Part 1: Jedi or Pathological Killer?

[Maria Caliban]

This thread was originally a simple suggestion for a new combat feature but it grew into a long, rambling post about the light and dark sides. I've split it into parts for easier absorption and will post part 2 in a few days.

 

Part 1: Jedi or Pathological Killer?

 

On of the things that have always irked me about computer role-playing games (CRPG) is the pure amount of combat involved. The original pen and paper (PnP) games, the most famous of which is Dungeons and Dragons (DnD), evolved from war strategy games so its not surprising that combat was heavily emphasized. A hack and slash mentality was built into the systems. Killing, and only killing, was what gained you experience points (XP) and the vast majority of rules focused only on combat (Hit Points, To Hit, Armor Class, etc) so the actual role-playing was a function of the Dungeon Master's (DM) desires.

 

During the late eighties and early nineties a new type of RPG emerged, the most famous of which was Vampire: the Masquerade (V:tM). Combat was still supported but XP was no longer awarded on kills and the skill system emphasized both combat and non-combat abilities. Even better, a large amount of material was devoted to helping the DM create interesting stories, settings, and themes and rewarding players who acted 'in-character'.

 

CRPGs have largely followed the DnD mold: journey from A to B killing monsters, earn a bunch of XP so you can level up, and kill real strong monster at B. For many this is challenging, exciting, and fun and I think that's great but I don't think it's role-playing. The Final Fantasy games aren't role-playing and neither is Diablo and its ilk. An interesting story doesn't make a role-playing game, nor do stats, nor do classes. If I have to kill the Balirog it doesn't matter if I do it with a sword or a spell because I still have no choice when it comes to killing the Balirog.

 

It should be fairly obvious that CRPGs can never be what *I* consider to be *pure* role-playing games. I'll say this again so no one gets their nose bent out of joint, "...what *I* consider to be *pure* role-playing

[jaguars4ever]

Ah...this reminds me of when a friend of mine had his AOL account deleted for something he did on their forums:

 

Some woman must have spent hours typing up her anti-abortion and teenage pregnancy opinions (literally, 1000 lines long), and he thought that he would make a mockery of all her hard work by simply typing - 'C*NT'. ^_^

[Kdy-worker 1138]

Your post is a very good reading and you make good points...as for answers ..well i can only say that Bioware never aim to make a roleplaying game,no they make 3D diablo games with feats,and therefore see no reason to give the player a option to avoid combat..sadly.

[Maria Caliban]

Sadly, only 118 lines long.

 

I used NWN as an example because I know many people have played it and it illistrates a problem common to many CRPGs. BioWare gets a lot of flack for doing things the way the majority of gaming companies do but they still do put out good games.

[Zane0]

You have some good points. I hope you don't mind if I comment, I feel like a good blathering.

 

From what I see, it seems that combat-oriented RPGs are more popular than story-oriented RPGs. This is likely because many gamers don't care too much about the ultimate roleplaying experience, and would rather enjoy killing stuff because it looks cool. This is becoming a problem with the industry; developers are often forced into compromising with their vision of a great game with the publisher, in order to make the game more accessible for the casual player. (More $$)

 

KOTOR itself was originally slated for the PC only, but LucasArts pushed the dev team into making it an X-Box product too, and certain compromises had to be made in order for the game to work with an X-Box audience. Tons of combat, and a consolized interface at the expense of depth, are examples.

 

PS:T was a brilliant RPG, but it wasn't a huge seller. Garbage like Deer Hunter, and depthless click-fests like Diablo II, sell millions on the other hand. Gamers don't necessarily appreciate depth and good design, which can sometimes really suck. :[

 

Anyways, with this in mind, KOTOR 2 is in a similar predicament as KOTOR 1 was. Ideas that would make KOTOR 2 a masterpiece of storywork and depth for roleplaying & story diehards can only go so far without sacrificing the more-profitable casual audience, and thereby possibly angering the folks who gave you rights to make the game in the first place.. (Lucasarts)

 

Finally, Combat also serves as a time-sink in addition to appealing to the casual audience. You don't need to create dialogue or develop the story in a dungeon crawl- combat allows the developers to stretch content out. In combat's favor though, it does make certain accomplishments feel more powerful when you have to personally fight through several waves of enemies that block your way.

