The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?

[ComradeYellow]

So far Biden has been pretty apt actually, he seems to be managing "allies" pretty well and is actually working with Republicans on infrastructure.  I do not agree with his continuing Trump's policy on China but I suppose that's the cost for getting some internal economic reforms done, to throw the jackasses some bones in return for compliance on that regard.

I predict Biden will start to deteriorate soon enough though, once culture wars flair up again and he has his hands full trying to deal with it.  He simply does not have what it takes to effectively crush the cultural fascists, and his weakness will stick out like a soar thumb, effectively rendering him catatonic.

[BruceVC]

https://www.sabcnews.com/sabcnews/amnesty-international-sa-condemns-looting-in-kwazulu-natal-and-gauteng/

The former SA president, Jacob Zuma, who has been complicate in billions of Rands of corruption charges over the last 10 years was jailed last week for......contempt of court for not appearing at an enquiry around a particular case of corruption. He received really bad legal advice and basically thought he could ignore a binding, subpoena to appear in court

He was jailed for 15 months for this particular infraction. Now in parts of the country we are seeing looting and blatant criminal acts perpetuated by people who primarily  belong to the same tribe as Jacob Zulu and in the province where this tribe is dominant which is where I grew up, Kwazulu Natal. His tribe are Zulus and most Zulu people are not involved in the criminal acts but small groups are

However this criminal element has burnt trucks at toll bridges and looted and attacked malls and shops

They need to deploy the army because allowing protracted, violent strikes to continue never achieves anything constructive in the long term 

 

[Gfted1]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

They need to deploy the army because allowing protracted, violent strikes to continue never achieves anything constructive in the long term 

Pffft, rookies. They should squat in some public spaces for months (years?) on end. Or perhaps chains themselves to some infrastructure projects.

[BruceVC]

33 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Pffft, rookies. They should squat in some public spaces for months (years?) on end. Or perhaps chains themselves to some infrastructure projects.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2021-07-12-live-updates-riots-and-looting-mob-sets-mall-in-vosloorus-on-fire/

Here is an outcome of what happens when you allow violent protests to continue and like in the USA we also have some liberals who make public statements like " the police mustnt use rubber bullets because these protests are about ...inequality and poverty " so the protestors run rampant and just destroy business 

The USA isnt at the point of SA but its a slippery slope when you ignore and justify violence from mobs 

Take a look at the photos in the link, this is from today 

Edited July 12, 2021 by BruceVC

[Gfted1]

But isnt that how the downtrodden "punch upward"? By destroying the local town and businesses where they live? 

[BruceVC]

25 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

But isnt that how the downtrodden "punch upward"? By destroying the local town and businesses where they live? 

Yes this is also the pointlessness of this type of destruction normally, its in towns and areas where many impoverished people live so protestors are only hurting themselves and increasing inequality 

And to make things worse its not all the people living in these areas that involved in criminal acts but the entire community will suffer because of this

Our problem in SA is have allowed much of these violent protests to continue and many people in society have made excuses for it so it sets a dangerous precedent 

But these specific protests in SA are also in residential areas and middle class sectors which are the main contribution towards our tax base and actually employ people. So we talking about a small number of people who feel emboldened by the lack of action and arrests and they believe they can act with impunity

The good news is our army is now being deployed because the police are overwhelmed 

[Gfted1]

Does SA also have problems with the indigenous tribes claiming every cm of earth to be sacred land? Biden is nuts if he thinks a single infrastructure wont get sued into oblivion by some group.  Fittingly, imo, it will be "the people" that ultimately destroy the US.

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Here is an outcome of what happens when you allow violent protests to continue and like in the USA we also have some liberals who make public statements like " the police mustnt use rubber bullets because these protests are about ...inequality and poverty " so the protestors run rampant and just destroy business 

So police should use live ammunition ? 

[Gfted1]

Hmm, it would probably be a lot more effective if we developed a drone that could "crop dust" an entire street at once with gas instead of small pockets here and there.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, Malcador said:

So police should use live ammunition ? 

Only against people I don't like.

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Hmm, it would probably be a lot more effective if we developed a drone that could "crop dust" an entire street at once with gas instead of small pockets here and there.

Think that would unsafe for the people you are trying to disperse, not only for the effects of it on their eyes and respiratory system, if you are going to immerse them in a cloud they can't even see clearly. You'd have to dump a LOT as well, so.

 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Does SA also have problems with the indigenous tribes claiming every cm of earth to be sacred land? Biden is nuts if he thinks a single infrastructure wont get sued into oblivion by some group.  Fittingly, imo, it will be "the people" that ultimately destroy the US.

