Ydwin as Cipher(Beguiler)/Rogue(Debonaire)

[crdvis16]

I modded Ydwin to have subclasses but I'm not entirely sure I'm playing this combo right.  The Debonaire part seems particularly difficult to pull off correctly- you want to attack charmed enemies to utilize the hit to crit mechanic but attacking them breaks the charm (which is arguably more important than a crit).  I've been trying to get around this by using DoTs (Disintegrate primarily) so that the charm doesn't break but I can't tell if a crit DoT actually does anything- in the combat log the tick damage and total duration seem to be the same as a non-crit.  Maybe the combat log is inaccurate or maybe I'm just mistaken?

In any case, my normal strategy with her has been to throw out deception AoE spells (phantom foes, binding thoughts, secret horrors, and eye strike) that build up my focus followed by ringleader.  From there, any charmed enemies get Disintegrate where hopefully the high crit rate is doing something. 

Most of my Rogue abilities don't really seem worth using other than maybe ring the bell- I'd usually prefer to use a cipher's AoE eye strike than a rogue's single target eye gouge.  I guess the rogue tree can just go for mostly passive abilities?

[Boeroer]

Yeah... I prefer a Debonaire/Wizard and a separate Beguiler in the party. Although Desintegrate + charm should work nicely. It should give you a lot more duration. The Debonaire crit conversion is a bit botchrd though it seems. Looks like you have to have some other form of conversion in order to "register" it properly. Like Dirty Fighting. I tested this after release of the Debonaire and conversion wouldn't happen if I didn't also take Dirty Fighting. But then it was 100%. The combat log always said it was DirtY Fighting that did the conversion though. My suspection is that the game just takes an existing conversion and sets it to 100 against charmed enemies. But if you don't have any conversion to begin with it may be that it then fails to do so. Maybe. Would explain my weird test results.

[crdvis16]

Maybe I'll try to pay attention to the combat log and do some tests with her.  I definitely see [Debonaire] listed when the hits get converted to crit but often the duration and tick damage seems to be the same as a regular hit.  

[mjo2138]

I am running a MC Debonair/Beguiler, and the 100 percent conversion to crit does not work for me, despite using charm on enemies, and having the rogue passive dirty fighting... Kinda rough because that was the focal point of this build.  In any case, beguiler is so fun. I never run out of focus after I spam Phantom Foes a few times! That means I can use Silent Scream often, and serve as a healer with pain block spamming in fights! 

[Boeroer]

18 minutes ago, mjo2138 said:

I am running a MC Debonair/Beguiler, and the 100 percent conversion to crit does not work for me, despite using charm on enemies, and having the rogue passive dirty fighting... 

That's not great to hear. It worked quite nicely right after release of the Debonaire- and was the first thing I tried with him.  

[mjo2138]

I will have to keep testing it! Maybe if I respec and pick up some different passives... in any case, it is still a very fun class! I have found that I end up focusing on controlling the battlefield with deception spells, shred spells, and healing as I mentioned, which more than occupies my role in the party. In fact, @boeroer, you mentioned a beguiler/beckoner build, and I wish I had tried that ! I will keep on with this build, and It will come together. The great thing about this game is the infinite number of builds and synergies to explore.

[crdvis16]

Are you aware that the Debonaire must land the hit in order to get the crit conversion?  Graze/miss will not convert to crit I believe.   I've definitely gotten hit to crit conversion in the combat log with [Debonaire] listed as the cause.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, crdvis16 said:

Graze/miss will not convert to crit I believe.

You are correct. 

[thelee]

On 4/30/2021 at 5:01 PM, crdvis16 said:

I've been trying to get around this by using DoTs (Disintegrate primarily) so that the charm doesn't break but I can't tell if a crit DoT actually does anything- in the combat log the tick damage and total duration seem to be the same as a non-crit.  Maybe the combat log is inaccurate or maybe I'm just mistaken?

Disintegrate is an ApplyOverTime effect so most auto-generated tooltips and helpful things will probably not be any help to you since the auto-generation is incorrect. A crit DoT of any kind will have a multiplicative 25% duration increase (note in that link I wrote that PEN also gets a boost for DoTs but I'm honestly not so sure if I got that right, need to retest). This is not necessarily as great as a crit for a non-DoT, but the multiplicative nature means that if you have lots of intellect on a powerful effect you can get a whole lot.

DoT damage is not affected by crit. Things like Necrotic Lance will be affected, because it's actually two components - an instant damage part (that gets boosted by a crit) and a DoT (which only has a durational increase by crit).

 

On 5/1/2021 at 3:17 AM, Boeroer said:

But if you don't have any conversion to begin with it may be that it then fails to do so. Maybe. Would explain my weird test results.

I played a Debonaire fairly recently (5.0) and could swear it worked fine for me even before picking Dirty Fighting.

 

To OP's q's: I've found in practice it's rarely worth deliberately trying to crit an enemy with most effects for much of a fight. Once you get up to a high enough level where you start granting body inspirations to a charmed enemy, it narrows the type of effects you can safely land a crit without it being a complete waste (or at least significantly undermining it). And effects that break charm you don't really want to land because the charm is really powerful, i'd rather have the charm in place most of the time.