 

Now Obsidian has a lot of designers that were credited with the creation PS:T, which I imagine will lead to more depth and less combat then expected in itself. Still, I think Obsidian can only go so far with the legacy of KOTOR 1 casting its shadow over the project.

 

Redemption as a theme, right? Wrong. More like hypocrisy. When I battle Darth Malak I show no mercy. Sure, if I can be redeemed anyone can. Sure, he was once a friend of mine who idolized me. Sure, I am partially responsible for his turning to the dark side. That doesn't matter a wit because he is evil and must die. I HAVE to kill him.

I must oppose this example on grounds of it being technically incorrect! As Revan, you can ask Malak to surrender and return to the light several times, but Malak proclaims that he would rather die. Yes though, semantics aside, you technically have no choice in the matter of fighting or not.

 

With all of that said, I still support your idea that there should be more options for avoiding combat. I'm just not sure how effective these suggestions can be when aimed towards a sequel where the devs often mention that it will be quite similar to the first game in many ways. My best wishes on the eternal quest for RPG perfection though. Perhaps some day, it will be reached.

[Nartwak]

I've always thought of the Jedi as Lawful Neutral sect of warrior priests. Killing isn't against their ethos, just murder.

 

But that doesn't have much to do with KotOR game dynamic, now does it.

[Dereth]

Revan's attempts to convert Malak can be summarized quite easily.

 

Revan: Malak, cast away the dark side and come to the light.

Malak: no.

Revan: Well, I tried. *Stab*

[GhostofAnakin]

I tend to agree with a few of the ideas you put forth. For instance, your Malak example. When I played through as LS, I was hoping that after I had "defeated" him (ie. his energy bar was down to zero), one of the options in the dialogue tree was to redeem him. I believe you can actually try with various dialogues to the theme of "come back to the light. i did", but alas, he won't be redeemed. It would have made the ending that much more "Light Side" if, at the final cutscene, Malak was standing at your side once more, but this time as a redeemed Jedi Knight.

 

But I suppose the response to the comment that you don't really have an option NOT to fight could be situations like Juhani in the grove, or Bastila on the Star Forge. Both times, you have the option to kill them, or do the "Jedi" thing and spare them. So in that sense, I think KOTOR did a fairly good job (compared to most situations) of giving your character viable options to bloodshed should you choose that path.

[Antagonist]

They should also get rid of the light /dark side meter, because it destroys any roleplaying value if you are instantly told wether you did something good or wrong. It should be noted invisible to a player if you did something good (or evil) and the game should adjust over time, like cutting out good (or peaceful) dialogue respnses and making it harder to use light side powers (critical failure ?).

 

And I agree fully with Maria about quest related experience point. Not only would it allow to solve a situation in different ways without being compensated unfairly, at the same time it would force the designers to focus on the quests themselves. At the end I believe and hope that we would get both better balanced combat system and more opportunities to actually roleplay.

 

I am somewhat sceptic if every situation should be solved non-violently. Some of the best moral conflicts are created by the fact that sometimes you have to resort to violance in order to do "the right thing". But the player should do ALL he/she can do before resorting to this final solution.

 

The problem with design is the sheer amount of work. An RPG that allows different solutions to the same problem that are equally fullfulling has to have the dialogue depth of Planescape, the sneaking part like Thief or Spliter Cell and a well-balanced combat system, so most developers seem to concentrate on one thing and do it right (although Bioware did a medicore job with story and combat). Imagine using the force like Ben Kenobi in Star Wars when he distracts the Strom Troopers with a noise or Luke and Han use disguises to move around the Death Star unnoticed. Sadly it would propably take too much time and money to implement something like this properly when you have a deadline.