The " Land question " as its known in SA is not our main economic problem, its an old debate and comes from those people who believe land ownership will achieve economic prosperity but this an outdated understanding of the structures of the SA economy. Agriculture only contributes 6-7 % of overall  GDP so its not going to change much

Our problem is job creation and how having a job allows you access to resources like the ability to get a home loan and have basic spending power to allow SA to become a consumer driven economy. But we dont have the jobs for several reasons like a lack of FDI ( foreign direct investment ) because of problems like self-inflicted downgrades from the credit ratings, our huge government debt  and the massive problem with our unions and labor protest

So we much worse off than any social and economic problems in the US. We can achieve our economic goals but government has to be decisive and implement necessary austerity and retrenchments in the public sector which has a bloated and ineffective work force in certain institutions....not all of them but several 

50 minutes ago, Malcador said:

So police should use live ammunition ? 

No you misunderstanding my point because I didnt clarify. During violent protests over the last 10 years their is pressure on the police to not even use rubber bullets because their have been isolated incidents of people during protests, 3 cases in hundreds of violent protests, being killed by rubber bullets. But no,  live ammunition is not what I am suggesting at all and that wont help as we not China or some police state. But water cannons and rubber bullets can be used effectively to quell protests where buildings and shops are torched 

Here is an example of the push back on rubber bullets 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/15/south-africa-police-kill-bystander-protest

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by BruceVC

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

So police should use live ammunition ? 

Only if they're miners and the mine is part owned by Cyril Ramaphosa.

[Raithe]

[url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-putin-campaigner-arrested-as-he-tries-to-register-as-candidate-lxzqgkmz3]Times - Anti-Putin campaigner arrested as he tries to register as candidate[/url]

Police in central Russia have physically stopped an opposition activist from standing for election by blocking his entrance to a local government building as he arrived to register his candidacy.
Dmitri Krasichkov, an anti-corruption campaigner in Lipetsk, a small city 300 miles south of Moscow, won last year’s elections to the city council but the results were declared void by officials, regional media reported. He had planned to stand in elections this autumn.

 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Only if they're miners and the mine is part owned by Cyril Ramaphosa.

Zora please stop repeating this conspiracy theory, its inaccurate and intellectually and morally beneath you

People died at Marikana due to a sequence of events and months of violent protests. Before the miners were killed 10 police and security members were killed by the miners....people who also had families and were just doing their job

In SA their is still this false narrative repeated by a few  " Cyril ordered the police to kill the miners ". No he didnt, he was at the mine negotiating between the unions and mine owners because he use to part of the trade union movement but his input made no difference

When people use the additional false narrative of " the mine was part owned by Cyril " he was just a shareholder of Lonmin like  tens of thousands  of other people. Being a shareholder doesnt make you responsible  for decisions that the police made due to  fear and not being trained properly to deal with thousands of angry miners who were armed.

Marikana was a tragedy, a terrible tragedy and numerous groups all should have taken equal responsibility 

If you genuinely care about this story I can share many links to confirm and clarify the truth 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.news24.com/news24/SouthAfrica/News/violence-looting-continues-in-durban-and-surrounding-areas-on-monday-night-20210713

The rampant looting and torching of malls and shops continues in SA in 2 provinces

One of the provinces is  our economic hub that contributes close to 60 % to GDP  has been targeted but where I live in the Western Cape we not seeing violent mobs 

Despite the army being deployed they cannot be everywhere at once as we have dozens of small towns where this criminality is occurring. Its like living in some theoretical SJ  projection  where people say unhelpful  things like " the poor will rise due to inequality " except it real and its caused by small groups out of millions of impoverished people and its continuing because we have allowed a culture of impunity to develop over the last 12-15 years where our security forces havent enforced the rule of law and order effectively on other violent protests 

Edited July 13, 2021 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

Another nightmare outcome of this violence is citizens in suburbs in the targeted provinces have formed their own militias to protect their homes and businesses

My sister was telling me that in an area called Hillcrest where one of my brothers live is that on the streets their are large groups of armed people determined to protect their homes and families

This is one of the absolutely justified reasons for citizens to own firearms because  similar to the debate in the  USA citizens have a right to protect themselves. The difference in SA is the " enemy " is not  concern with Federal government overreach but rather what happens when your security forces cant protect its citizens from brazen violent mobs intent on mass looting of business and peoples livelihoods

And the looting and destruction of shops is worse in all our black townships 

 

[majestic]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

except it real and its caused by small groups out of millions of impoverished people and its continuing because we have allowed a culture of impunity to develop over the last 12-15 years where our security forces havent enforced the rule of law and order effectively on other violent protests

Weren't you amongst the people who complained when China made sure the protests in Hong Kong could not escalate like that in 12 to 15 years by cracking down on them really hard right here and now?

