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Amentep

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54 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

It's the right way to do education... just make sure your charges know the real world will be MUCH less forgiving!

It is and it isn't. In the real world, you don't really take quizzes where you are expected to memorize a bunch of facts on literature. Stakes are higher, of course, but the fous in the real world tends to be on how you process and problem solve then how much information you've retained.

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29 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Can you re-take the bar exam as many times as you need to pass?

sure, but you need also graduate law school. for a long time, there were a single state exception to the law school requirement: louisiana. no longer an exception. so sure, you can go to Princeton and fail and is possible to then go to university o' virginia, and fail. don't give up and instead go to university of buffalo and fail and final apply and get accepted to american samoa law... which don't actual exist btw.

we were talking 'bout teaching and school, yes?  

13 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

Ideally, the doctor doesn't get out of medical school until they demonstrates the ability to perform the surgeey successful. They can probably spend as many years and as much money trying to pass as they want.

this were all in response to a teacher allowing multiple tests takings. am suspecting there might be a law school somewheres which allows a student to re-do ad nauseum, but is not gonna be an aba accredited school, which is gonna at least initial make you presumed goal o' working as an attorney far less likely. teach a kid endless redo is an option is not practical rl experience and it sure as heck don't prepare you for any advanced degree work we ever hear o' neither; not gonna get through law school that way and not grad school for sure.

the bar exam? sure. one extra body in a huge room o' sweating and nervous humanity requires no resources to make available another opportunity to charge test fees. is no Teaching involved in the bar exam save self-teach.

brings to mind a singular example. we knew the story o' a guy who were a vietnam vet and he literal had brain damage. not dribble cup brain damage, but he had difficulty with certain aspects o' cognition.  the guy took the ca bar every year, twice a year, for something like eight years. eventual a veterans group, after veteran's story made local tv news, cobbled together money and came up with specialized tutoring, and the guy failed again, but he did eventual pass the bar.  the thing is, the veteran never did law school as he took an extreme unlikely apprenticeship route which is even more difficult today than it were in the 70s. 

regardless, am not thinking that existence o' an exceptional example somehow proves your point. gonna actual defend the redo test scheme by pointing out it is possible to spend years retaking bar exam or medical boards? need retake test multiple times would seem to be proof that somewhere along the line the educational process failed. if point to graduate law school or med school is to, in part, prepare you to pass bar exam and/or boards, then need retake such tests over and over is just proof the teaching model failed. btw, pretty much every law school posts their first time bar passage rate compared to statewide bar passage rate, 'cause such is deemed an important measure o' relative value o' the education provided. 

as to your most recent comment, am gonna note how dismissive we were earlier o' the mindless knowledge tests which demand the student regurgitate data or proper identify facts, as if such is somehow meaningful. redo such tests is even more pointless as is zero chance the student proves learning by redo. the bar exam, for example, is not testing knowledge o' facts. even the multi-state multiple choice portion does not simple ask what is the rule of law in dumpor's case. instead there will be a unique question the examinee has likely never considered specific which involves successive assignments by leaseholder and if examinee understands the rule in dumpor's, they should be able to pick the correct answer from the provided list o' options. 

nevertheless, am understanding hurl don't have a choice. current models and requirements means that he needs cover multiple significant events, people and conflicts during a relative short period o' time, and state exams will then test to make certain his students were actual exposed to all that nonsense which any kid who knows how to access google may self-teach if hurl has provide more important learning skills. am personal amazed so many trained educators nevertheless embrace the current models.

hurl teaches middle school, yes?  why not take a semester and teach protestant reformation or post civil war reconstruction. nothing else. go deep rather than broad and make certain kids know how to do research and real analysis and critical thinking. teach kids how to read critical and then write persuasive. every kid already knows how to use internet to discover facts, so teach 'em facts is a waste o' effort in our mind. should be teaching kids skills and how to learn. but again, am understanding hurl don't have autonomy. nevertheless, am baffled by current goals o' teaching; even if we is told how important is critical thinking and problem solving, is clear such stuff is not a priority on those standardized tests which measure student/teaching success.

HA! Good Fun!

ps am not knowing what happened to the vietnam vet after he became a lawyer. our understanding is he went to work for a firm and were successful practicing for at least a few years, but the feel good story were pretty much completed with the eventual bar passage by a guy who had been severe injured in vietnam and nevertheless persevered in spite o' improbable obstacles. 