 

Antagonist

[Nartwak]

But I suppose the response to the comment that you don't really have an option NOT to fight could be situations like Juhani in the grove, or Bastila on the Star Forge. Both times, you have the option to kill them, or do the "Jedi" thing and spare them. So in that sense, I think KOTOR did a fairly good job (compared to most situations) of giving your character viable options to bloodshed should you choose that path.

This makes me wonder; what disparity is there between the number of times you initiated combat compared to number times combat was initiated against you.

[Gorth]

Now, I'm a Jedi so lightside sunbeams are coming out of my ass

I might just save that one for a future occasion

 

Unfortunately you're right. Even the name TSR (Tactical Studies Rules) suggest that it's old games like DnD was about tactical combat and the fine art of creating a framework for all that combat.

 

Also, one of the reasons that games like Fallout and PS:T has a cult status instead of being a commercial legend. In those games, you could avoid most of the tedious combat and find other things to pass time and gain benefits from.

 

But like a previous poster mentioned, people who like a more complex approach to problem solving are a minority, compared to the munchkin masses with the loose money. Whether it's lack of imagination, inferiority complexes, plain boredom, whatever, the majority of buyers seems to prefer games where they can whack something on a regular basis (perhaps the wife is bigger and stronger than themself ?)

 

So, gamers like "us" (us being those who don't care much for overabundance of combat in crpgs) will still be a small niche market, with the occasional exotic title thrown in our direction every decade or so.

[Meshugger]

Interesting points you brought up there, if someone wants to go LS in its purest form (not killing anyone) then there should be a option to do so.

[evil.E]

Interesting read Maria and I agree with a lot of what you had to say.

 

Oddly enough there were a few quests which begged to have a multiple solutions. For example the tomb on Korriban with the Attack Droid. That was a perfect stealth mission. I loaded up on the stealth points, went in all alone (literally) and made my way all the way to the final door completely undetected. But for some reason it wouldn't let me in. So I had to go all the way back down the hall destroying every droid in my path. Afterwards the main droid thanks me for being quiet???? I guess his super sensors didn't pick up the noise of droids exploding when I hit them with Destroy Droid, Force Wave and Master Flurry.

 

It would of been so much better, not to mention made a lot more sense, if you had been able to enter the second chamber completely undetected, repaired the rogue droid and left without raising a single alarm. This should be the solution that gets you the maximum amount of XP. If you failed to repair the droid then all hell would break loose and you'd have to fight your way out.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

valid points you make...

[Enoch]

I've been on the objective-based XP crusade for quite a while now. Good to see that there's some company around here. This is a sequel, though, so I doubt too much will be fundamentally altered.

 

They could take some efforts to to knock down the hero's kill count, though. One way to do so is to allow for enemies to flee when reasonable. Really, how many ordinary sith soldiers or planetary guards are going to stand their ground once they hear that lightsabre ignite?

 

Also, there should be an opportunity to break off combat and walk on by a force-incapacitated opponent. If there are reasonable flight scripts, a Jedi should be able to assume that he'll get out of dodge once he recovers. This sort of thing happened a lot in the films.

[Shdy314]

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...l=fixing+skills

A post I started that began on fixing skills and evolved into much of what you just posted.

 

During the late eighties and early nineties a new type of RPG emerged, the most famous of which was Vampire: the Masquerade (V:tM). Combat was still supported but XP was no longer awarded on kills and the skill system emphasized both combat and non-combat abilities. Even better, a large amount of material was devoted to helping the DM create interesting stories, settings, and themes and rewarding players who acted 'in-character'.

Yep. That's why I am interested in Vampite TM Bloodlines.

 

CRPGs have largely followed the DnD mold: journey from A to B killing monsters, earn a bunch of XP so you can level up, and kill real strong monster at B. For many this is challenging, exciting, and fun and I think that's great but I don't think it's role-playing. The Final Fantasy games aren't role-playing and neither is Diablo and its ilk.  An interesting story doesn't make a role-playing game, nor do stats, nor do classes. If I have to kill the Balirog it doesn't matter if I do it with a sword or a spell because I still have no choice when it comes to killing the Balirog.

