Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[BruceVC]

 

 

We should offer a program where service gaurentees citizenship.

 

This is a very good idea but maybe make it military service?

 

 

Dude, seriously?

 

 

 

 

 Exactly like this, good one 

[Gfted1]

@BVC: That would be my preference. Unfortunately, the US would suddenly become fully populated with clowns that have a moral objection to camouflage or something so we would have to come up with something else. And don't forget all the sick, lame and lazy. Cant exclude them or it will become an -ism. Hmm, scrap this plan and get back in line I guess.

 

EDIT: Geez guys, where do you think I got it?

[Gromnir]

 

In other news Pete Buttigieg is floating the idea of "mandatory" public service for everyone. Either in the military or some other yet-to-be-created-but-will-cost-a-country-with-out-of-control-spending-a-f-----g-lot organization. Boy the Democrats are really fond of the word "mandatory" aren't they? But it's nice to see them circling back around to their roots. The party of secession and slavery is proposing slavery in 2020. 

We had mandatory service in Germany from end of WWII until a few years ago. Like many other countries on earth that I wouldn't call slavers.

 

The idea (at least in Germany) was that you'll have a sound cross section of your actual society in the military (or an alternative service like fire service, Federal Agency for Technical Relief, community service - if you don't want to fire weapons and stuff). Also lifts the average IQ in the military quite a bit.

 

I think that's a very reasonable point. I didn't go to the military but did community service in a home for wayward children (13 months). And while it was a hard time I also learned a lot. I met people I would not have met if I would have just went from school to university. My best friend did community service in a home for trisomy 21 people. At new years eve we would meet with them and celebrate - and this was honestly one of the nicest party I ever attended.

 

Meanwhile very decent former schoolfellows went to the military and left their footprint there.

 

Then Germany switched to voluntary service. Guess what happened? And guess if it was a good thing for the military, the civil sector (think about hospitals, elder care...) and the society as a whole.   

 

gd can be a bit hyperbolic at times, but the 13th Amendment to our Constitution forbids slavery AND involuntary servitude, and such categories has been read pretty broad by Courts. the draft o' young men for military service is specifically considered in Article 1, Section 8 o' the Constitution, so is a bit different than mandatory service.

 

am thinking there is good arguments both for and against mandatory service, but is a legal non-starter.

 

socicialy obligatory service, on the other hand, is worth considering.  if university admissions and businesses hiring effective penalize those who do not serve in some capacity, many (not all) legal issues is avoided.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps while the movie were campy and woulda' offended heinlein, the book were the first scifi novel to be added to west point's recommended reading list. rico, in the book, were filipino, but such detail were noted almost as an afterthought, but were clear done to make a point.  

 

pps is gonna be a sore spot for gd as heinlein is often revered as something o' a patron saint o' libertarians

Edited April 19, 2019 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

 

In other news Pete Buttigieg is floating the idea of "mandatory" public service for everyone. Either in the military or some other yet-to-be-created-but-will-cost-a-country-with-out-of-control-spending-a-f-----g-lot organization. Boy the Democrats are really fond of the word "mandatory" aren't they? But it's nice to see them circling back around to their roots. The party of secession and slavery is proposing slavery in 2020. 

We had mandatory service in Germany from end of WWII until a few years ago. Like many other countries on earth that I wouldn't call slavers.

 

The idea (at least in Germany) was that you'll have a sound cross section of your actual society in the military (or an alternative service like fire service, Federal Agency for Technical Relief, community service - if you don't want to fire weapons and stuff). Also lifts the average IQ in the military quite a bit.

 

I think that's a very reasonable point. I didn't go to the military but did community service in a home for wayward children (13 months). And while it was a hard time I also learned a lot. I met people I would not have met if I would have just went from school to university. My best friend did community service in a home for trisomy 21 people. At new years eve we would meet with them and celebrate - and this was honestly one of the nicest party I ever attended.

 

Meanwhile very decent former schoolfellows went to the military and left their footprint there.

 

Then Germany switched to voluntary service. Guess what happened? And guess if it was a good thing for the military, the civil sector (think about hospitals, elder care...) and the society as a whole.   