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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45 minutes ago, Amentep said:

These rules depends on the state, iirc.

 

including territories, is approx three dozen locales where a person may take as many times as need w/o restriction, so based on hurl's curious approach, the prospective attorney may simple go to california or new york if they fail too many times in arizona. 'course again, to take the bar exam in california if one original went to school in arizona would mean the prospective lawyer attended an aba accredited school as 'posed to state accredited or some other state-specific exception. 

ca also has one o' the more rigorous bar exams with the lowest passage rate in the US, but is actual more forgiving than it once were. for many years and throughout the 90s, were a three-day test (+7 hour days) but as bar passage rates slipped past 50%, changes were made and one day were removed so is now only a two-day kick in the teeth as 'posed to a three-day triathlon: essay question; performance test; multi-state multiple choice. multi-state has stayed same, but the essay and performance test has been effective halved. 

am not certain why ca were so wedded to three days for so long. were as much an endurance test as anything. we took two other bar exams and am not sure which were graded more difficult or were more difficult to pass (you only know your score if you fail,) but the ca testing were most memorable 'cause o' the fatigue at the end o' day three.

HA! Good Fun!

ps if you pass the bar first time you may become a bar exam test grader. stoopid. get paid based on number of tests graded. time spent reading and grading an hour-long essay is a matter o' a few minutes. therefore, the people grading is not spending any time delving for answers. most important thing an examinee can do is to make their written responses simple and clear. do not expect to be coddled.

pps (apologies) oh... fudge. just checked and last few years has seen precipitous ca bar passage rate drops. the students ca teachers is preparing is becoming less and less capable o' basic foundational stuff 'cause february 2020 ca bar passage rate were 26.8%. regardless, has been steady decline in spite o' fact, as we noted, test were made easier.

Edited by Gromnir
ps

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I should also note that it isn't feasible or desirable to have a kid re-take a quiz ad nauseam either. At some point it should be obvious that there is something that needs to be adjusted with the test or the student. As I've said before, the number one goal of an educator should not be to push content, it should be to help develop skills and strategies for long term success. I know I've linked bloom's taxonomy before and it is still a basic tenet of any teaching credentialing program: 

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So back to content, it is true that I have way too much to cover in 7th grade Social Science, but it also isn't like I teach each unit in a vacuum. The protestant reformation isn't just a 1-week unit. it is an underlying element in the fall of Rome, the rise of the church, the crusades, etc. If I am good at my job, then hopefully students are making connections throughout and relating it to the world they currently live in. I made a terrible comic about this one time when I had to take an adobe photoshop class for professional development.

2010-07-20-Rugrats.GIF?attachauth=ANoY7c

Standardized tests are stupid and have been overhauled quite a bit over the last couple years. 

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5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

ca also has one o' the more rigorous bar exams with the lowest passage rate in the US, but is actual more forgiving than it once were. for many years and throughout the 90s, were a three-day test (+7 hour days) but as bar passage rates slipped past 50%, changes were made and one day were removed so is now only a two-day kick in the teeth as 'posed to a three-day triathlon: essay question; performance test; multi-state multiple choice. multi-state has stayed same, but the essay and performance test has been effective halved. 

There are multiple tests for doctors - the one that they take, i think during residency is in 3 parts. One is 7 hours, the other two are 18 hours each (spread out over two days each) if i recall correctly. There are some pretty intense tests out there.

2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I should also note that it isn't feasible or desirable to have a kid re-take a quiz ad nauseam either.

At some point, you stop testing the student on whatever the test is about, and testing their memory of the test. Thats why most tests have retest windows that space out testing.

2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

Standardized tests are stupid and have been overhauled quite a bit over the last couple years. 

The problem with standardized tests is less that they're stupid and more that they're used for purpose other than they are intended, and used as solitary measures and gatekeepers.

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I'm not sure if the profoundly radical nature of Bruce and Clarence kissing on the lips as a nightly public ritual has ever been truly processed and appreciated... by American popular culture at large. There are a lot of bands considered really subversive who never did anything remotely approaching it, and Bruce and Clarence were doing it at the very pinnacle of American celebrity.

