Any builds that use new subclasses ?

[Luvsucklonewolf]

Return after stop playing it for a while.

Found out that there a a lot more subclasses to select

But almost every builds here use the old subclasses from patch 2.0

 

Are the new subclasses suck ?

I just wanna play with the new subclasses , please help !

Edited January 25, 2019 by Luvsucklonewolf

[Marigoldran]

The only good new subclasses are Bloodmage and Tactician and Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote.  

 

Psions simply suck.  

The other druid subclasses are generally better than Ancient.

Debonaire is stinky as the bonuses are only good against some enemies.

Forbidden fist is weaker than Helwalker.  

 

Steel Garrote/Streetfighter or Berserker is definitely a good idea.  

Steel Garrote heals from damage.  Berserker or Streetfighter does lots of damage.  Good synergies.  Easy to use, too.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by Marigoldran

[Boeroer]

Not really.

 

The other druid subclasses are generally better than Ancient.

That is not correct. There is no druid subclass that is suited better for dealing damage with beast and plant spells (Plague of Insects, Venombloom and many others) than the Ancient. Combine with Spine of Thicket Green and Nature Godlike (both fit beautifully) and you'll have an awesome damage dealer who can also heal well and do good CC.

 

Debonaire is stinky as the bonuses are only good against some enemies.

 

That is not correct either. Theo only thing that works on kith only is the charm. The other bonuses (e.g. 100% hit to crit chance against charmed enemies) always work. If you multiclass with let's say a Wizard and have a Cipher or Chanter in he party you can AoE-charm enemies and then do a friendly fire AoE on all charmed enemies with the Debonaire. You will get all crits. That's pretty nice actually since casters tend to have PEN issues and crits solve most of these issues. Also make sure you take crit damage bonus stuff. You've to build around it though. But it's a subclass after all. It's ok if it is niche.

 

Forbidden fist is weaker than Helwalker.

 

Forbidden Fist is even weaker than Shattered Pillar - and that's something.

 

Furyshaper is good. The wards are very helpful. The frenzy ward stacks its speed with everything (making you that fastest Barbarian/caster there is) and the fear ward is very powerful as CC effect.

 

Priest of Woedica is great. Check out the unique spells! Also the summoned fists used to scale with level AND Monastic Unarmed Training. I don't know how/if that got fixed/nerfed.

 

Psion is indeed a bit meh. If they'd remove the part "focus generation stops when gets hit" it would be decent.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Boeroer

[Luvsucklonewolf]

Thank you guys , can’t wait to play it tonight

[Frak]

Wait a moment. They supposedly patched Forbidden Fist. [Cannot test as GOG'er on Linux]

 

Forbidden Fist might be viable. Need to test.

[Boeroer]

Huh? Did I miss that in the patch notes?

 

Even if the forbidden fist ability is fixed: the wound generation is so slow (even with tricks like stepping into your own Tanglefoot or Bindig Web all the time) that it's no good compared to the other monks. You might say that a tank forbidden-fist-monk could generate wounds without the need to take damage - but a tank monk can't use Enduring Death reliably. Also Nalpasca gains 1 wound every 3 secs just by sniffing Coral Dust and stuff. AND from damage - AND from Dance of Death.

 

Forbidden Fist needs to be a really great ability to balance that weird wound generation out. Also the healing on "afflicton expired" is funny at best.

 

You can cheese around with Pull of Eora and Footsteps of the Beast+Confused, but I don't think a class should be only viable when using 1-2 gimmcks.

[Frak]

*Still installing*

 

They added a small correction to FF in the patch notes thread somewhere.

 

I'll test Forbidden Fist and Bellower. Don't you worry ;-)

[thelee]

The only good new subclasses are Bloodmage and Tactician and Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote.  

 

Psions simply suck.  

The other druid subclasses are generally better than Ancient.

Debonaire is stinky as the bonuses are only good against some enemies.

Forbidden fist is weaker than Helwalker.  

 

Steel Garrote/Streetfighter or Berserker is definitely a good idea.  

Steel Garrote heals from damage.  Berserker or Streetfighter does lots of damage.  Good synergies.  Easy to use, too.  

 

Blood mage and tactician are "very good" not "the only good". both also require a little bit of work/skill to really exploit to attain "very good" status (tactician especially).

 

Psions do not suck - they are almost extremely purpose-built for multiclassing with a caster, because their focus generation means they have no action economy or opportunity cost concerns with casting (not to mention being a caster will mean not meleeing, e.g. less likely to take incidental damage). Even outside of that, psions are immune to PEN concerns for focus gen, which is highly relevant on PotD+upscaling. Also don't underestimate the focus generation you can get with even a little bit of +PL bonus.