Yes largely they have. Though they followed the Tolkien model. Id still consider Daiblo and FF roleplaying just very shallow roleplaying. Definitely not the same kind as VTM.

 

It should be fairly obvious that CRPGs can never be what *I* consider to be *pure* role-playing games. I'll say this again so no one gets their nose bent out of joint, "...what *I* consider to be *pure* role-playing

[jaguars4ever]

I ran through the game robbing innocent people blind and never got a dark side point for it

Hey, don't knock the time honored cRPG tradition of stealing from peoples homes, while they watch & helpless to stop you!

 

Seriously though, you should get DS points for that.

[Nartwak]

The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clich

[jaguars4ever]

The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clich

[Dereth]

I ran through the game robbing innocent people blind and never got a dark side point for it

Hey, don't knock the time honored cRPG tradition of stealing from peoples homes, while they watch & helpless to stop you!

 

Seriously though, you should get DS points for that.

You only get DS points for robbing someone if you tell them about it. Basically they are all thinking, "Hey that guy must need that money and med packs pretty badly to bang on my door with a sword until it opened. Not that I would ever use them since I never, ever leave this room."

 

But then you yell, "I'm taking all your crap and there's nothing you can do to stop me!" and its suddenly evil. <_<

[nightcleaver]

I've read somewhere on the internet (feel free to question my source) that Jedi aim to incapacitate in battle, unless they have no choice but to end their lives - and if they do so, they would avoid disembowelment (slow, painful), lopping their heads off, and just hacking a person to bits in general - in preferece to a direct, clean stab, say to the heart. Can anyone confirm this for me?

 

So the possible solution for this could actually be quite simple: put this in the animations. I'm afraid, though, that they've already pretty much done all the animations, and I don't remember them saying anything other than skill level (NOT darkside/lightside alignment) determined the animations played.

 

Still, there are problems with CRPG combat, and it's part of the reason games have the Star Forge phenomena, with endless waves of the same type of enemy which would be totally implausible in a book or story, with good reason; much the same reason you don't explain your character's bathroom habits unless it relates to the story. Action, in excess, is just action, but for the sake of computer games it should still be there. Making combat easier per individual enemy, lowering XP benefits, thusly increases the amount of monster's fought considerably, which I've always found pointless. In fact, if it weren't for the horribly toohard/tooeasy gameplay in NWN, I'd probably be playing some fan-made module than blabbing on these boards right now when no one (read: few enough that I rarely get response) actually reads, understands, or cares about my posts.

 

 

The battles could have been longer, I think. It seems a little odd how often hits would go to each side of a duel. In my opinion, combat would have been much more effective if there were less of it (the Star Forge was disgusting, and I dread the tedium of going into it whenever I replay KotOR) and what existed were more dramatic. Many people complained about the difficulty of the final battle with Malak. I think that's just people not being used to that level of difficulty - the final battle really isn't any harder than making use of what you have. Still, though, I think he should have missed you about as much as you missed him, yes? the use of healpacks and drugs in general is sort of cheap, gives you a very un-cinematic feel for your involvement. In fact, the design of the DnD system in general is such that you feel like you're playing with stats, not that you're playing through your character. Actually, I take that back - it's like hammering the healthpack/drug button over and over again. I don't even call that strategy - that's a clickfest, and I don't frankly understand how that's any different than twiddling your thumbs, or pressing "EEEE" over and over again on your keyboard in notepad.

 

Something else I've noticed: in all (except maybe less KotOR) Bioware RPG's I've played, your success depended on how many items you found during the game. IF you didn't find all the items, were mostly interested in how the main story played out than hopelessly bashing heads for an eternity, the final battle was much harder - no, WAAYY harder, simply because you aren't enthusiastic about big shiny's.

 

 

Game's have difficulty levels. This could be used to change how much the player needs to micromanage, not just how many HP the enemy's have. As I saw in the first KotOR, higher difficulty just meant a few more healthpacks and drugs, and maybe a character would die now and again. It saved them from the beast of repetitive save/reload gameplay, but dug them deeper in their whole of over-simplifying combat.

