After playing Kingmaker..

[Gromnir]

4 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

You misunderstood me. Maybe I didn't express myself well. I didn't mean that the forum got friendlier because Josh left. I didn't want to imply such causal connection. 

I only meant that

1. Josh left because the forum got nasty.

2. Then the forum got nicer (for reasons unknown to me) but

3. Josh wasn't coming back.

Sorry if I was unclear.

your post were incidental to our response. as we noted, our issues were with obsidian perceptions and rationales and conclusions. were obsidians who avoided boards 'cause o' toxicity and a desire to reduce polarization resulting from developer posts. 

developer interaction were consistent in the bug-hunt section o' these boards, and nowhere else. we see this as a mistake particular given oversights such as the might calculation we mentioned earlier. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

@Gromnir: I agree. 

I also agree to @thelee's point: it may be hard to find the gems between all the Hühnerscheiße, especially once the board becomes a more crowded place (like after beta release and such) and nusiances like firkraag888/master guardian/no1fanboy/whatever_name emerge from their moms' basements.

But I also think (without wanting to sound too pompous) that devs should at least read what forum regulars of solid repute, knowledge and reasoning have to say about the game. Even if the forum is drowning it shouldn't be too hard to keep track of people like that. Not that their opinion is more important than that of the others per se, but the chances are a lot higher that you don't have to read a lot of ranting and drivel if you're concentrating on those.

It is quite easy to get the devs' attention if you befriend them on other platforms like Discord, Twitter etc. Even Josh, although a busy man, will answer most questions regarding Obsidian stuff pretty quickly. It's just weird that one has to poke devs on Twitter and tell them to look into their own forums. 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Boeroer

[Theonlygarby]

I also hated Pathfinder.  I put over 100 hours into it.  I think I had fun for maybe 5 hours in total.   Eventually I just started saving every 10 seconds, just in case I failed to disarm a trap, or I had a bad dice roll in kingdom building.

My biggest problem with cRPGs is the need to min max...  I know it's a big part of RPGs but it really takes me out of the mood when you have to drop your intelligence or wisdom or whatever down as low as possible otherwise your character will be useless.

Really seems like a jack of all trades master of none isn't really viable in most RPGs...  I understand that's just how things are, but Pathfinder kingmaker really takes that to the extreme.  

Also Pathfinder had very little "role playing". Quite like mass effect 2 it punishes you if you don't stick to one rigid alignment.

I'm not a numbers person at all.  I play for the story.  The story of Pathfinder was far too busy, and I couldn't connect with any single story beat, as it was quickly brushed aside for a new story.

I wanted to like it, I wouldn't call it a bad game... Just not for me.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Theonlygarby

[xzar_monty]

22 minutes ago, Theonlygarby said:

I also hated Pathfinder.  I put over 100 hours into it.  I think I had fun for maybe 5 hours in total.

If you hated it, why did you put that amount of time into it? Sounds very odd.

I quite enjoyed it. I agree that it had quite a few flaws, but it had quite a lot to offer as well.

[thelee]

7 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

If you hated it, why did you put that amount of time into it? Sounds very odd.

I quite enjoyed it. I agree that it had quite a few flaws, but it had quite a lot to offer as well.

i have hated games like FO76 and FF8 but I still put tens of hours into them, in the hopes that they would get better or because I just wanted to finish them and be done with it.

[Theonlygarby]

50 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

If you hated it, why did you put that amount of time into it? Sounds very odd.

I quite enjoyed it. I agree that it had quite a few flaws, but it had quite a lot to offer as well.

Because that's how much I wanted to like it.  A CRPG where you're a king?  Sign me up.  Honestly a lot of that was me finding out my character build sucked, so I started over.  

I mean it's better than me playing 30 minutes and saying it sucked.

44 minutes ago, thelee said:

i have hated games like FO76 and FF8 but I still put tens of hours into them, in the hopes that they would get better or because I just wanted to finish them and be done with it.

