Politics XXXVIII (A Nontotient)

[Malcador]

25 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm not sure if arming protesters is going to de-escalate the situation.

Cops seem to be very polite and civil with armed guys at protests. 

[Guard Dog]

20 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Cops seem to be very polite and civil with armed guys at protests. 

Many cops tend to be bullies. Bullies tend to be cowardly souls who hate themselves and make up for it by beating down and humiliating others. Especially those who can't fight back. They are billy badass once a man is handcuffed and on the ground. When someone is capable of resistance they are a bit more circumspect. Especially if that individual isn't doing anything wrong or provocative. 

An armed society is a polite society.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

if you are concerned with keeping people safe, the obvious solution is to put additional firearms into the hands of scared and angry people. 

...

wait, that makes no sense at all.

also, am thinking gd is using "polite" wrong.

How The U.S. Compares With The Lowest Rates Of Violent Gun Deaths Worldwide
Violent gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2017

as to fed police in portland,

“Indeed we can think of no better example of the police power, which the Founders denied the national government and reposed in the states, than the suppression of violent crime and vindication of its victims.”-- J. Rehnquist, us v morrison (2000)

keep in mind the dhs secretary is saying his agents is authorized to "go out proactively and arrest individuals," which is a curious way o' admitting his troops is arresting people on the streets o' portland w/o warrants and absent probable cause, and then whisking the suspects away in vans to... someplace, where they is rare ever actual charged with anything, 'cause charging would expose the fed to potential civil rights charges. absent actual charges, it would appear this authoritarian display is all theatre and is about creating fear as 'posed to suppressing crime.

from a boston globe piece:

"Earlier this year the US Treasury Department imposed sanctions on Nicaragua’s national police and three police commanders. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said he acted because Nicaraguan police were engaged in “a campaign of violent repression.” He said the United States rejects police operations that “seek to silence pro-democracy voices.”"

there is no legal authority for fed agents in portland to be acting as they are, particular w/o the o' state and local authorization and in point o' fact, despite explicit rejection by state and local governments which forceful deny the propriety and legality o' the fed presence. this is not one o' those ambiguous, gray-area legal questions which is impenetrable and nebulous. identify the bad guys is not difficult.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 24, 2020 by Gromnir

[Amentep]

8 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

keep in mind the dhs secretary is saying his agents is authorized to "go out proactively and arrest individuals," which is a curious way o' admitting his troops is arresting people on the streets o' portland w/o warrants and absent probable cause, and then whisking the suspects away in vans to... someplace, where they is rare ever actual charged with anything, 'cause charging would expose the fed to potential civil rights charges. absent actual charges, it would appear this authoritarian display is all theatre and is about creating fear as 'posed to suppressing crime.

Curious about this since the unmarked police thing started - Isn't the action of taking people off the street and holding them but not charging them and not having a warrant or probably cause opening the officers who detain people to unlawful detention / false imprisonment charges?

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Amentep said:

Curious about this since the unmarked police thing started - Isn't the action of taking people off the street and holding them but not charging them and not having a warrant or probably cause opening the officers who detain people to unlawful detention / false imprisonment charges?

you are talking 'bout state charges, 'gainst which federal agents will claim immunity. where a fed agent is carrying out duty under color o' fed law, they is immune from state criminal actions. nevertheless, as the dhs agents is acting so complete beyond their authority under the Constitution, a couple State ag and local da have threatened to charge agents with such crimes.

HA! Good Fun! 

[Malcador]

22 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

f you are concerned with keeping people safe, the obvious solution is to put additional firearms into the hands of scared and angry people. 

Scared and angry people ? Well the cops already have them so no issue there.

 

[Gromnir]

Just now, Malcador said:

Scared and angry people ? Well the cops already have them so no issue there.