 

gd can be a bit hyperbolic at times, but the 13th Amendment to our Constitution forbids slavery AND involuntary servitude, and such categories has been read pretty broad by Courts. the draft o' young men for military service is specifically considered in Article 1, Section 8 o' the Constitution, so is a bit different than mandatory service.

 

am thinking there is good arguments both for and against mandatory service, is a legal non-starter.

 

 

No real issue there Gromnir, you just make some minor changes  so the Constitution allows it...non-starter problem resolved . You know better than most that there have been several amendments to the current USA Constitution over the last 200 years or so  

 

https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/how-us-constitution-has-evolved-over-time/

 

 

@BVC: That would be my preference. Unfortunately, the US would suddenly become fully populated with clowns that have a moral objection to camouflage or something so we would have to come up with something else. And don't forget all the sick, lame and lazy. Cant exclude them or it will become an -ism. Hmm, scrap this plan and get back in line I guess.

 

EDIT: Geez guys, where do you think I got it?

 

Yes some people will try to abuse this way of becoming a USA citizen or shirk there responsibility but then citizenship should be denied, there would still be other paths to USA citizenship they could apply for 

 

Also they dont have to be a marine, which is intimidating  for some,  but you could join an engineering core or other non-combative unit which are very important to any military operations  but it should be military focused. I think this will demonstrate a real commitment to some of the core  values of the USA, a belief and support in your country 

 

The interesting question is how long should the person have to serve, 3-4 years?

[Gfted1]

Id say four years sounds fair:

 

[Gromnir]

since ww2, there has been 6 Amendments added to the Constitution... one o' which took more than 200 years to be adopted. 22nd Amendment were actual a reaction to wartime events, so may almost discount such inclusion as wars has a way o' increasing typical frequency o' Constitutional Amendment adoption. nevertheless, let's say one every 12 years or so?  given how polarized the nation is at this time, chances is reduced further.  is hardly a subject which enjoys bipartisan support... unlike the proposed flag burning amendment which were disappointing popular.  lack o' widespread popular support further reduces chances.

 

am thinking we get a manned (more likely to be womaned btw) trip to mars before you see a mandatory service Constitutional Amendment.  such foolish optimism is almost akin to planning on lottery winnings to fund a building project... or a lightning strike to power your time machine.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

since ww2, there has been 6 Amendments added to the Constitution... one o' which took more than 200 years to be adopted. 22nd Amendment were actual a reaction to wartime events, so may almost discount such inclusion as wars has a way o' increasing typical frequency o' Constitutional Amendment adoption. nevertheless, let's say one every 12 years or so?  given how polarized the nation is at this time, chances is reduced further.  is hardly a subject which enjoys bipartisan support... unlike the proposed flag burning amendment which were disappointing popular.  lack o' widespread popular support further reduces chances.

 

am thinking we get a manned (more likely to be womaned btw) trip to mars before you see a mandatory service Constitutional Amendment.  such foolish optimism is almost akin to planning on lottery winnings to fund a building project... or a lightning strike to power your time machine.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Okay, I see where what mean. It would be a much more complex task  to change the Constitution than I have assumed. Would this apply to military service for citizenship as well as you mentioned the  Article 1, Section 8 consideration?

[Gromnir]

 

since ww2, there has been 6 Amendments added to the Constitution... one o' which took more than 200 years to be adopted. 22nd Amendment were actual a reaction to wartime events, so may almost discount such inclusion as wars has a way o' increasing typical frequency o' Constitutional Amendment adoption. nevertheless, let's say one every 12 years or so?  given how polarized the nation is at this time, chances is reduced further.  is hardly a subject which enjoys bipartisan support... unlike the proposed flag burning amendment which were disappointing popular.  lack o' widespread popular support further reduces chances.

 

am thinking we get a manned (more likely to be womaned btw) trip to mars before you see a mandatory service Constitutional Amendment.  such foolish optimism is almost akin to planning on lottery winnings to fund a building project... or a lightning strike to power your time machine.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Okay, I see where what mean. It would be a much more complex task  to change the Constitution than I have assumed. Would this apply to military service for citizenship as well as you mentioned the  Article 1, Section 8 consideration?

