The Dwarf with the Boar

[Haplok]

On 7/30/2021 at 2:09 PM, Slack83er said:

You know.. You gave me an interesting idea.. A dwarf with rifle.. Seems fitting.. Maybe better than crossbow or arbalest. Still undecided between sc and mc.. Being noob-y, I tend to think at sc, but the little voice in my head keeps telling me "try mc!"

Well, my personal compass would be: if caster or monk, consider carefully whether going SC or MC (however who am I kidding, I still went with MC always). If martial: MC right away and never look back (the only martial I COULD see myself playing as SC is monk; incidentally, ranger might be the 3rd/4th best pick for martial SC, but... meh).

Edited August 2, 2021 by Haplok

[Elric Galad]

Druid, Priest, Wizard, Monks : SC is very good, MC still worth it.
Cipher, Barbarian : MC is usually better, but SC can be very good without too much effort.
Fighter, Paladins, Rogues, Rangers, Chanters : MC is much much easier, SC still has niche builds but you really need to know what you're doing.

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Fighter, Paladins, Rogues, Rangers, Chanters : MC is much much easier, SC still has niche builds but you really need to know what you're doing.

I wouldn't call SC Rogue niche, but maybe that's just me .

SC Assassin is one of the most powerful classes in the game from Day 1 and actually pretty straightforward IMHO. Build range or melee (or both), focus accordingly on Gambit or Vanishing Strike (or both) + the other high impact Rogue abilities and become the most ridiculous single target DPS on the face of Eora. Solo monster, Party monster if you accept to do a bit of micromanagement. That being said, as @Boeroer pointed out in another thread, you might end up being tempted to park your team somewhere and just solve tough encounters with the Assassin, which ends up being boring if you went in for party strategy.

But definitely SC Rogue is not in the same tier for me as SC Fighter.

[Elric Galad]

13 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I wouldn't call SC Rogue niche, but maybe that's just me .

SC Assassin is one of the most powerful classes in the game from Day 1 and actually pretty straightforward IMHO. Build range or melee (or both), focus accordingly on Gambit or Vanishing Strike (or both) + the other high impact Rogue abilities and become the most ridiculous single target DPS on the face of Eora. Solo monster, Party monster if you accept to do a bit of micromanagement. That being said, as @Boeroer pointed out in another thread, you might end up being tempted to park your team somewhere and just solve tough encounters with the Assassin, which ends up being boring if you went in for party strategy.

But definitely SC Rogue is not in the same tier for me as SC Fighter.

Yup, but :

- You have to pick assassin

- You have to put a lot of points in INT for vanishing strikes, or PER for Gambit etc...

- Many MC (Mindstalker, Swashbuckler) can have more impressive auto-attack due to stacking passives from 2 classes.

 

Upgraded Clear Out + WotEP or Sundering Blow vs bosses are really quite convenient. Fighter has his own god mode through Unbending.

 

SC Chanters have Eld Nary's and Animated weapons upgrades.

 

SC Ranger has... Melee + Mortar Whirling Strikes ?

 

SC Paladin has to rely on dying friendly summons, but has access to INFINITE ZEAL.

 

Being niche doesn't mean being inferior, it is just saying that there are a smaller number of builds that can be considered top tier. That's exactly what I meant when saying you have to know what you are doing (therefore the definition is a bit subjective)

[Not So Clever Hound]

I see your point, but then I struggle to see the difference between Cipher/Barb and the classes you described above: SC Cipher/Barb awesomeness is also about choosing specific combinations of subclasses and abilities - while I agree that it's hard to not effectively build an awesome SC Druid, Priest, Wizard, Monks regardless of choices.

So maybe I see 2 tiers, not 3 but of course it's a bit subjective as you said... anyway  back to pretending that I'm doing some work!

[Elric Galad]

9 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I see your point, but then I struggle to see the difference between Cipher/Barb and the classes you described above: SC Cipher/Barb awesomeness is also about choosing specific combinations of subclasses and abilities - while I agree that it's hard to not effectively build an awesome SC Druid, Priest, Wizard, Monks regardless of choices.

So maybe I see 2 tiers, not 3 but of course it's a bit subjective as you said... anyway  back to pretending that I'm doing some work!

That's true. Barbarian relies on picking one of the Shout upgrade (preferrably Driving Roar). Cipher is borderline with the casters because PL is really good, but still favors heavily some subclasses, picking Shared Nightmare, etc... If not, it won't be that much better than your usual Ancestor's Memory + Disintigrate spamming MC Cipher.

[Boeroer]

Every SC Rogue subclass with Gambit is very good. You just need more than 10 Guile and decent accuracy so you don't miss or graze (too much).

That's very straightforward. You will be at 100% crit conversion and can spam Gambit quasi-endlessly.

Streetfighter is better than Assassin with a party imo because no invisibility is needed (no "park and fight"  ). Works with melee or ranged weapons, but of course dual blunderbusses/mortars is best imo (first of all bc of Streetfighter passive and then it's very difficult to land only misses or grazes with those multihit shots).