 

short term, there is no way to get rid o' the cop weapons. make certain all the protesters is equal armed makes situation more or less volatile? 

our issues with firearms is handguns. by every measure we has seen, the number o' firearm deaths from shotguns and rifles in the US every year is far below that o' blunt force weapon. however, in moments such as this, am not confidant peace will be attained by an influx o' ammo and guns. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Malcador]

Hm, tough to say.  Cops will definitely simmer down and be nice, I would think. Well unless they have black dudes with ARs, then they may employ their killology degrees.  But I am being a tad facetious. Definitely is not a good idea, as you look at worst case possible.

 

[Volourn]

"the obvious solution is to put additional firearms into the hands of scared and angry people.  "

 

Perhaps the people wouldn't be 'so scared and so angry' if the governments would do the job and arrest BLM and Antifa who committ all these robberies, rapes, arsons, assaults, and murders? But, nooo,,, it is all 'peaceful protesting' from the pure innocent BLM and Antifa gangs. You know, these are the people who CELEBRATE putting their knees on little babies 'for the cause'. Very few if anyone (only the most clearly of scum) celebrating what happened to Floyd. In fact, many people want to glorify him as some sort of saint. I prefer to call out the scumbag cop and the scumbag criminal. Because, well, they're both criminals.

Between this and COVID19, the US has failed from top to bottom.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Hm, tough to say.  Cops will definitely simmer down and be nice, I would think. Well unless they have black dudes with ARs, then they may employ their killology degrees.  But I am being a tad facetious. Definitely is not a good idea, as you look at worst case possible.

 

am recognizing your facetious, but others is more serious.

keep in mind there is a number o' well armed populations in the middle east. their experience with national police does not suggest an abundance o' firearms promotes polite and reserved behaviour in the cops, yes? 

am actual a bit surprised the 'bit bout politeness and well-armed societies persists particular in the US where the presence o' so many firearms leads to the cops being universal armed. furthermore, 'cause well-armed populations make any cop interaction potential deadly, police training is such that they is taught to react before thinking... the training is s'posed to replace hesitation. if a US cop is confronted by an armed suspect who points the weapon at cops or bystanders, the appropriate behaviour for the cop in most such situations is to eliminate the threat by aiming for center mass and firing until there is no more danger. cop training results in the exact opposite o' simmering dow-- insta-boil over is actual result. is just one reason why cop training in general needs be examined and evaluated.

regardless, as situation current exists, presence o' so many firearms, particular handguns which may be accessible but inconspicuous in almost every cop interaction with the public, makes cops nervous and twitchy as 'posed to polite and reserved.

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Cops love using their guns because they don't work for the people. They work for the government. They are not your friends. They will murder you for jaywalking in a heartbeat.

[Malcador]

26 minutes ago, Volourn said:

They are not your friends.

Never understood why anyone would think some armed, shaven headed dude with Oakleys would ever be so.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Malcador

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Never understood why anyone would think some armed, shaven headed dude with Oakleys would ever be so.

'cause all too often they is your only friend. car broken down on the side o' the road literal 100 miles from nowhere and zero cell phone service. a cop, 90 times outta 100, will pull over and offer help when most folks would drive on by with only a guilty glance in the rearview mirror to acknowledge your existence. your crazy neighbor follows vol posts and thinks all blm and antifa folks is supporting murder and mayhem, and you are a minority who looks like you belong to blm and/or antifa. neighbor is shouting obscenities at you and you can see him with a gasoline can and emergency flares as he threatens to set your house on fire. malc doesn't call cops-- they ain't your friends? etc.

*shrug*

same reasoning for lawyers. why would you ever trust a guy in a three thousand dollar suit and five hundred dollar pair o' loafers? he/she is not your friend. 'course when some dirtbag landlord is trying to evict you for no good reason, or your former boss is blacklisting you and preventing you from being hired anywhere, a lawyer may be your only friend. even more so with criminal charges, you may find yourself unexpected friendless.  accused o' some heinous crime none o' your real friends wanna be a part o', but is your lawyer who shows up at 3:00am at jail and fights for you. takes your panic'd calls when sheriff shows up at your home with a warrant and starts taking your property. 

have heard same silly reasoning for a bunch o' different professions and is typical volish bs.  paint all members o' the group with same oversized brush? ridiculous.

