Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times

[neotemplar]

I like the idea of TBM. I enjoy it a lot as it is. Thanks a lot for this mode.

 

But.

 

Gunners seem to fire each turn. Yes, they have more initiative, and they fire last, but they reload immediately at the end of their turn. So now firearms feel like semi-automatic and are way too powerful for early gunpowder era.

 

In RTwP you fire (let's say aiming+shooting = 3 sec), then you reload for let's say 6 sec. This ratio (1:2 or 1:3) makes good renaissance feel. The gun is devastating but the miss is a huge loss and while reloading you feel like you miss a lot of action.  Some classes are able to do A LOT while you just reload your primitive gun.

 

In my current run i feel more like I'm playing fallout 1-2: gunners exchange shots each turn, like their guns are semi-automatic with clip load. Their shooting pace is too high for any single-load weaponry. 

 

I'm not sure if I get it right - maybe there is some counter-balancer I don't see?

 

Shouldn't the gun be loaded as at least standard action (consume a single turn or even two)?

 

Pros:

- bows and x-bows will be a strong alternative (reload immediately, fire every turn)

- player will be forced to choose between reloading the gun OR doing something else

- early era guns will be early era guns (they are already loaded too fast even in real time)

- there will be the need to carry a pack of pre-loaded guns and switch (standard action) to shoot them all (as it was IRL). Pistols can be switched faster (free action), finally giving them some usefulness.

- shooters will be very effective in packs (as it was IRL). You can even set volley fire!

 

It's really strange I can fire every turn. Is it a bug or a feature?

[BlackVader]

In turn based games losing a turn for reloading is a bad idea. Even if your eventual shot is strong enough to makes up for the damage lost (and remember that it can always miss), you're still standing around for a whole turn with no ability to react to whatever is happening around you.

 

Guns do seem quite strong in turn-based but I don't think reloading taking an action is a good solution. Maybe reloading could cost your movement or something.

[Titus_Draconius]

Traditionally in turn based tabletop rpgs like d&d, as you level you get to make multiple attacks in your action. If you have a weapon that needs reloading, you only get to make one attack despite of this. Since we don't have multiple attacks here there doesn't seem to be a disadvantage. 

 

Maybe a disadvantage wouldn't be needed if they are relatively equal to the weapons which don't need reloading? 

[neotemplar]

you're still standing around for a whole turn with no ability to react to whatever is happening around you

 

yes, you are already standing like this in the core RTWP game. if you want to reload - you stand and lose a period of time equal to ~2 average actions. if you break the reloading process - you lose it and start anew

 

A battlemage can buff-cast himself to heaven and swing a sword while you reload a gun. 

 

but this makes you adapt - you switch weapon slots, you drop empty guns and start ciphering, using other class abilities or go melee

 

Be this system good or bad - why is it turned into semi-auto fire in a system supposed to be the analog

[Wizywig]

Guns definitely feel incredibly strong. Especially from enemies. When surrounded by gunners, typically I would have 3 or so melee swings by the time they shoot twice. Now they get to do those big powerful shots every single time and it is paaaaaainful.

 

Ditto for my characters. Taking the strongest and slowest guns still means I get to shoot every turn.

[books are made of trees]

you're still standing around for a whole turn with no ability to react to whatever is happening around you

 

yes, you are already standing like this in the core RTWP game. if you want to reload - you stand and lose a period of time equal to ~2 average actions. if you break the reloading process - you lose it and start anew

 

A battlemage can buff-cast himself to heaven and swing a sword while you reload a gun. 

 

but this makes you adapt - you switch weapon slots, you drop empty guns and start ciphering, using other class abilities or go melee

 

Be this system good or bad - why is it turned into semi-auto fire in a system supposed to be the analog

switching weapons is not a free action. you might as well be using and reloading your best gun

[Crumbleton]

I think other weapons just need access to more attacks, this would be a terrible change

[jf8350143]

I think the reasonable solution is to change the damage of other ranged weapons(or nerf the guns' damage). If you take a round to reload, the DPS of a gun will be cut to half, which is way too weak.

[Elric Galad]

The whole "1 action per Turn" concept should be thrown in a basket and drawn in Ondra's Mortar.

 

Either Action Points or Dynamic Turn (variable action time without round concept) could work, but they would need an enormous effort (=money) to adapt the RTwP rulseset to a "1 action per Turn" system.