I also find SC Trickster worthwhile. Wall of Flashing Steel (passive +10 deflection when scoring a crit, stacks with Mirrored Images etc.) + Gambit is very nice. Crits galore as usual but quasi-permanent +10 deflection because of that. Combine with deflection gear and you'll deal lots of damage while being able to "dodge" lots of attacks. 

Debonaire is only nice for the additional tier-3 body inspiration for your charmed kith enemies I guess? Althoug iirc that's bound to char level, not Power Level? Don't remember. Anyway - if you charm the "right" enemy this can really mess up enemies' order. Suddenly the best of them comes at them with up to 3 body inspiration, charmed for nearly a minute... 
Not enough to justify SC alone though (even if it's unlockes by PL) - but you also get Gambit which would be the real motivation to go SC I think.

What I really don't know is why anyone would pick vanilla Rogue though - SC or MC. Imo there's not much (maybe zero?) motivation for that (Barbarian, Monk, Ranger and Fighter, too - but most of all I feel like that for Rogue). 

Anyway - I think SC Rogue is on another level as SC Fighter or Paladin for example (niche builds aside of course - I mean who doesn't love endless Zeal from sacrificed Skeletons etc.  )

Edited August 5, 2021 by Boeroer

[Desmodeus]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

SC Ranger has... Melee + Mortar Whirling Strikes ?

Offtopic but how melee SC ranger would look like? Pretty sure most of passives are range only this time

[Boeroer]

Most are not ranged passives, but some (Shot on the Run, Gunner, Marksman...). But there are enough passives that don't care about ranged or melee (all Animal Companion passives, Stalker's Link, Defensive Bond etc...). 

Some actives are melee only (Hunter's Claw, Whirling Strikes) although both can be tricked to work with one handed ranged weapons (as long as you carry another melee weapon or bashing shield).

Melee SC Ranger can be very potent due to Hunter's Claw + Whirling Strikes. The latter is better than Heart of Fury (Barb): more dmg, less resource cost. It's especially devastating with any kind of AoE weapon (Keeper of the Flame, offhand mortar etc.). 

However: where the SC Barb or SC Rogue might be able to regain some resources (Blood Surge, Gambit) the SC Ranger has no integral means to regain Bond.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

58 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

However: where the SC Barb or SC Rogue might be able to regain some resources (Blood Surge, Gambit) the SC Ranger has no integral means to regain Bond.

This is the biggest downside to SC ranger in my opinion. You really need a cipher pal to cast brilliant on you. I've never tried playing a solo SC ranger for this reason.

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I also find SC Trickster worthwhile

I absolutely second that, actually forgot to mention it. If you want an SC Rogue without Assassin/Streetfighter/Debonaire shenanigans and associated maluses, SC Trickster is strictly better and it can do a million amazing things solo and in a party. My solo run with SC Trickster really opened my eyes to the potential of this class. I mean, a full-blown Rogue with virtually no downsides, who can cast some of the most powerful Wizard spells up to PL8 stuff? Yes please.

EDIT: ok to be fair, I also love the Arcane Trickster in D&D . Ah, if only PoE Trickster could add Sneak Attack to spell damage just as his distant cousin from another dimension.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

17 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Most are not ranged passives, but some (Shot on the Run, Gunner, Marksman...). But there are enough passives that don't care about ranged or melee (all Animal Companion passives, Stalker's Link, Defensive Bond etc...). 

Some actives are melee only (Hunter's Claw, Whirling Strikes) although both can be tricked to work with one handed ranged weapons (as long as you carry another melee weapon or bashing shield).

Melee SC Ranger can be very potent due to Hunter's Claw + Whirling Strikes. The latter is better than Heart of Fury (Barb): more dmg, less resource cost. It's especially devastating with any kind of AoE weapon (Keeper of the Flame, offhand mortar etc.). 

However: where the SC Barb or SC Rogue might be able to regain some resources (Blood Surge, Gambit) the SC Ranger has no integral means to regain Bond.

Gambit does not allow to gain ressources, though. It is at best a potentially free attack (which is great). I can imagine that Gambit + Dual Mortars is pretty much guaranteed to get 2 crits every time. All you have to do is to switch to single target weapon set and spam Vanishing Strikes when necessary.

And Blood Surge is... her... a bit meh for a Tier 9 (especially vs boss). Sounds too much like a win more for me, and kills are limited. The biggest advantage of SC Barbarian for me is what they can do for 1 freaking rage point. Driving Roar and to a lesser extent Dazing Shout are just that good, everything else is icing (barbaric retaliation is arguably a bit more that just icing).

Now, I would say Chanters, Rangers and Fighters are arguably the hardest to make work as single classes. For chanters, I got the strange feeling that every crowd was able to reflect Eld Nary's bounce to my own party, and MC chanters can have most of chants and 3 Animated Weapons are good enough to spend your phrases anyway.

[Elric Galad]

15 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

EDIT: ok to be fair, I also love the Arcane Trickster in D&D . Ah, if only PoE Trickster could add Sneak Attack to spell damage just as his distant cousin from another dimension.

Funny thing isthat in PoE1, they could add Deathblow to spells (+100% damages vs at least 2 afflictions). They didn't have spell, but using scrolls and items, the could become temporary casters.