Cipher and +max Power Pool effects

[Quaranyr]

How does such stuff work with Cipher?

For example, my party just took a nice relaxing bath at Luminous Bathhouse. It gave +1 cast for level 1 spells for mages. Martial guys got simple +1 to their recource. I expected for cipher to get something like +10 focus yet he actually got... nothing? Is that how it supposed to work? If yes than it's just unfair

What about equipment with +max Power Pool effects, like Devil of Caroc Breastplate?

Edited May 27, 2019 by Quaranyr

[Jayd]

Chanter too. As far as I noticed there is no benefit whatsoever, even though there is a buff which says '+1 casts with Chanter/Cipher spells'. Would be nice to hear I missed something.

[MaxQuest]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:05 AM, Quaranyr said:

What about equipment with +max Power Pool effects, like Devil of Caroc Breastplate?

Afaik that bonus does nothing for single-class cipher.

On 5/27/2019 at 7:05 AM, Quaranyr said:

I expected for cipher to get something like +10 focus yet he actually got... nothing? Is that how it supposed to work? If yes than it's just unfair

It is)

And brilliant is kinda unfair to ciphers as well.

Martial classes get +1 discipline/guile/zeal/etc which roughly corresponds to 10% of their resource pool in late game (and more in early-mid game). 

At the same time a cipher with 220 max focus, gets just +10 focus, which is enough to cast a rank 1 power. Meanwhile a caster might get a rank 9 spell usage restored.

Edited May 28, 2019 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

So ... community patch idea? Brilliant on Ciphers from 10 Focus to 10% max Focus per tick

[AeonsLegend]

I don't see the issue. Ciphers have infinite spellcasts.

[omgFIREBALLS]

The Gunpowder Bathhouse would never rip honest chanters and ciphers off like this.

[MaxQuest]

4 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

I don't see the issue. Ciphers have infinite spellcasts.

Well, it's indeed not a big issue, since there is an easy solution: just don't count on resource generation from Brilliant as cipher ^^

Still, it feels a bit odd that there is Ancestor's Memory (a 70 focus-cost power) which, when cast by an mc-cipher, will restore:

• 10x3 focus over 12s (@10 INT)
• 10x4 focus over 18s (@20 INT)
• 10x5 focus over 24s (@30 INT)

to another cipher. But you have to generate those 70 focus first, and additionally spend time on cast and recovery. 

4 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

So ... community patch idea? Brilliant on Ciphers from 10 Focus to 10% max Focus per tick

I have took a look at Brilliant now. It is implemented as restoring 1 resource; and somewhere internally it tries to figure out what that would be. For cipher it seems to be 10 focus.

Technically I can make it restore 1 resource, and additionally 1 more if you are a cipher. So 10 + 10 focus.

 

---

@omgFIREBALLS,

I've been thinking about those barrels, and how you can be consistently missing a paralyzed enemy, even with physical attacks. I think such misses are there to emulate the inaccuracy; as in: it's still possible to aim for a static target and miss. And probably gunpowder barrel is just smaller (or was smaller in imagination of whoever put those defenses). 

Edited May 28, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Quaranyr]

9 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Afaik that bonus does nothing for single-class cipher. 

It is)

And brilliant is kinda unfair to ciphers as well.

Martial classes get +1 discipline/guile/zeal/etc which roughly corresponds to 10% of their resource pool in late game (and more in early-mid game). 

At the same time a cipher with 220 max focus, gets just +10 focus, which is enough to cast a rank 1 power. Meanwhile a caster might get a rank 9 spell usage restored.

I must say, cipher in general is way less fun in this game than in PoE1 (where I played as one AND usually had Grieving Mother with me). Partially because PoE2 cipher feels "slower" while the battles in generally take less time now. Partially - because a good number of spells are either situational or simply feel underwhelming compared to, say, wizard. Speaking of wizards- I would've thought that changing them to per encounter system would mean somewhat lesser difference in power between their spells and ciphers'. Nope, it's the opposite; now wizard spells are both stronger AND more available than in the first game (and Aloth is the most badass guy in the party now) yet cipher spells became weaker, starting focus is lower AND most of recource increasing  effects are either very weak for him or simply do not work? The latter feels outright dismissive. 

