onto the enemies who surround your tank you'll also prevent most escapes into the backline and such.

My go-to strategy with a party mostly is: stealth, send tank in, unstealth tank, buff the party (mostly ACC, buffing doesn't break stealth), use hard CC and debuffs (breaks stealth), finally deal damage.  Enemies who don't gt affected by CC will still be bound by engagement. Fortunately those who resist CC are often not the ones who tend to rush your backline.