Weird - Random - Interesting

[Gfted1]

Because they sound like made up nonsense.

US troops knew Al-Asad air base would be attacked and sheltered in bunkers.

Yet somehow 110 troop (and growing) got all ate up with TBI. Nobody else and no actual observable injuries. Only TBI.

[Skazz]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm just trying to figure out if I'm the literally retarded one. I guess if I knew, I wouldn't be, but if I don't than I am? What a puzzle! 

I gather that the colonoscopy was taken well.

[Amentep]

40 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Because they sound like made up nonsense.

US troops knew Al-Asad air base would be attacked and sheltered in bunkers.

Yet somehow 110 troop (and growing) got all ate up with TBI. Nobody else and no actual observable injuries. Only TBI.

You may be right, but in a day and age where everyone is concerned over CTE, I could see them over diagnosing it without their being some conspiracy(?) behind it.  And it could be legit, you get 110 concussions just from having a Keystone Kop style mass panic where everybody runs trying to get to a safe place (which is a worrying idea by itself).

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

You may be right, but in a day and age where everyone is concerned over CTE, I could see them over diagnosing it without their being some conspiracy(?) behind it.  And it could be legit, you get 110 concussions just from having a Keystone Kop style mass panic where everybody runs trying to get to a safe place (which is a worrying idea by itself).

no mystery.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/middleeast/iran-strike-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html

the bunkers troops sheltered in were not designed to protect human beings from the missile attack from iran. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps 

the bunkers being wrong for task is not new news, however, we did notice info from today for anybody genuine interested in actual reading.

Department of Defense Informational Session on Traumatic Brain Injury

"We recognized this beginning early in the current conflicts and began working with the Veterans Administration, as well as with the NCAA, the NFL and other stakeholders to develop a series of screening measures, which we've updated over the years, and we're able to use very effectively during this event.

"In this particular event, the nature of the munitions was different than what I experienced at Balad or in other locations.

"So if you're familiar – and many of you have been down-range over the last 15 or 20 years – you know, we had small munitions; we had small rockets that would hit bases. Balad used to be called "Mortaritaville." There’d be the frequent attacks on the base.

"And they were obviously dangerous, but very different than what happened at Al Asad, when theater ballistic missiles landed.

"Why is that important?

"The magnitude, or the size of the munition, certainly creates a different exposure for the service members who are in the area of the blast. And that's something that I'll come back to several times in my comments here."

...

"And then the other mandatory reporting criteria are "a direct blow to the head," which in this case didn't happen, fortunately, and somewhat surprisingly, given the magnitude of the attack."

...

"And if you're 18 or 19 or 20 years old, even though we've trained everybody who deploys down-range on what to look for, it's quite common that we'll have folks who will say, you know, 'I just was blasted; of course I'm not going to feel quite right, I'm going to ride this out for a few days,' or 'I'm going to wait and see if this gets better.' And then they come in, several days or weeks after the fact."

...

"BRIG. GEN. FRIEDRICHS: Yes.

"Q: Okay. That's the clarification.

"And then can you talk a little bit about either, you know, the – the physics of the – of how the physics of the ballistic missile impact, you know, medically or biologically impact differently? You know, why this attack – any more details in why this attack, the ballistic missile strikes would have been different from the rocket or mortar attacks that you were citing as, you know, the common occurrences (inaudible) –

"BRIG. GEN. FRIEDRICHS: Yeah, it's the size of the munition. It – you know, it's just the –

"Q: What does that do to the brain specifically? Can you just talk about that?

"BRIG. GEN. FRIEDRICHS: So if – I'll – I'm going to try using an analogy which may be helpful. You know, firecrackers on the Fourth of July – you've got a small firecracker that has a small blast, goes off for a short period of time; much larger firecracker, larger blast, goes off for a longer period of time. The larger munition – the larger the munition, the larger the blast that's created, the more effect there will be on the human body. And the brain is, you know, an extraordinary part of our body and it's – our body is designed to protect the brain quite a bit. It sits inside the skull. It is surrounded by fluid to help cushion it as you're moving. It – if you have a large blast, that larger blast will have a greater impact on the brain than a smaller blast will, and that's the point that I was trying to make.

"Q: But what does it do to the brain? Could you just spell it out so we can convey that to our – our readers?