 

The nature of Force powers is much simplifier, less involving of strategy than magic from DnD games. I think, maybe the force points should increase at a more flat rate while you level.

 

All that to say this: Bioware keeps making things easier and easier, more reachable by more people, supposedly, when that wasn't ever the way to go. Seeing how it's not my job to figure these things out, I'm not the one to give you a ruleset or system or whatever that would function effectively for this purpose, but I understand enough to see it's possible.

 

(or perhaps I don't understand enough to see it isn't possible, eh?)

[Nartwak]

Garrett's Principle

Let's not mince words: you're a thief. You can walk into just about anybody's house like the door wasn't even locked. You just barge right in and start looking for stuff. Anything you can find that's not nailed down is yours to keep. You will often walk into perfect strangers' houses, lift their precious artifacts, and then chat with them like you were old neighbors as you head back out with their family heirlooms under your arm. Unfortunately, this never works in stores.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

Holy crap, even more valid points you make... :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

[Gorth]

Much logic I sense in that one...

[Maria Caliban]

Garrett's Principle

Let's not mince words: you're a thief. You can walk into just about anybody's house like the door wasn't even locked. You just barge right in and start looking for stuff. Anything you can find that's not nailed down is yours to keep. You will often walk into perfect strangers' houses, lift their precious artifacts, and then chat with them like you were old neighbors as you head back out with their family heirlooms under your arm. Unfortunately, this never works in stores.

It was evening on Manaan and the sun hung low in the sky, turning smooth, metal buildings of the city into mirrors of fiery reds and oranges. Davon Brok lay in the darkness of his hotel room. His bed was small but cool and soft and his eyes were half-lidded. Part of his mind was still going over the minutia of the day, the cargo manifests and the stubborn, lazy dockworkers he supervised, but the other half was falling into a languid slumber. He heard a soft clicking and a whisper of moving air but thought nothing of it.

 

"A-hem." Came a polite cough. Brok groggily opened his steel blue eyes. There was a Jedi hovering near the foot of his bed, her arms clasped behind her ramrod straight back, her eyes stared straight forward.

 

"Ahh?" Brok said. He wasn't quite sure if this was real.

 

"Don't worry." Came a cheerful, female voice. Brok turned his head and spotted another Jedi methodically going through his drawers. "We'll be out in a bit."

 

Brok sat straight up in the bed, "What the-?!" he began.

 

"I'm just looking for anything valuable." The blonde, female Jedi continued.

 

"I promise." Said the brunette in a crisp, aristocratic tone. "We will leave you shortly."

 

Brok turned to the brunette in bewilderment, "What are you doing in my room?"

 

She shifted on her feet uncomfortably and continued to stare straight head, refusing to look at his bare chest, "Official Jedi business." She finally said, though even she sounded unconvinced.

 

The blonde had made her way through the drawers and now opened the locker at the foot of his bed, "Oh, these look interesting." She said, and pulled out a handful of glossy magazines featuring undressed T'Wileks. "I bet we could get some credit for these."

 

The brunette glanced at what was in her companion's hand and blushed. "I think we should check on the crew Rev- ah, I mean Aurora. See how they're doing."

 

"All in good time, Bastila. Here, hold these." Aurora responded and shoved the magazines into Bastila's hands. Aurora beamed at Brok and sat down on the bed. "So, any problems you want me to solve? Anything interesting happening?"

 

Brok's mouth just hung open. Was this woman mad? He looked at Bastila, she seemed to be sane. Bastila just shrugged helplessly.

 

Aurora continued to look at him expectantly.

 

"Fine. Everything's peachy." Brok managed to say.

"That's great!" the Jedi sat up. "Thanks for the magazines and don't forget to call me if you need anything. Come along Bastila." With that Aurora silently walked out the open door.

 

Bastila turned to Brok, an expression of pure sympathy on her face. "You know