 

Article 1, Sec. 8 Clause 4(? color us embarrassed... we could check, but occurred to us we need check) gives Congress the power to enact rule o' naturalization. Congress makes the rules... pass a law and get a President to sign. done. no Amendment needed, but cannot be done through executive order or similar nonsense either.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ShadySands]

When I was in the military we had two people in my company who were serving to get their citizenship but I've heard that it's become a lot harder now than it was back then.

[BruceVC]

When I was in the military we had two people in my company who were serving to get their citizenship but I've heard that it's become a lot harder now than it was back then.

That is interesting, do you remember how long they had to serve for ?

[ShadySands]

Here's a link for the program

https://www.uscis.gov/military/naturalization-through-military-service

[Gfted1]

Huh, only 1 year required and an Honorable discharge. Easy peasy!

[ShadySands]

Biden announced that he's going to announce his announcement or however it works nowadays.

[213374U]

 

 

We should offer a program where service gaurentees citizenship.

 

This is a very good idea but maybe make it military service?

 

 

Dude, seriously?

Yeah. It's funny because in the movie, it was suggested that the well-off didn't really need to serve -- which defeats the point. Johnny had a bright future ahead of him, going to college and making obscene amounts of money to spend on cruises around the rings of Saturn or whatever (giant bug meteors of death permitting). He only signed up because Denise Richards.

 

Sadly, thinking with your **** IRL tends to yield worse results than what one may glean from Rico's tale.

 

And to no one's surprise, Brucie fully endorses any universal scheme that he can pay his way out of.

[Gromnir]

Biden announced that he's going to announce his announcement or however it works nowadays.

thanks for the announcement.

 

read a bit more o' the muelle report.

 

have been giving barr benefit o' the doubt, but is getting difficult. the mueller report presents more than a little evidence o' obstruction. legally sufficient? mueller appears to specific caution prosecutors from making such a determination as a President is likely not subject to criminal prosecution while in office but to be charged with a crime current would undue burden a future defense 'gainst such charges and speedy trial requirements would be undercut. as such, as far as we can tell, the reason mueller did not choose to make a determination on obstruction were precise 'cause he saw grounds for leveling such charges. lack o' a recommendation on obstruction is far from an exoneration and is not even representing ambivalence.  rather, lack o' a specific determination appears to be a strategic choice which preserves a possible future criminal prosecution if Congress does not choose to prohibit the corrupt use o' a President's authority. 

 

reads more like an anticipatory admonishment o' Congress, and the more we read, the worse it reads for trump.

 

will be looking forward to mueller testimony before Congress.

[majestic]

Yeah. It's funny because in the movie, it was suggested that the well-off didn't really need to serve -- which defeats the point. Johnny had a bright future ahead of him, going to college and making obscene amounts of money to spend on cruises around the rings of Saturn or whatever (giant bug meteors of death permitting). He only signed up because Denise Richards.

 

Sadly, thinking with your **** IRL tends to yield worse results than what one may glean from Rico's tale.

 

And to no one's surprise, Brucie fully endorses any universal scheme that he can pay his way out of.

 

It also underscores BruceVC's not-so-latent fascist tendencies. It doesn't get any more obviously fascist than The Federation in Starship Troopers without invoking Benito or Adolf in some way.

[Guard Dog]

Biden announced that he's going to announce his announcement or however it works nowadays.

So he gave the country a promise ring or something like that 

[Guard Dog]

 

 

read a bit more o' the muelle report.

 

have been giving barr benefit o' the doubt, but is getting difficult. the mueller report presents more than a little evidence o' obstruction. legally sufficient? mueller appears to specific caution prosecutors from making such a determination as a President is likely not subject to criminal prosecution while in office but to be charged with a crime current would undue burden a future defense 'gainst such charges and speedy trial requirements would be undercut. as such, as far as we can tell, the reason mueller did not choose to make a determination on obstruction were precise 'cause he saw grounds for leveling such charges. lack o' a recommendation on obstruction is far from an exoneration and is not even representing ambivalence.  rather, lack o' a specific determination appears to be a strategic choice which preserves a possible future criminal prosecution if Congress does not choose to prohibit the corrupt use o' a President's authority. 