The layers of transgressiveness - against racism, against homophobia, and, importantly, against a narrow definition of romance and intimacy, from two straight men who talked about being in love with each other - go very deep. It mattered then, and matters now

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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4 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I should also note that it isn't feasible or desirable to have a kid re-take a quiz ad nauseam either. At some point it should be obvious that there is something that needs to be adjusted with the test or the student. As I've said before, the number one goal of an educator should not be to push content, it should be to help develop skills and strategies for long term success.

am familiar with bloom but am also aware o' the school administration and state preoccupation with standardized tests which, regardless o' your colorful and balanced pie, overwhelming stresses knowledge for subjects such as history. your state measures success o' history teachings by measuring the knowledge o' students, and history teachers is functional judged based on the success o' students on such tests. maybe hurl yells, "damn the torpedoes," as he rushes ahead with his own teaching approach, but is hard to imagine such a focus on knowledge fails to impact most educators. is other states radical different?  

and it don't appear to be functional different for english or other skill focused subjects. maybe tell us 'bout modalities as well? use music to teach english is kewl, but there appears to be a disconnect between what hurl is saying is being taught and the preparedness o' students to actual achieve in higher education and real world. stress again how important is skills and critical thinking to you and other teachers, but university 1a classes is filled with kids who cannot write and the bar exam is increasing being failed 'cause there is a gap in education somewhere, and like it or not, law school education changes very little.

Most colleges enroll students who aren’t prepared for higher education

ca public universities (community college and csu at least) fixed their remedial learners problem by no longer forcing students to take remedial classes. 'course now csu professors need coddle students 'cause those students weren't educated in high school. am not sure how such is a solution.

https://edsource.org/2018/cal-state-starts-new-era-ending-no-credit-remedial-classes/604470

...

we are sending too many kids to university. a college degree is not a golden ticket and should not be viewed as some kinda proof o' worth. utter bs. the thing is, am thinking it is a mistake to continue to lower the bar as a solution when we see students failing. is bass ackwards and doesn't mesh with real world demands.

test is too hard, so solution is to change test or let student retest? is not just old guy syndrome which drives our concern. Gromnir did it a certain way, so everybody else needs suffer? no. dumb. as we said, am ok with 5th graders getting the touchy-feely approach, but eventual the students gotta be taught not only subject matter, but survival skills. law school classes, ordinary, got two grading opportunities: midterm and final. that's it. no homework and is only a few classes which have essay/paper requirements. you got two chances to get it right in a law school class and the mid-term counts far less than the final. am ok with such harshness 'cause real world lawyering is even less forgiving, unless your dad or mom has their name on the door o' the firm. 

@Amentep sounds like you are describing the US medical licensing exam, which strict speaking ain't residency. regardless, is having a +95% first-time passage rate. your time frames is misleading 'cause is actual such an overabundance o' time to complete as 'posed to a race 'gainst the clock. 'ccording to doctors we speak to, the tough exams as part o' their education is med school, but again, am less familiar with testing n' such o' residency if only 'cause doctors we know don't mention such stuff much if at all.

HA! Good Fun!

ps california bar exam is only offered 2x a year, so kinda apples and oranges regardless.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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8 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

 

@Amentep sounds like you are describing the US medical licensing exam, which strict speaking ain't residency. regardless, is having a +95% first-time passage rate. your time frames is misleading 'cause is actual such an overabundance o' time to complete as 'posed to a race 'gainst the clock. 'ccording to doctors we speak to, the tough exams as part o' their education is med school, but again, am less familiar with testing n' such o' residency if only 'cause doctors we know don't mention such stuff much if at all.

HA! Good Fun!

ps california bar exam is only offered 2x a year, so kinda apples and oranges regardless.

yeah, i was thinking of the USMLE STEP exams. I may have the timing off, it's one we give but I spend less time with the examinees so not an expert. I was under the impression it was taken during the end of residency.  I know there are some other exams within doctors pathways, one prior to STEP and some specialty exams for specializations at least.

We're not connected with the state's bar, but we have a few once a year exams we do, and a couple that are offered for a few weeks every so often.

 

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Ouch.