yeah, cops tend to be a bit broken. we sympathize with battered women and abused children and military vets who had to endure flight-or-flight anxiety on a daily basis for extended periods o' time. 'course cops ain't victims, so fact they is enduring brain busting traumas all too frequent to be healthy is ignored. is hardly a surprise so many cops shatter under the pressures and is yet another reason why cop training and counseling needs be prioritized. that said, collective we sympathize with kids who were abused by parents or schoolmates, and we lament the victims o' domestic abuse, but cops is just monsters and maniacs. military vets perhaps may sympathize a bit? sure, in recent decades, when they first come home, everybody applauds the sacrifice o' those who served in the military, but the addulation don't last long if the vet cannot acclimate to ordinary society. 

am understanding cop phobia. lord do we understand. am thinking the fear is reasonable 'cause you cannot know if the cop you are dealing with is one o' the hopeless flawed and busted. best to assume you are in danger from cops.

assume danger is different than believe as does malc and vol... by now one would assume folks might at least reflect on their position if they sudden find vol is agreeing with 'em. vol ain't always wrong, but lumped together with him is not an enviable place to be.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Malcador]

Well a lot of the "friendly" things a cop will do is because they are paid to do so.  The statement they are not your friend is like the statement about HR - they are there to protect the company, not you.  Doesn't mean other party is demonised by saying so, just helps to keep the relationship clear in your head.   

[Gromnir]

11 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well a lot of the "friendly" things a cop will do is because they are paid to do so.     

pointing out cops ain't friends 'cause o' the fact they is bringers o' misfortune, but when confronted with the reality o' help they provide and you dismiss as them being mercenary. if you cannot admit the manifest unfairness, then we are at an impasse.

cops is no more or less likely to be your friends than people in any other profession, well, unless you are a drug dealer or purveyor o' kiddie pr0n, or some other kinda criminal who is likely to be on the wrong side o' cops too often to foster friendships.

recognize the potential harm a bad cop may deliver 'pon you w/o justification is reasonable, but stereotype the armed and oakley wearing cops is just the kinda thing vol does with antifa and blm. don't be that guy. you can be better than vol. 

while Gromnir were working as a prosecutor (brief moment in our career) we got to know more than a few cops both state and fed. numerous salt-of-the-earth quality folks. one such cop we knew happened to see us at a hospital. were our day off but she were working. she couldn't help but notice our backpack were moving and commented on such a curiosity. our sister were in the hospital and we were sneaking her dog in for a visit. this woman cop kinda rolled her eyes but from that point on, every few weeks, she would find an excuse to stop by and greet us at work. she would present us with a small stuffed animal and ask us to pass it along to our sister in lieu o' bringing her dog to the hospital.  

paul just wanted to sit on his porch and drink cheap wine... stare at sunset or stars or whatever. we always referred to cops by last name, except for paul. paul wanted out of the field and were looking forward to being a desk jockey. serious. he wanted nothing more than an eventless 20 years behind a desk after which he could be a full-time porch guy and wine drinker. reminded us o' mr. rogers-- he were not soft, but he were the most mild and even-tempered person you were ever gonna meet. mr. rogers in BDU.

etc.

such folks weren't exceptions.

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

https://www.facebook.com/darren.hise1/videos/3540788322646892/?t=2

BLM strikes again!

 

And, cops rarely save someone's life who calls 911 because often times they get there and the crime is already over. Not their fault but still. 

If you encounter a cop, you have to treat them like an armed gang member. Either do EVERYTHING they say no matter how evil or wrong it is, or prepare to assaulted or killed. Because, cops will readily murder you over jaywalking. Or counterfeit bills. Or not wearing a mask.  Or 'disprecting' a fellow gang memer. Or looking at them funny. 