Just curious, really. Because your posts kind of leave the impression that fascist police states are fine just as long as they oppress black wage slaves instead of (somewhat) rich Chinese people. Surely that can't be it, can it?

[BruceVC]

45 minutes ago, majestic said:

Weren't you amongst the people who complained when China made sure the protests in Hong Kong could not escalate like that in 12 to 15 years by cracking down on them really hard right here and now?

Just curious, really. Because your posts kind of leave the impression that fascist police states are fine just as long as they oppress black wage slaves instead of (somewhat) rich Chinese people. Surely that can't be it, can it?

No thats not it  at  all and I thought I had been  clear on this in my explanations of the  ongoing violence in SA

I have no idea what you mean by  the HK protests, my view on that is and was critical of what is ongoing in HK because the system of Democracy has been destroyed by the CCP. And I will never support the erosion of Democracy

In SA we support protests, its in our Constitution. But I dont support violent protests, looting and the torching of malls which is ongoing. Its incredibly simple to understand and the current violence is primarily  about the destruction of black businesses so this has nothing to do with ....black wages, its criminality 

So I dont know how you come to the spurious conclusion I support police states, maybe you can clarify how you came to that view ?

I support the rule of order being enforced in any Constitutional Democracy in the world. I am unclear why anyone who lives in a country who has a similar system of government would disagree ?

 

[majestic]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

No thats not it  at  all and I thought I had been  clear on this in my explanations of the  ongoing violence in SA

Really, because by your explanations "the blacks" should not riot but instead accept their lot in life, and if they don't, then we send in the army to quell the uprising. Law and order.

You think the French revolution would have worked out all right if the peasants just screamed at Versailles instead of brining torches and pitchforks to the party (figuratively spoken)?

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

So I dont know how you come to the spurious conclusion I support police states, maybe you can clarify how you came to that view ?

Well...

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Despite the army being deployed they cannot be everywhere at once

 

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

One of the provinces is  our economic hub that contributes close to 60 % to GDP

You want to protect rich people's yacht money (which is what you mean when you talk about the economy) and then lament that the army can't crack down hard enough.

18 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But we dont have the jobs for several reasons like a lack of FDI ( foreign direct investment ) because of problems like self-inflicted downgrades from the credit ratings, our huge government debt  and the massive problem with our unions and labor protest

Better watch out, unions and labor protests are really a problem when fishing for investors to make good use of the cheap black labour force. Send in the air support. Silly blacks should just work their asses off in mines, and if they protest, well, let's gun them down.

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

When people use the additional false narrative of " the mine was part owned by Cyril " he was just a shareholder of Lonmin like  tens of thousands  of other people. Being a shareholder doesnt make you responsible  for decisions that the police made due to  fear and not being trained properly to deal with thousands of angry miners who were armed.

Poor shareholders falsely framed for creating the very circumstances that lead to protests turned violent. No, really, I'm going to cry.

18 hours ago, BruceVC said:

During violent protests over the last 10 years their is pressure on the police to not even use rubber bullets because their have been isolated incidents of people during protests, 3 cases in hundreds of violent protests, being killed by rubber bullets. But no,  live ammunition is not what I am suggesting at all and that wont help as we not China or some police state. But water cannons and rubber bullets can be used effectively to quell protests where buildings and shops are torched 

Yeah, so property damage ranks higher on your list than human casualties. Why not just taser everyone.

And that's just this page, never mind the others you've filled with your fascist postings. Face the music, you really like police oppression and a hard clamp down in the name of law and order, just as long as you get to vote for whoever is doing it... to the others (curiously enough, seems to be blacks).

 

Hey, here's an idea, why don't you go work in a mine for a while? Or push pallets and packages in an Amazon warehouse. No?

Edited July 13, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

13 minutes ago, majestic said:

crypto-fascist postings

I thought crypto was supposed to be subtle?

[majestic]

Just now, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I thought crypto was supposed to be subtle?

You're right, we're way past that point. I'll go fix it.

[Malcador]

19 hours ago, BruceVC said:

No you misunderstanding my point because I didnt clarify. During violent protests over the last 10 years their is pressure on the police to not even use rubber bullets because their have been isolated incidents of people during protests, 3 cases in hundreds of violent protests, being killed by rubber bullets. But no,  live ammunition is not what I am suggesting at all and that wont help as we not China or some police state. But water cannons and rubber bullets can be used effectively to quell protests where buildings and shops are torched 

Here is an example of the push back on rubber bullets 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/15/south-africa-police-kill-bystander-protest

Ah ok, I see now.  If the police are killing people with the rubber bullets, does seem reasonable to conclude that the cops are not using them properly though. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

56 minutes ago, majestic said:

Really, because by your explanations "the blacks" should not riot but instead accept their lot in life, and if they don't, then we send in the army to quell the uprising. Law and order.