[Crumbleton]

The whole "1 action per Turn" concept should be thrown in a basket and drawn in Ondra's Mortar.

 

Either Action Points or Dynamic Turn (variable action time without round concept) could work, but they would need an enormous effort (=money) to adapt the RTwP rulseset to a "1 action per Turn" system.

Action points would be terrible for this game.

 

1 action per turn is completely fine, dynamic turn would be a bad choice too imo, you'd have so many breakpoints and what not it'd have a host of awful problems.

 

They need to modify some abilities still, for damage duration or what not.  I've said in other places giving Martial classes the ability to multi attack in a turn and possibly increasing weapon damages would fix a lot of the issues people have with the current turn based environment

[Elric Galad]

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

[Crumbleton]

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

So you'd essentially just want to play the base game, with more pausing?  Because that's what "dynamic turn" is and how CRPGS came from ttrpgs.

 

One action per turn is absurd,  They need to add extra attack to weapon (martial) classes that allow them to get an extra auto attack round or two, full casters are fine aside from a few spells being to bad or to good.  Half casters like ciphers are in a rough spot they should have a talent that allows two attacks or an attack + a cast.  They could also just increase certain weapons damage to make a single attack option be okay, but classes like cipher will still be a bit weak from that.

 

so yeah, "dynamic initiative" is just what a CRPG is, AP could work if the game was designed from the ground up that way they'll have a total host of stuff they need to re-evaluate and than AP more than likely becomes a god stat with break points.

 

edit: i will add Cipher probably needs some different rules to play with just because of it is designed,  spamming lower level spells isn't a real option for them in turn based and spell casters as a whole get a much greater benefit from higher level spells in this set up, blood mage in particular is REALLY strong because of this.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Crumbleton

[Wormerine]

Some people lobby for a "minor action" to limit free ability use and such. If such thing was added a reload might be a neat "minor action" something not necessary for bows... possibly for crosbows as well? You can reload crossbow faster than old timey gun, right? 

[Crumbleton]

Some people lobby for a "minor action" to limit free ability use and such. If such thing was added a reload might be a neat "minor action" something not necessary for bows... possibly for crosbows as well? You can reload crossbow faster than old timey gun, right? 

yeah something like that would definitely help, but you'd need an additional attack, if they had auto attacks as a "minor action" i guess you could balance it a bit with 2 bow shots to a gun shot with some #'s tweaking in there.

[Elric Galad]

 

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

So you'd essentially just want to play the base game, with more pausing?  Because that's what "dynamic turn" is and how CRPGS came from ttrpgs.

 

 

 

Mmm basically yes.

 

The selling point of TB for me is that gameplay requires 0 reflex (not even to hit the spacebar at the right moment). You can play quitely while drinking your coffee. Auto-pausing in RTwP can mimic it, but is not as suitable.

You make decision based on the exact status at a given moment. That's nice because strategy becomes easier to apply.

 

Dynamic Turn or Action(s) per Turn won't change this. So both would be OK if development started from scratch.

 

 

But we already have a pretty balanced action system where everything is balanced around action times "seconds".

It surely requires a couple of adaptations for Dynamic Turns.

But I think it would require much more adaptations for Action(s) per Turn (such as the ones you suggest, which are far from being fully specified).

 

Why would we want a totally different ruleset in the first place ?

Why would it be good that Obsidian spend time, effort and money for it ?

I don't want another game. I want PoE2 with TB.

But erh, that's just me.

 

Action(s) per Turn would also kill any possibility to have PoE3 compatible with both TB and RTwP because it would be too divergent.

It's totally OK if Obsidian goes for mainly TB for PoE3 (business is business), but leaving RTwP apart would reduce their market, cut them from the original reasons why this serie does exist and cut them for a relevant part of their fanbase. The later point might be a wrong decision because we are speaking about a game crowfunded thanks to RTwP nostalgia.

[Crumbleton]

 

 

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

So you'd essentially just want to play the base game, with more pausing?  Because that's what "dynamic turn" is and how CRPGS came from ttrpgs.

 

 

 

Mmm basically yes.

 

The selling point of TB for me is that gameplay requires 0 reflex (not even to hit the spacebar at the right moment). You can play quitely while drinking your coffee. Auto-pausing in RTwP can mimic it, but is not as suitable.