 

 

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

pointing out cops ain't friends 'cause o' the fact they is bringers o' misfortune, but when confronted with the reality o' help they provide and you dismiss as them being mercenary. if you cannot admit the manifest unfairness, then we are at an impasse.

cops is no more or less likely to be your friends than people in any other profession, well, unless you are a drug dealer or purveyor o' kiddie pr0n, or some other kinda criminal who is likely to be on the wrong side o' cops too often to foster friendships.

I disagree it is unfair to not extol them for good deeds when that is literally what their job is, and you assume the best of the cop if you think that blocks to "friendship" is solely on the side of the public. Most of the cops I know really give off the vibe of the quote from Blade Runner where "if you're not cop, you're little people", if we're relying on anecdotes, and I have plenty of experience of my cop neighbour exhibiting small **** syndrome.

As I stated though, them not being your friends doesn't mean they are evil or something, otherwise every person you've never met would be so.  Volo's  not far off the mark when he says you treat them like a gang member or a wild dog I'd say, just avoid them if possible, don't piss them off if you have to interact with them. 

[Gromnir]

33 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I disagree it is unfair to not extol them for good deeds when that is literally what their job is, and you assume the best of the cop if you think that blocks to "friendship" is solely on the side of the public.

you will generalize ill will 'cross cop population in, but 'cause they is paid to be helpful it is literal impossible for them to prove generosity or compassion. you do not recognize such manifest unfairness?

*shrug*

we already pointed out how is best to treat cops with caution 'cause you don't know if they is broken. given the degree o' harm they can cause, is best to be cautious. however, statements like following makes your naked bias kinda obvious, no?

6 hours ago, Malcador said:

Never understood why anyone would think some armed, shaven headed dude with Oakleys would ever be so.

rationalize if it makes you feels better.

that said, when you face many o' life's worst crises, the folks you will count on for loyalty and aid is gonna be people such as doctors and lawyers and, yes, cops. perhaps such compulsory friendship ain't something to be scorned.

doctors are not your friends. never understood why anyone would think some arrogant, know-it all in scrubs would ever be so.  

sounds ungrateful and a bit trollish, no? 

that said, if you is a suspect, then no, cops are not your friends, regardless o' their fashion choices or tonsorial habits.  

HA! Good Fun!

ps you should realize your anecdote is less than helpful as you are the one generalizing. Gromnir is pointing out how cops is people, individual people. you point out how there is also bad cops is repeating what we already conceded. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

16 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

we already pointed out how is best to treat cops with caution 'cause you don't know if they is broken. given the degree o' harm they can cause, is best to be cautious.

And that is why they are not your friends.  If they were, you wouldn't have to worry about that.  And was being a bit flippant about the appearance, but the kind of cop that goes around with the wannabe soldier aesthetic, usually isn't all that good a cop, I've found.  Very enlightening hanging around cop forums, well or depressing, depending on how you look at it.

In any event, only thing harmed by someone assuming all cops are **** is, what,  the cops' feelings getting hurt ?

Edited July 25, 2020 by Malcador

[Volourn]

"doctors are not your friends. never understood why anyone would think some arrogant, know-it all in scrubs would ever be so.  

sounds ungrateful and a bit trollish, no? "

 

Doctors aren't paid by the government to terrororize and hunt people down.

And, when a doctor does do something awful, you don't usually have a gang of doctors backing them up.

I've seen you make posts telling people that when they interact with cops that they should simply do what the cops say - even if what the cops are doing/telling you is illegal - then report them afterwards.

Certainly don't see lawyers or anyone tell patients to do whatever a doctor tells them to do then worry about it afterwards. If a doctor says/.does something off,, you can simply walk away. You can't do that with cops or they will  jump you. PERIOD.

The fact you tried to compare doctors to cops is HILARIOUS.

It is like claiming BLM is anti racism when everything they stand for is racism. LMAO

[Orogun01]

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

if you are concerned with keeping people safe, the obvious solution is to put additional firearms into the hands of scared and angry people. 

...

wait, that makes no sense at all.

also, am thinking gd is using "polite" wrong.