You think the French revolution would have worked out all right if the peasants just screamed at Versailles instead of brining torches and pitchforks to the party (figuratively spoken)?

Well...

 

You want to protect rich people's yacht money (which is what you mean when you talk about the economy) and then lamet that the army can't crack down hard enough.

Better watch out, unions labor protests are really a problem when fishing for investors to make good use of the cheap black labour force. Send in the air support. Silly blacks should just work their asses off in mines, and if they protest, well, let's gun them down.

Poor shareholders falsely framed for creating the very circumstances that lead to protests turned violent. No, really, I'm going to cry.

Yeah, so property damage ranks higher on your list than human casualties. Why not just taser everyone.

And that's just this page, never mind the others you've filled with your crypto-fascist postings. Face the music, you really like police oppression and a hard clamp down in the name of law and order, just as long as you get to vote for whoever is doing it... to the others (curiously enough, seems to be blacks).

 

Hey, here's an idea, why don't you go work in a mine for a while? Or push pallets and packages in an Amazon warehouse. No?

Okay you are misunderstanding several things about the points I have made and even though I feel I am repeating myself again I will do it in the interests of clarity. And I think this is an important debate and I appreciate your feedback 

I have no issues with peaceful protests, I have issues with violent protests. Do you support protests where protestors kill security guards, police and loot shops and burn malls ? Can you answer this question so I understand your view 

This is not about race so please try to understand this, if white people or Mexicans or Mongolians were protesting I would have the same view. I dont support violent protests....peaceful protests are fine and allowed in most of our Constitutional Democracies. Rubber bullets and water cannons shouldnt ever be used on peaceful protests...why would they need to be used when the protesters are not  destroying things or attacking people ?

I realise you dont work in the financial sector or have studied economics so some of what you saying is more about me not explaining properly or you misunderstanding what I am saying. So I need to cover some of  your points which are valid concerns 

When  you have a  province in any country that contributes 60 % of GDP and within that province their is looting and burning of businesses then it creates a huge negative impact to the overall GDP of the country so yes its relevant to overall economic transformation and how any country can address goals like reducing inequality and job creation. So this has nothing to do with protecting the rich, this is about the overall ability of any country to have a sustainable economy ...and most important uplifting the poor. The rich will survive this, its the less wealthy  that will suffer when businesses close down as people have now lost their jobs ....thousands of South Africans, mostly but not all black people, no longer will have a job. That is the reality and only outcome from this looting and violence 

The point about the mines and unions is not primarily  about the wages people are asking for. Its the protracted nature of the protests, the violence  and the demands. Lets take the Marikana  strike that  went on for 3 months before the shooting tragedy. During that time their was no work...as in no mining going on. With sectors like mining because of the reality of how you extract commodities and how you need monthly quotas extracted and sold that means Lonmin cannot make its target end of the year so basically they fail to be profitable which means investors sell shares and the entire company suffers. That means the company starts running at a loss and to rectify that for the next financial year you have to make structural changes to the  overall company ....which basically means retrenchments. Thats how all listed companies work and how all investment works  because no investor is going to invest in any company where their investment loses money. Why would you ? So a protest for 2 weeks with reasonable demands you can absorb but no company can survive or be profitable if for 3 months their is no work and no revenue stream

And if you dont agree with the principle of profitability then you cant ask or expect salary increases or bonuses because how is the company suppose to pay for these things if its running at a loss 

You seem to justify violence and looting with the French Revolution example, its not a very accurate comparison to any country in the year 2021. That was about an absolute Monarchy with a clear class  divide of real nobles and peasantry and the poor had no rights and no way to change their economic status, people were born into positions of wealth and they didnt have to work to keep that privlidege . That is not how any Constitutional Democracy exists nowadays because even people born in poverty can get an education, get a job and change their economic status...but you need a job at least and a sustainable economy. 

And finally I have a white collar job, why would I want to work in a mine? I wouldnt  survive 2 days with the physical burden that  job entails. That has nothing to do with me supporting peaceful protests and being opposed to violent protests 

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

36 minutes ago, majestic said:

You're right, we're way past that point. I'll go fix it.

If only calling it what it is was a fix.

25 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Ah ok, I see now.  If the police are killing people with the rubber bullets, does seem reasonable that the cops are not using them properly though.

My understanding is that rubber bullets are designed to be shot at the ground and bounced towards crowds to reduce the amount of force. If you shoot directly at people, as was the case over the 2020 summer in the US, you end up with a lot of disfigurement and some death. I guess it's a question of whether the police are doing it intentionally or just don't read the manual, and then another question if that makes a difference.