What I ended up doing is mostly trying to micromanage and landing a simple weapon attack (or cheap rogue ability) or poison attack when the enemy has like a couple seconds left on the duration especially if it's the last enemy (for last melee enemies I found it fun do an arterial strike and just run away and let the extended duration kill it as it tries to chase). Disintegrate might be a rare exception because just getting a durational boost on that is huge and there's no affliction that might be immediately countered by the charm effect. Toxic Strike maybe something similar, but that's a rather expensive 4-guile combo.

 

edit: make sure you are actually using charm. dominate doesn't give you a 100% crit conversion.

Edited May 4, 2021 by thelee

[Boeroer]

10 minutes ago, thelee said:

To OP's q's: I've found in practice it's rarely worth deliberately trying to crit an enemy with most effects for much of a fight. Once you get up to a high enough level where you start granting body inspirations to a charmed enemy, it narrows the type of effects you can safely land a crit without it being a complete waste (or at least significantly undermining it). And effects that break charm you don't really want to land because the charm is really powerful, i'd rather have the charm in place most of the time.

You mean Roguish Charm. But I guess OP was talking about Whisper of Treason (or Ring Leader) since the Debonaire Charm only works on kith. 

Something else: dominate doesn't work with the Debonaire passive - only charm does.

Speaking about Roguish Charm: would it be possible to apply both the Roguish Charm (inspirations) AND the upgraded Chanter charm (30% bonus damage) to the same target utilizing confusion?

[Boeroer]

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Speaking about Roguish Charm: would it be possible to apply both the Roguish Charm (inspirations) AND the upgraded Chanter charm (30% bonus damage) to the same target utilizing confusion?

Glad you asked that question Boeroer. I quickly loaded up Deadfire and tried this and indeed: you can stack both charms on one enemy (if the second charmer is confused) and give that charmed enemy the body inspirations as well as the bonus damage. Cheers!

Edit: Confusion is cool. For example it also allows a paladin to cast exhortations on charmed enemies (which would otherwise be impossible). Buffing up your charmed guys like there's no tomorrow, yeah!

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[crdvis16]

Yep- I should have specified that if I use ringleader then I'm only getting hit->crit on the AoE charm around the dominated enemy.  If ringleader won't hit multiple enemies or I'm focus poor then I'd use Whispers of Treason or Roguish Charm.

Good to know about how crits work with DoTs, though.  Extended duration is kinda weak I'd say.  I assume any +crit damage effects do nothing for a DoT that crits if the crit just extends duration by 25%?

Hit to crit on charmed enemies seems difficult to really take good advantage of.  TheLee's idea of timing big hits for when charm is about to fall off anyway seems like it might be the best way.  Maybe charm->DoT->big hit.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Good to know about how crits work with DoTs, though.  Extended duration is kinda weak I'd say.  I assume any +crit damage effects do nothing for a DoT that crits if the crit just extends duration by 25%?

Actually dmg wise +25% duration is much better than +25% dmg. The additonal duration is a multiplicative dmg increase - while the latter is only an additive one. And since Disintegrate does raw dmg PEN isn't an issue.

+crit dmg effects indeed do nothing for DoTs.

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Hit to crit on charmed enemies seems difficult to really take good advantage of.  TheLee's idea of timing big hits for when charm is about to fall off anyway seems like it might be the best way.  Maybe charm->DoT->big hit.

 I prefer to use a Debonaire/Wizard to nuke on the enemies whom a Cipher or Chanter charmed for me. It removes most PEN issues (because crits = PEN*1.5) and also the Wizard has many friendly fire spells. They will flip back of course. But that's okay if the charm was about to wear off anyway (especially withc Chanter since the charm is rather short-lived). 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[mjo2138]

10 hours ago, crdvis16 said:

Are you aware that the Debonaire must land the hit in order to get the crit conversion?  Graze/miss will not convert to crit I believe.   I've definitely gotten hit to crit conversion in the combat log with [Debonaire] listed as the cause.

Good point! I have been checking out some weapons with good crit only procs, but it seems that ciphers can already emulate them. Perhaps I'd have fared better to play as  Debonair/Wizard, as mentioned above, for the crits to be more impactful. heck, even a Druid/Debonaire? 

[Boeroer]

Sunlance crits are pretty cool. Combine with a Paladin or Ranger to apply Inspired Beacon or Takedown Combo first: death laser from the sky, sha-la-la-la-la  

Edited May 5, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Sunlance crits are pretty cool. Combine with a Paladin/Ranger to apply Inspired Beacon + Takedown Combo first

But then you could also go Assassin/Druid for the +25ACC and +50% Crit DMG bonus. With Inspired Beacon + Takedown combo that's a one shot spell probably on par with Thunderous Report from Mythic Kitchen Stove. It's single target, but you have two casts.

A Shadow Druid casting Sun spells, how ironic.

[Boeroer]

I think Inspired Beacon and Takedown Combo don't stack. But yes, also nice.

 

[Haplok]

15 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I think Inspired Beacon and Takedown Combo don't stack. But yes, also nice.

 

I wouldn't be sure of that. Of course, you'd have to apply Beacon first.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Beacon doesn't remove TDC. It's just so that if you have both applied the Beacon's dmg bonus doesn't get listed in the combat log, only TDC. I guess it gets suppressed. Or it was some glitch when I tried last time, no idea.