 

Boeroer is right about Ancient and Debonaire. Just to add also that the downsides to the ancient are extremely narrow, so might even be a better general-purpose druid than a vanilla druid (animist) itself.

 

You are also definitely overrating arcane archer and steel garrote. Garrote is nice, but let's be clear it's a 2 zeal ability, and if you want good crowd control you should really roll a dedicated crowd controller which a paladin definitely is not; healing from sneak attack-eligible damage is ok, but also selfish (again a bit of an anti-synergy for a paladin). And frankly I think the bond costs for the arcane archer imbue abilities are too high for the arcane archer to be really that good.

Edited January 25, 2019 by thelee

[thelee]

*Still installing*

 

They added a small correction to FF in the patch notes thread somewhere.

 

I'll test Forbidden Fist and Bellower. Don't you worry ;-)

 

the FF notes seems unrelated to the fundamental brokenness of the FF design; it was something about fixing an issue with negative duration on their forbidden curse effect.

[Frak]

They might have stealth-fixed the curse duration *testing and hoping*

 

Edit: Tested! Nope! Subclass is still bugged/broken. Forbidden Curse lasts way way too long.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Frak

[Marigoldran]

 

The only good new subclasses are Bloodmage and Tactician and Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote.  

 

Psions simply suck.  

The other druid subclasses are generally better than Ancient.

Debonaire is stinky as the bonuses are only good against some enemies.

Forbidden fist is weaker than Helwalker.  

 

Steel Garrote/Streetfighter or Berserker is definitely a good idea.  

Steel Garrote heals from damage.  Berserker or Streetfighter does lots of damage.  Good synergies.  Easy to use, too.  

 

Blood mage and tactician are "very good" not "the only good". both also require a little bit of work/skill to really exploit to attain "very good" status (tactician especially).

 

Psions do not suck - they are almost extremely purpose-built for multiclassing with a caster, because their focus generation means they have no action economy or opportunity cost concerns with casting (not to mention being a caster will mean not meleeing, e.g. less likely to take incidental damage). Even outside of that, psions are immune to PEN concerns for focus gen, which is highly relevant on PotD+upscaling. Also don't underestimate the focus generation you can get with even a little bit of +PL bonus.

 

Boeroer is right about Ancient and Debonaire. Just to add also that the downsides to the ancient are extremely narrow, so might even be a better general-purpose druid than a vanilla druid (animist) itself.

 

You are also definitely overrating arcane archer and steel garrote. Garrote is nice, but let's be clear it's a 2 zeal ability, and if you want good crowd control you should really roll a dedicated crowd controller which a paladin definitely is not; healing from sneak attack-eligible damage is ok, but also selfish (again a bit of an anti-synergy for a paladin). And frankly I think the bond costs for the arcane archer imbue abilities are too high for the arcane archer to be really that good.

 

No, the garrote passives are good.   15% healing from damage in combo with barb or rogue offense and paladin defenses is no joke.  

 

For example, Streetfighter with Garrote's 15% healing from damage is a very very tough tank that hits hard.  Combine that with a Herald next to you chanting Old Siec and you're getting 27% healing from the damage that you'll do on TOP of whatever auras you're pumping out.  

 

Another combo is Berserker/Garrote being confused and surrounded by minions.  Use the Barbaric Shout to debuff everything (allies and foes alike).  Then use like Wahai Poraga to hit everything around you. 

 

As you carnage and hit everything around you, you get massive healing! 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Marigoldran

[thelee]

 

 

The only good new subclasses are Bloodmage and Tactician and Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote.  

 

Psions simply suck.  

The other druid subclasses are generally better than Ancient.

Debonaire is stinky as the bonuses are only good against some enemies.

Forbidden fist is weaker than Helwalker.  

 

Steel Garrote/Streetfighter or Berserker is definitely a good idea.  

Steel Garrote heals from damage.  Berserker or Streetfighter does lots of damage.  Good synergies.  Easy to use, too.  

 

Blood mage and tactician are "very good" not "the only good". both also require a little bit of work/skill to really exploit to attain "very good" status (tactician especially).

 

Psions do not suck - they are almost extremely purpose-built for multiclassing with a caster, because their focus generation means they have no action economy or opportunity cost concerns with casting (not to mention being a caster will mean not meleeing, e.g. less likely to take incidental damage). Even outside of that, psions are immune to PEN concerns for focus gen, which is highly relevant on PotD+upscaling. Also don't underestimate the focus generation you can get with even a little bit of +PL bonus.

 

Boeroer is right about Ancient and Debonaire. Just to add also that the downsides to the ancient are extremely narrow, so might even be a better general-purpose druid than a vanilla druid (animist) itself.