How The U.S. Compares With The Lowest Rates Of Violent Gun Deaths Worldwide
Violent gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2017

 

Is that a per capita comparison or total?  Because the US has a way larger population that some of those countries; also the narrowness of GUN deaths. How about we count violent deaths, China has no guns but knife killing sprees in schools and hospitals seem to be a problem over there. One saying in the gun community, if you give up liberty in order to gain safety you deserve neither. By your order of thought, we shouldn't drive cars because of bad car drivers.

[Gromnir]

you are asking if 4.43 is the total number o' 2017 violent gun deaths in the US?

...

and you realize how many car safety measures and laws there is... how many improvements is made to car safety every year? need acquire a driver's license after passing a skills and knowledge test. no driving over 55 mph on highways or over 25 near schools. need wear a seat belt.  if one kinda automobile were thousand o' times more likely to result in death than others classes o' autos, would we simple shrug our shoulders and blame drivers... bad drivers kill people, not bad cars?

for chrissakes, we got more limits on fireworks than firearms. for near 100 years US firearms prohibitions were unnecessary 'cause the gunpowder ownership and storage were restricted often to a draconian degree. in 2020 we got many laws restricting fireworks, 'cause gunpowder is dangerous... some kid could lose an eye. anybody see the disconnect? 

oh, and while should be obvious, firearms is a single purpose tool. guns is designed to kill or cause serious bodily injury. 

we got the second amendment. period. can't do laws for firearms same as cars or fireworks. nevertheless, is ridiculous to compare cars and guns, and the relative dangers they present. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

Quote

Is that a per capita comparison or total?

"Violent gun deaths per 100k people in 2017" so it's definitely a rate. Might be some wiggle room on what exactly 'violence' entails- but it is homicide only.

For violent deaths (homicides) the US has a rate of 4.8/100k so around 0.4 'extra' non gun related deaths. China has 0.5 'extra' deaths, so they're pretty comparable.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Orogun01]

15 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

you are asking if 4.43 is the total number o' 2017 violent gun deaths in the US?

...

and you realize how many car safety measures and laws there is... how many improvements is made to car safety every year? need acquire a driver's license after passing a skills and knowledge test. no driving over 55 mph on highways or over 25 near schools. need wear a seat belt.  if one kinda automobile were thousand o' times more likely to result in death than others classes o' autos, would we simple shrug our shoulders and blame drivers... bad drivers kill people, not bad cars?

for chrissakes, we got more limits on fireworks than firearms. for near 100 years US firearms prohibitions were unnecessary 'cause the gunpowder ownership and storage were restricted often to a draconian degree. in 2020 we got many laws restricting fireworks, 'cause gunpowder is dangerous... some kid could lose an eye. anybody see the disconnect? 

oh, and while should be obvious, firearms is a single purpose tool. guns is designed to kill or cause serious bodily injury. 

we got the second amendment. period. can't do laws for firearms same as cars or fireworks. nevertheless, is ridiculous to compare cars and guns, and the relative dangers they present. 

HA! Good Fun!

There isn't an anti-car lobby that makes acquiring licenses nearly impossible, some of the more liberal, cosmopolitan states have incredibly heavy restrictions on acquiring guns and what kind of guns you can have. There are also a serious number of laws involving the storage and safe carriage of guns with some states requiring a conceal license and forbidding open carry.
Gunpower laws were required as it was a public hazard because improper storage could lead to fires. We have cartridges nowadays so it is no longer an issue.
It is not a ridiculous comparison as it reveals the attitudes we have towards car ownership and gun ownership. Despite many people driving by car crashes, encountering bad drivers and having near crashes every day there isn't a call for car reform or to restrict car speeds, I mean does anyone really need to go over 75 mph? But if some white kid in a white neighborhood shoots up a school one day out of the year everyone wants guns banned. I bring the race issue because all throughout the 90's gun in schools was an issue with inner city and low income schools, so much that they had metal detectors in schools. Yet it became politicized only after Columbine.

[Hurlshort]

I know about a dozen cops, and I rarely even remember they are police when we are hanging out. They are just normal people. Except for the former marine turned Sheriff. He's a bit intense.