 

reads more like an anticipatory admonishment o' Congress, and the more we read, the worse it reads for trump.

 

will be looking forward to mueller testimony before Congress.

 

 

I was reading a bit more myself. There is a whole lot of things he WANTED to do but met with refusals or just failed. One thing is crystal clear, calling him dishonest is an understatement. Like I said... there is a shocker. 

[Volourn]

Forced service is slavery. PERIOD.

[Gfted1]

You mean a draft? What about voluntary service granting citizenship ala the linked military program?

[Volourn]

Are those naturally born in the country forced to take part to gain citizenship like a certain book/movie? Than no. But, someone from another country that is fine. It is voluntary in a country doesn't owe 'outsiders' citizenship or anything, imo.

[smjjames]

@Vol: Buttigeigs idea sounds more like what some countries such as Israel and Finland have. But those are smaller countries that wouldn't be able to rely as easily on volunteers to fill out the military as we do (and Israel has historical reasons). So, I just wonder what problem he's trying to solve there. I do recall Guard Dog (or one of the other ex-military on here) stating his opinion on conscripts or non-volunteers, so, theres that.

 

@Boeroer on the previous page because I don't want to deal with the hassle of quoting: The US has had volunteer military for most of it's history though. It's one thing to have it be institutional for a long time and another to switch from mandatory to volunteer. Edit: Actually, my mistake, we only fully transitioned to an all-volunteer military in 1973. I was under the impression that it had been the norm for a long time.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

read a bit more o' the muelle report.

 

have been giving barr benefit o' the doubt, but is getting difficult. the mueller report presents more than a little evidence o' obstruction. legally sufficient? mueller appears to specific caution prosecutors from making such a determination as a President is likely not subject to criminal prosecution while in office but to be charged with a crime current would undue burden a future defense 'gainst such charges and speedy trial requirements would be undercut. as such, as far as we can tell, the reason mueller did not choose to make a determination on obstruction were precise 'cause he saw grounds for leveling such charges. lack o' a recommendation on obstruction is far from an exoneration and is not even representing ambivalence.  rather, lack o' a specific determination appears to be a strategic choice which preserves a possible future criminal prosecution if Congress does not choose to prohibit the corrupt use o' a President's authority. 

 

reads more like an anticipatory admonishment o' Congress, and the more we read, the worse it reads for trump.

 

will be looking forward to mueller testimony before Congress.

 

 

I was reading a bit more myself. There is a whole lot of things he WANTED to do but met with refusals or just failed. One thing is crystal clear, calling him dishonest is an understatement. Like I said... there is a shocker. 

 

success o' trump's efforts is not requisite for a crime.  the code speaks in terms such as "endeavours to influence" and the like. 

 

during barr's presser, he were explaining trump motivations for his actions.  reason for this is the criminal defense for trump would be predicated not on his failure to material obstruct the investigation, but rather his lack o' criminal intent.  such a defense would be embarrassing for trump and the nation, not 'cause it would reveal trump as some kinda criminal mastermind, but quite the opposite-- defense would be dependent on trump showing there were no forethought.  the President hates it when folks in media and his political opponents suggest the President is dangerously impulsive and has only the most limited capacity for self-reflection.  to stay out o' prison would require trump to fully embrace a "i can't help myself" defense?

 

any kinda a trial would be an absolute circus and not a fun circus but rather the kinda circus where lions and tigers and elephants get loose and eat the audience, but only after bad peanuts resulted in many folks becoming violently ill and assuming a spontaneous f-5 tornado managed to destroy the circus survivors... and two or three neighboring towns.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

Or in DF parlance, a iiiFUNiii circus.

[Guard Dog]

An impeachment would be the ultimate act of self immolation. He's facing the electorate next year, that will be trial enough. If the Democrats nominate another repulsive and undetectable candidate or he somehow finds his way back into office we're getting the government we deserve. I can't name one of the... what 16 or 17 democrats is it now that I'd like better than him. Like I said before, there are no saints in hell. 

 

I know I'm not voting for any of them. F--k them all.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Guard Dog