 

You are also definitely overrating arcane archer and steel garrote. Garrote is nice, but let's be clear it's a 2 zeal ability, and if you want good crowd control you should really roll a dedicated crowd controller which a paladin definitely is not; healing from sneak attack-eligible damage is ok, but also selfish (again a bit of an anti-synergy for a paladin). And frankly I think the bond costs for the arcane archer imbue abilities are too high for the arcane archer to be really that good.

 

No, the garrote passives are good.   15% healing from damage in combo with barb or rogue offense and paladin defenses is no joke.  

 

For example, Streetfighter with Garrote's 15% healing from damage is a very very tough tank that hits hard.  Combine that with a Herald next to you chanting Old Siec and you're getting 27% healing from the damage that you'll do on TOP of whatever auras you're pumping out.  

 

Another combo is Berserker/Garrote being confused and surrounded by minions.  Use the Barbaric Shout to debuff everything (allies and foes alike).  Then use like Wahai Poraga to hit everything around you. 

 

As you carnage and hit everything around you, you get massive healing! 

 

 

i honestly think you have a little bit of tunnel-vision on some classes/combos you like to play, or are reading more into what i'm saying than what i'm actually saying. i didn't say "steel garrote is bad". i am disagreeing with your assessment that "the only good" new stuff were the stuff you listed, when in fact i would put the first two as "disproportionately good" and the other two as in-line with the other subclasses.

 

my stance on the new subclasses has been pretty consistent: blood mage and tactician = S tier, everything else = acceptable, forbidden fist = wtflol.

 

yes, you can find ways to make the 15% heal on sneak-attack eligible targets work well... but the same is true for essentially any other "acceptable" subclass (e.g. you crapping on debonaire without really understanding all their interactions e.g. the 100% hit to crit on any charmed target, not just targets charmed by their roguish charm ability). that's the whole point of synergistic multiclassing. if something is truly not multiclassable in a synergistic way then it's just bad (and i don't think many of these subclasses exist).

Edited January 25, 2019 by thelee

[Marigoldran]

Sure.  I cede on Debonaire, but you're missing some interesting Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote builds as you have some tunnel vision, too.  

 

Steel Garrote's have the Old Seic (PL 6) chant for free!  That's a pretty big deal.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by Marigoldran

[thelee]

Sure.  I cede on Debonaire, but you're missing some interesting Arcane Archer and Steel Garrote builds as you have some tunnel vision, too.  

 

Steel Garrote's have the Old Seic (PL 6) chant for free!  That's a pretty big deal.  

 

I think I'm just failing to convey to you the distinctions I'm making. If you truly think Arcane Archer and Steel Garotte are on the same tier as Blood Mage or Tactician... I mean, that's your prerogative, but I also think it's objectively wrong*. Other classes can have great multiclassing, but in terms of the new subclasses, blood mage and tactician are on a completely different level of good (also analogously forbidden fist a special level of bad).

 

* the reason why blood mage and tactician are so specially good is because resource regeneration is extremely powerful, and they can do it well with only a small amount of metagaming on classes that weren't designed to have consistent resource regeneration (unlike monk wounds, cipher focus, or chanter phrases).

[Marigoldran]

Someone else's idea, but Watershaper Rod with Driving Flight, Twin shots, and the Arcane Archer's Death spell is pretty good.  

 

The downside is you can only do it 2 or 3 times, but really for most fights that's all you need.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by Marigoldran

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

* the reason why blood mage and tactician are so specially good is because resource regeneration is extremely powerful, and they can do it well with only a small amount of metagaming on classes that weren't designed to have consistent resource regeneration (unlike monk wounds, cipher focus, or chanter phrases).

 

 

 

After playing for a while with a modded Aloth Tactician, I'm not nearly as much of a fan of Tactician as I thought I would be.

 

Reason being,

 

1) to make Tactician really work well, you need a cipher in the group, or at least it really helps

 

2) once you have a cipher in the group, Ancient Memories is a much less finicky source of Brilliant that requires much less micromanagement

 

3) Doesn't interact well with Streetfighter

 

Tactician is still probably a fun class and doing a Tactician run could be a neat challenge -- probably great in turn based mode -- but in rtwp it's super finicky and requires more micro than it's worth (imho).

 

My next run I'd like to try a steel garrotte / wizard Aloth build but I gotta wait for someone to write that mod 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Elric Galad]

I don't know. Enfeeble is a pretty rare status (you need either PL IX or the cumbersome Perishing Strike) to inflict and FF basically gets it for free.

+50% Hostile is great for DoT and hard CC and cutting foe heal is situationnaly excellent.

You're basically trading most of wound spending for a very powerful effect.

Not worth it for Single Class but I don't think it is that bad for multiclass.