Yeah exactly.  The game definitely had something that made me want to play.  Just wasn't enjoyable

[Boeroer]

I'm too old for that. If it doesn't make me happy after a few hours it has to go. Same with books. I used to finish every book I started even if I didn't like it. Not anymore. If it stinks it gets thrown out immediately. No time for meh.

[Theonlygarby]

9 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I'm too old for that. If it doesn't make me happy after a few hours it has to go. Same with books. I used to finish every book I started even if I didn't like it. Not anymore. If it stinks it gets thrown out immediately. No time for meh.

Maybe Pathfinder is the last game I'll do that with.  I played death stranding and gave up on that garbage very quickly

[xzar_monty]

11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I'm too old for that. If it doesn't make me happy after a few hours it has to go. Same with books. I used to finish every book I started even if I didn't like it. Not anymore. If it stinks it gets thrown out immediately. No time for meh.

Yeah, I'm in this camp, too. I tried both Tyranny and D:OS and found within minutes that they were not for me. I mean, I revoked my purchase for both within an hour and thus got my money back.

And yes, it is possible that I made a mistake. It always is. I take that chance. But I'm not going to waste my time in something that looks not for me.

[Boeroer]

I usually don't get refunds.  I made the (usually informed) decision to buy that game - and as long as it's not broken or something I think that it's my problem if I don't like it. Usually it's not the quality of a game (reviews help here not to buy badly done stuff) but it's simply my taste that wasn't met. I understand that players who don't have much to spare will get refunds though. I would have done it as a student, too. Money was so scarce then. That's no longer the case. So - one could say that instead of wasting time I now waste money. But I don't feel that way. 

That's why stuff like Pathfinder, D:OS and D:OS2, Wasteland2 and lots of other titles sit in my Steam library with me barely looking at them, let alone playing them.

Wait - now that I think about it: can't one give away games on Steam or something? Or lend them for free? Wasn't that a thing?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Wait - now that I think about it: can't one give away games on Steam or something? Or lend them for free? Wasn't that a thing?

I am not aware of a possibility of moving games inbetween accounts once they have been redeemed. There is family sharing, where you can share library between computers, as long as you don’t use it at the same time. 
 

there was also a french ruling that digital games should be allowed to be resold:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/09/19/steam-should-let-users-resell-games-french-court-rules/

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I usually don't get refunds.  I made the (usually informed) decision to buy that game - and as long as it's not broken or something I think that it's my problem if I don't like it.

Nothing wrong with that, and I completely understand that motivation. However, Steam has specified that you if you ask for a refund within one hour of purchasing a title, you will generally get your money back. The option is there and it's defined in a fair and square manner, so I am quite happy to use it, although I agree with the spirit of owning up to my mistakes when it comes to bad purchases. I have made a few from other sources (GOG, for instance), and I fully admit to being responsible for making poor decisions, that's fine. Like, I did some background research on Temple of Elemental Evil, purchased it, played it for a bit, decided that it wasn't good enough and that's it, my mistake, not asking for my money back.

[wih]

How can this be your mistake. You cannot know beforehand that a certain game is not for you. You simply doesn't have this information. There are so many things that can potentially turn out to be wrong for you and cause the game to be not enjoyable.

[daven]

Josh ran away to his echo chamber.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I reinstalled Kingmaker. So far I ran into an issue where a save I loaded on the worldmap for the Varnhold dlc froze the game, and when using the unity mod manager the game the game frequently freezes when loaded and does not close. Otherwise cosmetic bugs and clunky feeling navigating the menus.

In terms of gameplay it requires a knowledge not just of Pathfinder but of the specfic things implemented in game. For instance Magus is missing Close Range arcana so spellstrike caps out with Vampiric Touch (which is bad) but Eldritch Scion and Sword Saint are much better than their PnP counterparts (which is good).

All in all my experience has been fun with severe bumps of frustration.