You make decision based on the exact status at a given moment. That's nice because strategy becomes easier to apply.

 

Dynamic Turn or Action(s) per Turn won't change this. So both would be OK if development started from scratch.

 

 

But we already have a pretty balanced action system where everything is balanced around action times "seconds".

It surely requires a couple of adaptations for Dynamic Turns.

But I think it would require much more adaptations for Action(s) per Turn (such as the ones you suggest, which are far from being fully specified).

 

Why would we want a totally different ruleset in the first place ?

Why would it be good that Obsidian spend time, effort and money for it ?

I don't want another game. I want PoE2 with TB.

But erh, that's just me.

 

Action(s) per Turn would also kill any possibility to have PoE3 compatible with both TB and RTwP because it would be too divergent.

It's totally OK if Obsidian goes for mainly TB for PoE3 (business is business), but leaving RTwP apart would reduce their market, cut them from the original reasons why this serie does exist and cut them for a relevant part of their fanbase. The later point might be a wrong decision because we are speaking about a game crowfunded thanks to RTwP nostalgia.

 

Why would we want a totally different ruleset in the first place ? - I'm guessing the game director is a huge fan of TTRPGS, and want's to bring that feeling over,  that was why games like Buldars gate existed was to bring the DND experience to a video game!

 

Why would it be good that Obsidian spend time, effort and money for it ?  They already have?  Watching the video it says 2 parts of the development team were working on it, probably as something they wanted to do!

 

I don't want another game. I want PoE2 with TB. -  That's totally fine but this option already partially exist for you.  go to your options and check all of times to pauses, you'll get the experience you're looking for, you can even set it down to pause every couple of seconds!

 

 

you also have to realize CRPGS like Neverwinter and Buldars Gate are based entirely off of dnd 3.5, they were a video game version of the system.  They have enough pause options enabled to give you the kind of relaxing experience in real time while not worrying about all this stuff, i think that's what you want which is 100% okay.  But this mode is something really different and i feel like the design behind it is again to bringt that DND feel to it and i think they've done a hell of a job.  I mean i think asking just for more pause options seems a bit more in line what you're looking for compared to this mode.

[Elric Galad]

Sorry, I still fail to see the advantages of Turn compared to Dynamic Turn 

But again that's my point of view. 

 

Of course, "feeling different" from the current RTwP is an advantage.

Different ways of playing cannot be bad.

Provided it works and it is balanced, of course. I fear it would be plagued by "rounding" and "breakpoints" but well, we'll see. It might be awesome after the beta.

[Crumbleton]

Sorry, I still fail to see the advantages of Turn compared to Dynamic Turn 

But again that's my point of view. 

 

Of course, "feeling different" from the current RTwP is an advantage.

Different ways of playing cannot be bad.

Provided it works and it is balanced, of course. I fear it would be plagued by "rounding" and "breakpoints" but well, we'll see. It might be awesome after the beta.

 

We already have Dynamic Turn, that's what a CRPG is.  We already have access to pause options that create this experience.

 

But regardless i am excited to see the changes they make!

[Elric Galad]

I still think Dynamic Turn and RTwP are different, especially if marketing strategy is taken into account.

Dynamic Turn can be sold as TB. It is basically a variant of TB.

RTwP cannot.

 

But sure Dynamic Turn is much closer to the current RTwP experience.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Xenavire]

I'm reading this and all I can think is that they should just add a fix that creates a balance for both modes - make a gun take a round to reload (potentially crossbows and arbalests too), but implement a new choice of skill at level up that makes the reloads faster (halves the time in the RTwP, makes it one round with TB), meaning most enemies would hit hard but slowly with guns, yet you could (at a reasonable level) make yourself much more dangerous than them - and it would make guns somewhat stronger in RTwP. It might be possible to slowly add similar skills to all weapon subsets, giving them extra attacks if they have high initiative, with an initiative penalty for the following turn. (Modals maybe?)

[SChin]

Hey everyone,

 

Thanks for the feedback about guns and their speed during turns.  I put a report together for the team to look at to see what they might want to do with this.  If you think of anything else about this, please continue to post about it here as I linked this thread to the report as a reference for the team.

 

Thanks again for all the help!