[CLASS BUILD] Hand Of Doom - Forbidden Fist/Steel Garrote

[Fawkes_Ice]

Hello and thanks for the build. Just a few questions if I may.

1. Would this build work on Veteran without Berath's stat blessing and also as another race?

2. Does this build generate back monk resources in any way?

[dgray62]

Since the build was designed for PotD it would work on Veteran too. And with forbidden fist, every time a hostile effect expires you gain a wound. With high resolve and clarity of agony, negative effects expire very quickly. In the early game FF builds tend to be starved for wounds, but this changes when you get Hylea's talons. They also shine in tough fights against foes with hard CC, which a well-designed FF can shrug off easily, gaining wounds in the process.

[Boeroer]

Don't know if that was already mentioned: when going solo (and it's totally possible with this build) you might check out the Ring of the Solitary Wanderer (from the early Drake bounty who's name eludes me... Pukuhatakatemate or something).

It has -35% hostile effect duration with no allies nearby. That's the equivalent of nearly 12 points of Resolve, even if Resolve would be maxed out at 35 (which I'm not sure how to achieve, but theoretically). I never tested how Resolve and other hostile effect reductions stack. Are they additive or would they combine more like recovery reductions for example?

Edited September 16, 2020 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I never tested how Resolve and other hostile effect reductions stack. Are they additive or would they combine more like recovery reductions for example?

They multiply, i believe. 50% + 30% reduction is not 80%, but 0.5duration*0.7duration=0.35, so 65% reduction. Each subsequent effect have lower impact.

[thelee]

sorry, to disappoint, but i'm almost 100% sure it's the double-inversion fiasco. i had a max-resolve character once.

 

35 resolve (19 starting + 1 background, +5 cloak of poverty, +1 ring of solitary wanderer, +1 chameleon ring [priest], +1 shorewalker sandals, +2 token of faith, +5 a resolve inspiration) = -75% reduction

ring of solitary wanderer: -35% when far away from allies

 

Almost any negative number (regardless of what it is, e.g. con healthy penalty, int aoe penalty, reputation effects on deep faith) undergoes inversion. So what actually ends up happening is (1/(1-.75)) + (1/(1-.35) - 1 = 4.54 => 4.54 is > 0, so 1-1/(1 + 4.54) = -82%. this is not as good as a purely multiplicative effect, which sould have been 1 - .25 * .65 => -83.75%. (edit 2 - though the closer the numbers involved are to 100% and the closer any positive modifiers are to canceling out the inverted negative numbers, the more closely it approximates a purely multipliative system)

 

edit: what's important to keep in mind is that the resolve effects on duration are applied during the same step as intellect bonuses, they don't happen in isolation. so if an enemy has +100% duration to their effects, having your hostile effect reduction this high doesn't merely reduce it to +18% duration bonus, the double-inversion overwhelms that +100% and you still end up with something like -50% duration penalty (ballparking, because i'm too lazy to do the math) effect reduction. in the combat log, the duration of effects you see is the "final" number, and if you hover over it you get the number of what *would* have happened ignoring resolve effects altogether.

Edited September 16, 2020 by thelee

[Powerotti]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

sorry, to disappoint, but i'm almost 100% sure it's the double-inversion fiasco. i had a max-resolve character once.

I'm not disappointed at all . I was testing it roughly with character sheet tooltips and the numbers seemed suitable

[thelee]

10 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

I'm not disappointed at all . I was testing it roughly with character sheet tooltips and the numbers seemed suitable

in fairness, there's not that many sources of hostile effect reduction, and i think if you have only one negative number it ends up being very close to a multpilicative system (good enough for back of the envelope math and determining how to cancel out penalties, i do this for penetration/AR numbers). it can get really ugly pretty fast with multiple negative numbers (action speed/recovery time is the worst offender since there's so many modifiers).

 

e.g. at -75% PEN you need +300% damag emodifiers to cancel that out, which is very much like a multiplicative system. Combining -75% PEN and -50% graze and now you need +400% damage modifiers, which is very different from what you'd expect from a multiplicative system.

Edited September 16, 2020 by thelee

[dgray62]

I have started a forbidden fist/steel garrote build, following the Hand of Doom build  with some modifications as I play on MAC OS and can't use mods, unfortunately. I was wondering if it would be worth getting sacred immolation at PL 7. Would hight RES and clarity of agony minimize the raw damage ticks, as they do with the FF curse?

[Ivanfyodorovich]

18 hours ago, dgray62 said:

I have started a forbidden fist/steel garrote build, following the Hand of Doom build  with some modifications as I play on MAC OS and can't use mods, unfortunately. I was wondering if it would be worth getting sacred immolation at PL 7. Would hight RES and clarity of agony minimize the raw damage ticks, as they do with the FF curse?

Yes! This is a great synergy. Everything that reduces the damage of the FF curse will also reduce the self-damage of SI. 

 

Also, side note - you can use mods with Mac OS, you just need to show hidden folders to install. A little googling should find how to do that (I don't have a link handy). 

[dgray62]

Thanks, Ivanfydorovich. I downloaded the Community Patch and tried to install it, but couldn't get it to activate when I restarted my game. It may be that I placed my override file in the wrong place. I'll do some Googling to see if I can get it to work. 

[Ivanfyodorovich]

12 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Thanks, Ivanfydorovich. I downloaded the Community Patch and tried to install it, but couldn't get it to activate when I restarted my game. It may be that I placed my override file in the wrong place. I'll do some Googling to see if I can get it to work. 

I think you need to click on the "EXE" (not sure what it's called on Mac) and select view package contents. Within that is where the override folder should go. Feel free to message me directly, and I can try to remember anything else I had to do to make it work. 