"BRIG. GEN. FRIEDRICHS: Yeah, so it can do a variety of things. The most obvious one is if it actually causes an immediate bruise to the brain itself, and, you know, sometimes that can cause bleeding within the skull, or an – an injury that usually is going to be readily apparent. Other times, it can cause injury at the microscopic level, not as readily apparent, where individual nerves are damaged or torn, sometimes called shearing. And if you can picture a nerve that kind of gets pulled by the blast effect, that's something that is harder to see on imaging studies and – but still, a very real damage within the individual nerves that are damaged there, going forward.

"So it can be the spectrum of injury, from individual nerves being damaged to larger areas of the brain being damaged. In this case, we really did not see people with significant injuries where large areas of the brain were damaged, which I think, you know, again, is good news. It – it shows that as we've improved our protective equipment over time, it is much more effective than what was available in years past, especially with a blast like this.

"But, some of this injury is not going to be readily apparent until you get down to the microscopic level and can see it there, and that's why these evaluations and things like MRIs are – are very valuable."

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

Knowing they were coming short term was irrelevant to how well the bunkers worked- it's like the question as to why there weren't Patriots at the base to protect it; they weren't there because a week previous no one expected a ballistic missile attack, they only expected the odd katyusha or mortar class round.

The bunkers were built with the thought that the largest munition they'd have to defend against was maybe a few tens of kgs of explosive (like the typical grad's ~20kg warhead), not multiple hundreds of kgs like a typical ballistic missile carries, because the risk factor was insurgent attacks not a state actor attack. It's both difficult and expensive to build defences against 600kg of TNT equivalent even if it isn't traveling faster than the speed of sound. There's at least one video of the attack shot by US servicemen (or civilian contractors) and the shelters are basically medium walled but open air with a reinforced roof. TBIs came from the blast wave, not direct impact effects, and those bunkers provide pretty basic blast wave protection because a katyusha or mortar doesn't have much of a blast wave to protect from, their main problem is direct impact or semi direct effect (shrapnel). The shelters are fine for both of those, but not for an explosion 30x larger. You can also see that a lot of the people sheltering are, understandably but foolishly, watching the explosions instead of actually sheltering and that exposes their heads to the blastwave...

[Gromnir]

we will admit there were info we were previous unaware o' from the briefing. for instance, we had no idea the military were working with ncaa and nfl, but it makes sense in retrospect. 

regardless, as already noted, the fact the bunkers were saddam era structures not designed to withstand the iran ballistic missile attacks such as were directed at al-asad is not new news. the cnn article we linked is from january 14, 202 after all. that is less than a week following the attacks and contemporaneous with increasing reports o' tbi 'mongst personnel at the air base. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, IIRC the US does have prefab 'bomb shelters' that can assembled in hours but won't use them if the available facilities are checked out as OK. I'd presume they decided that the Al Assad facilities were fine for the expected engagements and from what I saw that was not an unreasonable assumption given the expectations were for grads and mortars.

If they wanted to build ballistic missile class shelters it would take weeks and cost a lot of money. They'd need major earth moving and a lot of concrete and reinforcing. And a direct hit would probably still make a mess of them.

[Amentep]

Interesting reading; I thought, joking aside, it might be tied to size of the weapons, but hadn't read about the buildings as an issue.

[Gfted1]

[media=

[Gromnir]

an equally relevant picture, but more adorable.

The Invisible War on the Brain

lack o' comprehension from reader does not equal mislead or lie from media.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

Random internet loudmouth vs actual pictures of bunkers. Hmm, whats more accurate.

[Gromnir]

is amazing how a person will further illustrate their ignorance w/o realizing. properties o' waves is obvious a mystery to some. we suggest actual reading linked articles to discover how the concrete walls o' a bunker may remain standing while brain o' person inside could become horrible scrambled.

edit: 

am referencing the defense briefing when we observe what were most interesting to us were not what some is fixated 'pon (how could people inside bunkers not reduced to rubble suffer tbi) but rather the military awareness o' tbi and their confidence in their screening methods.