So far it seems that cipher is only good for boss battles. Or multiclassing.

[AeonsLegend]

10 hours ago, Quaranyr said:

I must say, cipher in general is way less fun in this game than in PoE1 (where I played as one AND usually had Grieving Mother with me). Partially because PoE2 cipher feels "slower" while the battles in generally take less time now. Partially - because a good number of spells are either situational or simply feel underwhelming compared to, say, wizard. Speaking of wizards- I would've thought that changing them to per encounter system would mean somewhat lesser difference in power between their spells and ciphers'. Nope, it's the opposite; now wizard spells are both stronger AND more available than in the first game (and Aloth is the most badass guy in the party now) yet cipher spells became weaker, starting focus is lower AND most of recource increasing  effects are either very weak for him or simply do not work? The latter feels outright dismissive. 

So far it seems that cipher is only good for boss battles. Or multiclassing.

Well Ciphers have been nerfed in PoE II when compared to PoE I, and other spellcasters have actually been buffed due to the per encounter system. So they feel less strong. I disagree that they're only good for multiclassing. Although the level 8 and 9 spells are a bit underwhelming a pure Cipher spellcaster Ascendant is definitely nothing to sneeze at. Beguiler and Psion have their own specific playing style which perhaps not superstrong makes for an interesting twist to the class. Soul Blade arguably is the subclass that was made for multiclassing with a figher style class. But going single class Cipher still is very powerful and fun.

[Boeroer]

I don't have that impression. On PotD at least (where PEN issues are common) Ciphers are on par with Wizards due to certain key abilites such as +PEN passives and powers - and of course because they are the only class that can "spam" effective Mind Control which still is the most effective CC option in the game. Besides that they also are able to buff themselves up pretty nicely (e.g. Psychovampiric Shield, Borrowed Instincts, Time Siphon) and others (Ancestor's Memory ftw). Also when soloing o PotD (where fights take a lot longer) it's way easier with a Cipher since he can replenish his resources while Wizards(exept Bloodmage), Fighters (except Tactician), Paladins, Barbarians, Druids, Rogues and Priests cannot.

They are also more fun than in PoE1 for me - because the subclasses influence the way you play your Cipher a lot more that Wizard's subclasses change the way you play your Wizard. Beguiler, Soulblade, Ascendant and Psion have pretty unique changes to their mechanic or role in combat. 

Also while they start with less focus, the generation of focus is much faster, especially if you take Draining Whip (which even doubles it). And attack/casting time got increased for everybody, that's not putting he cipher apart from the rest. In fact with a patch those initial long casting times got reduced so that the cipher is one of the "casters" with the fastest offensive spell pool on average (casting time and recovery combined). 

They work very well with muticlassing - but are also very good as single class characters. Reasons for that are the truly great passives of the highest power levels but also some very strong powers like Driving Echoes (which, cast on your party's nuker, makes a huge difference), Time Siphon (which stacks with itself to ridiculous amounts as long as you can infect a lot of enemies with one cast - especially bonkers with Ascendant) and Reaping Knives (which is especially crazy if you use with with a Soul Blade).

Wizards have the HUGE advage over all other classes that they have potential access to all spells via grimoire and grimoire switching. You don't need to pick up a single spell at level up to be able to cast them. Just equip up tp 6 grimoires and get 12 free spells at your disposal. At level up only pick passives if possible or non-wizard-stuff if you are multiclassing just pick the good stuff from the second class. That's why I would argue that, generally speaking, a Wizard is more suited for multiclassing than a Cipher (although there are exceptions like Soulblade getting a boost from Rogue for example).

[MaxQuest]

4 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Well Ciphers have been nerfed in PoE II when compared to PoE I

Generally yes.