[dgray62]

I followed instructions I read online and placed the extended Community Patch folder inside of an override folder (which I created) within the Data folder inside of the app's package contents. However, when I run the game, the mod doesn't appear in the mod manager. I'm sure I did something wrong but I'm not exactly sure what. Thanks for the tips!

[dgray62]

Does the self-damage from the forbidden fist curse or the raw damage from Hylea's talons trigger the paladin talent retribution? The in-game description of this ability is vague, and simply says you gain a 5% stacking bonus to damage with weapons when damaged. If so, retribution would be proc-ed continually with this build, and might be worth taking.

[Boeroer]

Didn't test this specifically, but if it works anything like Dance of Death and such it will only trigger upon actual hit rolls, not self damage. 

For example Dance of Deaths doesn't get removed from self damage no matter the source (Alacrity or Sacred Immolation or Forbidden Fist Curse or Mortification of the Soul and so on).

So I'm 99% sure Retribution will not get triggered by Forbidden Fist or Hylea's Talons. Maybe it gets triggered by Keeper of the Flame though? Its AoE has friendly fire and even procs Avenging Storm, so it's not far-fetched to assume it also triggers Retribution.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

Thanks, Boeroer. That makes sense. Might be worth taking if you're using Keeper of the Flame, but otherwise not, it seems.

[Boeroer]

I can check in the (German) evening if/how it works exactly and report afterwards.

[NotDumbEnough]

Generally speaking, when the game says "take damage", it actually means "take damage after rolling for accuracy against defenses". So Blood Mage's Sacrifice won't break Dance of Death, nor does it trigger a heal from Unbending, etc etc, because it never rolled against any defense. DoTs such as a paladin's self-immolation skills, or Forbidden Fist, also don't count as "damage".

[Boeroer]

I just tested it just to be sure and as expected the Forbidden Fist ability doesn't add stacks of Retribution.

Funnily enough Keeper of the Flame's burn damage (which does an attack roll against you) also doesn't add stacks.

But if you cast Minor Missiles on yourself (auto-hit, no roll) you do get 5 stacks immediately.

So what do we make of this?

[dgray62]

On 12/5/2020 at 2:28 PM, Boeroer said:

I just tested it just to be sure and as expected the Forbidden Fist ability doesn't add stacks of Retribution.

Funnily enough Keeper of the Flame's burn damage (which does an attack roll against you) also doesn't add stacks.

But if you cast Minor Missiles on yourself (auto-hit, no roll) you do get 5 stacks immediately.

So what do we make of this?

Strange. This game is filled with mysteries!

[Boeroer]

It really is. After all those hours of playtime still.

[Ophiuchus]

Hope the necro is ok, but had two quick questions for @Boeroerregarding the Community Patch Forbidden Fist ability (now a standard melee attack instead of a quasi-magic demi-melee attack). If FF triggers Swift Strikes/Heartbeat Drumming I'm assuming the extra strikes will come from the weapons and not the temporary Fist effect (go go Rust's Grognards Poignard!). Are there any mainhand weapon effects that will transfer to the Fist? What about offhand? Would something like Scordeo's Trophy apply? (Obviously Tuotilo's Palm works with it.)

Asking because I'm wondering if that change makes a difference in functionality.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Ophiuchus

[dgray62]

If you play with Community Patch, such that FF attacks are classified as weapon attacks, you will trigger extra attacks with swift flurry and heartbeat drumming. However, these extra attacks are primary attacks using the main hand weapon only if you are dual wielding. This is the reason that Powerotti recommends wielding Magran's Favor in your main hand with the axe modal on. The idea is that you would rarely be auto-attacking, but would rather be mainly using the FF attack and also periodically using eternal devotion to renew the fire lash. When swift flurry/heartbeat drumming procs, you'll deal a powerful attack with Magran's Favor and bleeding cuts, without the recovery penalty that the axe modal would inflict if you were auto-attacking. This is one of my favorite builds, and I can tell you from experience that it works very well.

[Boeroer]

Right.

Your "real" weapons don't transfer anything to your FF attacks. FF is still the same attack ability. Community patch just gave it the "tag" that it's not only a melee attack but a melee weapon attack now.

By the way: it doesn't matter what weapon you are wearing, ranged or melee: if FF procs Swift Flurry and/or Heartbeat Drumming your main hand weapon will execute the additional attack. In case of ranged weapons there will be no further procs then (because SF/HBD only work on melee weapon attacks) - but you could in theory hold a Rod + Blast (= very slow recovery) but mainly use Forbidden Fist. When SF/HBD proc you would do a rod-shot + blast once (with 0 recovery).   

Edited June 14, 2021 by Boeroer

[Ophiuchus]

Thanks for the clarification. I wondered if it would work with Citzal's or WoTEP. As an aside, a Steel Garrote/FF can wield Magistrate's Cudgel for Woedica RP and style: thinking that Sworn Enemy/Brand Enemy/Sworn Rival -> Judgment (+10 ACC versus afflicted opponent; assuming it stacks like Ranger Marks) -> Forbidden Fist -> Garrote would be a spicy combo.

[dgray62]

A monk with swift flurry and/or hearbeat drumming has a chance to proc another attack anytime you crit; it would certainly work, to fine effect, if you're wielding Citzal's or WotEP. As for Magistrate's Cudgel, you could certainly use it. But if you put it in your main hand, your swift flurry procs will be much less damaging. And if you put it in your offhand, you'll significantly lower your defenses. But you could experiment. A great alternate weapon set might be slayer's axe and the Cudgel. You could start battle with this, to upgrade tenacious to energized, and then switch over when you need more defense. Ball and chain with the irrepressible upgrade would also be great, since you'll constantly have hostile effects expiring, giving you the nice 15% damage boost almost constantly. You might explore these different options as you acquire them.