[xzar_monty]

I didn't feel it requires knowledge of Pathfinder. After all, when I started the game, all I knew about Pathfinder was that it is a continuation of sorts for DD, and I did just fine.

Edited December 8, 2019 by xzar_monty

[Boeroer]

17 hours ago, wih said:

How can this be your mistake. You cannot know beforehand that a certain game is not for you. You simply doesn't have this information. There are so many things that can potentially turn out to be wrong for you and cause the game to be not enjoyable.

With the same argumentation one could claim a refund if one doesn't like a chocolate bar. Take a bite and demand a refund for the 90% that's left.

I know - it's not the same since software doesn't get used up just because I downloaded it. But even if physical products and software are not congruent in every aspect: That "let's just try it and get a refund if I don't like it" not my approach. Also not with Amazon products where that's a usual thing to do (I only send back a product once to Amazon - except broken stuff of course).

I also don't try on some clothes in a boutique (which seem to fit nicely) but after some days I think "I don't actually like them" and bring them back. Not wha I do. I don't like that mindset. It seems to be a bit careless. Obviously it's ok to do that. But it's not my approach. I would give the clothes to somebody I know or to charity and move on. My approach is to accept that my decision was hasty or risky or simply poor - and I would want to improve my decision-making in the future. If I don't take responsibility for poor decisions I feel I will never learn to make better ones. A sideeffect is that I cherish the things I bought more and use them more often. 

Nowadays you can watch youtubers and streamers and reviews and tests and whatnot which can give you a good idea about a game. I'd say it's very easy to make an informed decision and the risk of buying something you actually loathe is very low. However - happened to my two weeks ago. I bought The Darkest Dungeon. Now I know which kind of games I don't like.

Since I often buy indy games... I want more indy games than less. I also think they often can use every dime. So I let them keep mine. It doesn't hurt me. 

Of course you can only follow that apporach if you don't have to turn every dime. In that case it's a very good thing that you can get refunds at all. And I'm sure Steam and otehr platforms would be happy if they didn't have to give them - but some brave people fought for it. So no flak from me for getting refunds.  It's just my personal feels.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Boeroer

[daven]

22 hours ago, Boeroer said:

With the same argumentation one could claim a refund if one doesn't like a chocolate bar. Take a bite and demand a refund for the 90% that's left.

I know - it's not the same since software doesn't get used up just because I downloaded it. But even if physical products and software are not congruent in every aspect: That "let's just try it and get a refund if I don't like it" not my approach. Also not with Amazon products where that's a usual thing to do (I only send back a product once to Amazon - except broken stuff of course).

I also don't try on some clothes in a boutique (which seem to fit nicely) but after some days I think "I don't actually like them" and bring them back. Not wha I do. I don't like that mindset. It seems to be a bit careless. Obviously it's ok to do that. But it's not my approach. I would give the clothes to somebody I know or to charity and move on. My approach is to accept that my decision was hasty or risky or simply poor - and I would want to improve my decision-making in the future. If I don't take responsibility for poor decisions I feel I will never learn to make better ones. A sideeffect is that I cherish the things I bought more and use them more often. 

Nowadays you can watch youtubers and streamers and reviews and tests and whatnot which can give you a good idea about a game. I'd say it's very easy to make an informed decision and the risk of buying something you actually loathe is very low. However - happened to my two weeks ago. I bought The Darkest Dungeon. Now I know which kind of games I don't like.

Since I often buy indy games... I want more indy games than less. I also think they often can use every dime. So I let them keep mine. It doesn't hurt me. 

Of course you can only follow that apporach if you don't have to turn every dime. In that case it's a very good thing that you can get refunds at all. And I'm sure Steam and otehr platforms would be happy if they didn't have to give them - but some brave people fought for it. So no flak from me for getting refunds.  It's just my personal feels.

Apparently young people are becoming serial returners more and more. Due to the whole social media lifestyle people want a new outfit every weekend to take photos of themselves in and then they send it back. 

Of course that is clothing not games.