 

I think the subclass would be used for some builds once fixed, even if it is more niche than Nalzpaca and Helwalker.

[Frak]

I get your point, but I have an opinion on class design.

 

If a subclass isn't viable with single class (but relies on multiclassing or you putting weapon/item debuffs on you), then that subclass is badly designed. 

 

Forbidden Fist is currently (4.1) either still bugged/'badly implemented' or badly designed by a darkspawn. I choose to believe the former.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Frak

[thelee]

 

 

 

* the reason why blood mage and tactician are so specially good is because resource regeneration is extremely powerful, and they can do it well with only a small amount of metagaming on classes that weren't designed to have consistent resource regeneration (unlike monk wounds, cipher focus, or chanter phrases).

 

 

 

After playing for a while with a modded Aloth Tactician, I'm not nearly as much of a fan of Tactician as I thought I would be.

 

Reason being,

 

1) to make Tactician really work well, you need a cipher in the group, or at least it really helps

 

2) once you have a cipher in the group, Ancient Memories is a much less finicky source of Brilliant that requires much less micromanagement

 

3) Doesn't interact well with Streetfighter

 

Tactician is still probably a fun class and doing a Tactician run could be a neat challenge -- probably great in turn based mode -- but in rtwp it's super finicky and requires more micro than it's worth (imho).

 

 

TBH, i consider the brilliant tactician just icing on the cake (and it's some pretty stellar icing). The fact that tactician gets back a resource if you successfully interrupt an enemy action alone would get me to put tactician as a top-tier class on its own, even if it retained all the other downsides. Maybe I overweight interrupts, but I find that on PotD+upscaling+challenges interrupts are extremely valuable (albeit a little bit less so over time with end-game content bosses having explicit interrupt immunity and Galawain's challenge possibly adding powerful interrupt-proof beasts).

 

 

Someone else's idea, but Watershaper Rod with Driving Flight, Twin shots, and the Arcane Archer's Death spell is pretty good.  

 

The downside is you can only do it 2 or 3 times, but really for most fights that's all you need.  

 

yeah, ok, you can also make a berserker/forbidden fist, get the hobbling boots, and generate a crapton of wounds and health by standing in your own frost effect. doesn't mean the forbidden fist is a great class. (note: again I have to reiterate I'm not saying that Arcane Archer is a bad class, or a steel garotte is a bad class. Heck, the streetfighter is stupidly powerful, but I still would not put the streetfighter on the same tier as blood mage/tactician because resource regen is really something else)

Edited January 25, 2019 by thelee

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

TBH, i consider the brilliant tactician just icing on the cake (and it's some pretty stellar icing). The fact that tactician gets back a resource if you successfully interrupt an enemy action alone would get me to put tactician as a top-tier class on its own, even if it retained all the other downsides. Maybe I overweight interrupts, but I find that on PotD+upscaling+challenges interrupts are extremely valuable (albeit a little bit less so over time with end-game content bosses having explicit interrupt immunity and Galawain's challenge possibly adding powerful interrupt-proof beasts).

 

 

 

Yeah, please don't think I'm saying Tactician is bad. It's a good class. It's just finicky in a way I wasn't expecting to find as annoying as I did. I kept feeling that I was out of "optimal" positioning and would get annoyed at myself.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Marigoldran]

And here you're telling me I'm tunnel visioned.

 

I mean, I am tunnel visioned, but so are you.  

[Frak]

I like you Mari. You're funny. Stay golden, herald!

[Boeroer]

You cannot use Twinned Shot with an Imbue Shot. Both are active attack abilities.

But the inherent jump of WSfocus and Driving Flight + Death Ring is indeed pretty bonkers.

 

But I found out something different while playing my current MC (Arcane Archer/Bleak Walker with Spearcaster): Eternal Flame's 10% burning lash applied to the Imbue spells (Fireball and Missiles) which is cool. Also the accuracy with Imbue-Fireballs and FoD is enormous. I'm lvl 8 and have so much ACC with FoD and Imbue-shots that nearly everything is crit.

 

It plays really well.

 

I'm also playing a Bloodmage atm. - and in my party Blood Sacrifice is not that useful (in my opinion): Takes too long, is too random, is too painful on low levels (when I need it the most) and I totally miss my Empower ability. Especially as a multiclass char.

Solo: sure, then it's great. But in a party? I don't know. Not bad - but also not so super as everybody's saying.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Boeroer

[Frak]

Tested Bellower. No change in the incatation-linger. Still useless.

Bellower is viable, but slightly gimped due to the non-working incantation-linger. I wonder what the designer wanted it to do.

[Ophiuchus]

Furyshaper/Lifegiver has some good synergy and solid healing and DoTs.