UCF - Broken cable damages Arecibo Observatory

WEBAreciboDishDamage.jpg

 

One of the auxiliary cables that helps support a metal platform in place above the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico, broke on Monday (Aug. 10) causing a 100-foot-long gash on the telescope’s reflector dish. Operations at the UCF-managed observatory are stopped until repairs can be made.

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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I am tempted to put this under "funny things", but still....

The Guardian - According to Brian Blessed, The Queen said that Flash Gordon is one of her favourite films

The star of camp sci-fi classic claims the monarch told him she watches it with her grandchildren every Christmas, and asked the actor to recite dialogue

“Everywhere I go, they all want me to say ‘Gordon’s alive!’,” said Blessed. “The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, horses and queens, and prime ministers, they all want me to say ‘Gordon’s alive!’, it’s their favourite film.”

He continued: “The Queen, it’s her favourite film, she watches it with her grandchildren every Christmas.”

The actor then assumed the Queen’s accent, quoting her as saying: “You know, we watch Flash Gordon all the time, me and the grandchildren. And if you don’t mind, I’ve got the grandchildren here, would you mind saying ‘Gordon’s alive’?”

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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When someone tries making a Space Marine look somewhat human proportional....

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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WSLS - "I couldn't resist" ; Actor Dennis Quaid is adopting a Lynchburg shelter cat named Dennis Quaid

 

Last week, we introduced you to a cat named Dennis Quaid at the Lynchburg Humane Society in need of a forever home, as part of our Clear the Shelters initiative.

This weekend, he will make his journey to that home, but you may not believe who’s adopting him.

“It was really off the wall, but I just couldn’t resist. I had to,” said Dennis Quaid.

Quaid couldn’t pass up adopting the little guy with his name from the Lynchburg Humane Society.

“I’m out to save all the Dennis Quaids of the world,” said Quaid.

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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I mean, it looks "nice" in concept, but there's so many potential failure points on this...

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Edited by Raithe

"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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Tired of the People in Your Family? Some Are Teaching Their Dogs to Talk

Sunny Smiles is a sweet dog. But she is dumber than a bag of hammers. Even by dog standards. Not sure I'd want to hear what she has to say.

Besides, it is very easy to learn to "talk" to dogs on their level. You don't need to make them do it on yours. 

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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9 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Tired of the People in Your Family? Some Are Teaching Their Dogs to Talk

Sunny Smiles is a sweet dog. But she is dumber than a bag of hammers. Even by dog standards. Not sure I'd want to hear what she has to say.

Besides, it is very easy to learn to "talk" to dogs on their level. You don't need to make them do it on yours. 

have had a few smart dogs, but smart is relative. beyond rabbits, deer, play time and dinner, am certain the smartest o' our border collies had little interest in topics which might make us curious. am satisfied our dialogues with canines will remain, for all practical purposes, monologues followed by dogie displays o' pleasure or guilt or whatever is appropriate.

the thing is, in spite o' our certainty we would be underwhelmed by whatever ideas our dogs have on a whole host o' topics, we do wish they would be better at communicating the nature and degree o' their infrequent discomfort. when our pups is feeling unwell, they may not show it in overt ways, and even when we do notice, the dogs is not forthcoming with useful details. perhaps the little black dog is noticeable less enthusiastic than normal and does not wish to play as is his normal waking state. when we ask him what is wrong, he gives nothing. unhelpful.

we would pay a fair amount for a mechanical device which would translate dog-to-english. could tell us it is his stomach which aches, or perhaps his head. feeling cold? feeling hot? any particular food would make him feel better? do we need go to the vet... well, am knowing the answer to that one would be "no," even if he had a massive wound and his intestines were literal spilling out on the faux-wood laminate we got in the hallway adjacent to the kitchen.

*shrug*

am interested not at all in the musing o' our canines, but we do wish they could talk just so they could tell us what, if anything, is wrong.

*shrug*

only bring up 'cause far too often we has wished our dogs could talk when they is not well. downside is am knowing if we could understand 'em better, we would need listen to incessant drivel 'bout snacks and itches and toys and... whatever. is why am wanting a mechanical translator-- so we could turn it off 99.99% o' the time.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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116878445_294464681775083_60960325480360

 

Thats easy... 49'ers, Giants, Redskins

My 18 year old self would be sharp enough to know what to do with that!

Edited by Guard Dog

"What can't be changed must be endured"

Robert Jordan

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