• Even in v5.0 cipher are casting x1.5-x3 times slower than in PoE1, and thus have less time for actually building focus via weapon attacks. Here's a small comparison: link
• With MinRollToGraze set to 25, up from 15 in PoE1, ciphers have a higher chance to miss; and thus are a bit less reliable from cc point of view. Additionally there is a smaller duration bonus onCrit.
• A range of cipher powers were nerfed in effect. Amplified Wave no longer prones for 8s but 1s. Whisper of Treason breaks on 'allied' damage taken. Pain Link deals 25% of damage taken only to attacker, and not to all nearby enemies. Defensive Mindweb breaks on damage taken. Tactical Meld no longer grants +20 accuracy. Ectopsychic Echo base damage decreased from 20-30 to 7-13 (although it benefits from PL now). Detonate base damage decreased from 50-75 to 32-51 (although it benefits from PL now). Disintegration stacked with itself (which was huge). and so on.
• There are now affliction resistances in the game, which will downgrade cipher's cc-effects. Additionally affliction immunities seem to be much more common.
• Enemies now have access to inspirations, which can be used to partially counter cipher's cc-effects.
• Even if you landed your afflictions, the defense maluses are weaker than in PoE1. -40 deflection, -40 reflex, -100 dexterity, was crazy good in PoE1.
• in PoE1 it wasn't hard to get to zero recovery with both weapon and power attacks, which was a very big boost. In Deadfire you would need Blade Cascade for that.
• There is less need for cc now, as healing is unlimited, and coupled with high AR provides enough survivability. Also there is BDD + Salvation of Time.

On the other hand, ciphers now:

• don't get their damage partially eaten by DR; provided that they have enough PEN.
• have higher damage-to-focus coefficient. In PoE1 it was 0.35 (0.46 with Draining Whip). In Deadfire it is 0.5 (1.0 with Draining Whip).
• have access to interesting/strong subclasses. Ascendant and Beguiler being especially noteworthy. Or they can multi-class, for some combos that results in a quite higher focus gain.
• as was already mentioned, new Time Siphon, Death of 1000 Cuts, +9 PEN buff, and Shared Nightmare, are really good.
   

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Most of those

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

Generally yes.

• Even in v5.0 cipher are casting x1.5-x3 times slower than in PoE1, and thus have less time for actually building focus via weapon attacks. Here's a small comparison: link
• With MinRollToGraze set to 25, up from 15 in PoE1, ciphers have a higher chance to miss; and thus are a bit less reliable from cc point of view. Additionally there is a smaller duration bonus onCrit.
• [...]
• There are now affliction resistances in the game, which will downgrade cipher's cc-effects. Additionally affliction immunities seem to be much more common.
• Enemies now have access to inspirations, which can be used to partially counter cipher's cc-effects.
• Even if you landed your afflictions, the defense maluses are weaker than in PoE1. -40 deflection, -40 reflex, -100 dexterity, was crazy good in PoE1.
• in PoE1 it wasn't hard to get to zero recovery with both weapon and power attacks, which was a very big boost. In Deadfire you would need Blade Cascade for that.
• There is less need for cc now, as healing is unlimited, and coupled with high AR provides enough survivability. Also there is BDD + Salvation of Time.

All of those things above affect all characters and creatures, be it allies or enemies. A few are cipher specific (Pain Link, Amplified Wave, Mindweb, Tactical Meld) So one could make the argument that all classes are weaker if you compare them to PoE1. But so are the enemies. Overall the gameplay was made slower and all CC effects (including enemies') were made less impactful.

[MaxQuest]

Those quoted things don't really affect negatively someone like paladin 

Plus I was just comparing Deadfire ciphers specifically with PoE1 ciphers; without taking into account other classes; but mostly how fast and reliable can they keep enemies from hitting the players party, while indirectly buffing party's damage, by lowering targets' defenses.

And yeap, "CC effects (including enemies') were made less impactful.".