were specific observed by military brass, too much data still needed to be collected to determine what countermeasures woulda' been appropriate and/or acceptable. ideally, blast pressure sensors woulda' been in place and accurate counts o' persons in each bunker woulda' been taken, 'cause depending on density o' people in a bunker, blast effect is gonna be different regardless o' measured pressure. not enough data.

nevertheless, is noteworthy how in spite o' obstacles mentioned previous insofar as having folks be screened for tbi, the military is expressing confidence in the screening measures they have in place. given how difficult it has been for organizations such as ncaa and nfl to be confident 'bout their screening, am somewhat surprised the military were able to express so much confidence.  although admitted, one o' the bigger problems for ncaa and nfl is the subjects o' evaluations lie in an attempt to get back on the field asap, which is gonna be less consistent a problem in a situation such as al-asad.

HA! Good Fun! 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Gromnir

[ShadySands]

I've been to Al Asad several times but it was quite a while ago and things may have changed a lot and it like most places I've been in Iraq wasn't fortified against real deal heavy munitions. As was previously mentioned those just weren't the weapons that we were ever supposed to be defending against. IIRC the base did have some heavy duty bunkers being used for various different things but I may be misremembering as Al Taqaddum had them and as I said , it was a while ago.

[Gfted1]

Alrighty then, so where are we today? Weve decided that the shock wave produced by a 650kg warhead can penetrate an underground, concrete reinforced, bunker and strike with unerring precision to US troops craniums, while also producing no visible damage to the bunkers, or anything inside the bunkers, and no other physical traces of overpressure damage to the personnel inside. Or perhaps the shock wave came down the bunker hallway and bypassed the front door, prolly through the mail slot or peephole. Sounds about par for this course.   

What I cant get out of my mind is the hundreds (thousands(?) of poor Iraqi troops that didnt make it into a bunker. Were they all chunked? Or vaporized? Im going with chunked.

[Amentep]

Structures can amplify the effects of forces.  For example, the difference in the effect of hitting a metal bucket vs a plastic one with the quality of the sound produced, and then the difference if the bucket is on the ground or in the air.  I don't know that happened here, to be fair, but it doesn't seem to be in the realm of impossibility that the structures might have made the problem worse by transmitting the force waves into the bunker through the structure (like the difference between having the metal bucket vs plastic bucket over your head while being hit - you'd most likely want the plastic one as it has less potential to reverberate the sound).

I would be curious to know the effect the missile strikes had on Iraqi troops, though.

[Gfted1]

With nary a ruptured eardrum or detached retina! Its truly miraculous, but Ill leave that to our resident shock wave experts. Its a terrifyingly precise capability that reminds me of the "sonic weapon" the anti-anti-anti revolutionary police are using in Cuba to tard up our diplomats.

[Hurlshort]

https://www.specialolympics.org/discriminatory-language-about-people-with-intellectual-disabilities-particularly-the-r-word-remains-prevalent-across-social-media

[Malcador]

13 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

https://www.specialolympics.org/discriminatory-language-about-people-with-intellectual-disabilities-particularly-the-r-word-remains-prevalent-across-social-media

Given most people on social media act like they are intellectually disabled, that's not that surprise.   Happens when kids don't get the edgelord slapped out of them.

[Gfted1]

23 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm just trying to figure out if I'm the literally retarded one. I guess if I knew, I wouldn't be, but if I don't than I am? What a puzzle! 

 

22 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

https://www.specialolympics.org/discriminatory-language-about-people-with-intellectual-disabilities-particularly-the-r-word-remains-prevalent-across-social-media

You keep teeing them up and Ill keep cranking them out of the park!

[Hurlshort]

48 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

 

You keep teeing them up and Ill keep cranking them out of the park!

I have no idea what that means.

[Gfted1]

You dont have to say that for every post, its already implied and expected.

[Malcador]

6 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I have no idea what that means.

Is some reference to that laughable excuse for a sport called "baseball" I think...

[Hurlshort]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

You dont have to say that for every post, its already implied and expected.

You've called me literally retarded and insulted me repeatedly. What are you gaining from these attacks? 

[Gfted1]

Whaaa? Your only responses in the last few pages are; "nobody understands", says the word retard then complains about it, and again "I dont understand". We all get it, you dont understand anything. What more do you want me to say other than you dont have to type that out for every single one of my posts?

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

 We all get it, you dont understand anything.

This is rich.