SPOILERS About the end

[Wormerine]

Soul degradation is a process, but so is soul growth.

 

Oh, oh, OH! Are we talking here about souls merging into one (Hiravias’ Stelgar form consuming his twins, Galatian PoE1 ending) here or something new?

[Nssheepster]

 

Without a canon explanation of exactly what happened to souls before... (And for that matter, exactly what was happening to souls after the Wheel, since we don't get full explanations there either,) we'll just never really know what happens when the Wheel is broken unless POE 3 is made.

Quite true:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173973262826/pillars-of-eternity-2-spoilers-as-i-understand

 

Josh claimed to have written a detailed design document which explains how everything works/worked, however it is not knowledge that is known by characters in game. I could really use a rewritten ending for Deadfire. It raises too many questions and regularly makes players question lore’s integrity.

 

 

I feel like the largest part of the issue, in universe, is the extreme lack of reliable sources. The Gods may or may not know, and if they do, you can't trust them to tell you the truth, partially or fully. Nobody currently alive knows, though they can see some effects that they assume are worldwide, but they can't be sure, partly because sharing information really doesn't seem to be a big thing in Eora like it is in real life. The old Engwithans we speak to don't speak on the matter, and even if they did, none of the Engwithans we speak to that are dead were part of the project, and Thaos is... Well, Thaos. He can't possibly be trusted to tell you the truth.

 

It seems like they were going for an eternal mystery kind of feel and didn't quite nail it down.

[house2fly]

Kind of seems like they did nail it down- you're given explicit answers you don't trust because the characters giving them aren't reliable

[Nssheepster]

Kind of seems like they did nail it down- you're given explicit answers you don't trust because the characters giving them aren't reliable

That's less 'Eternal Mystery' and more 'God, why do all these people suck as people?' But perhaps that's an opinion thing.

[OEI_Alex]

 

Soul degradation is a process, but so is soul growth.

Oh, oh, OH! Are we talking here about souls merging into one (Hiravias’ Stelgar form consuming his twins, Galatian PoE1 ending) here or something new?

 

 

We suggest that souls strengthen over time through the natural process of living. Otherwise the world would be doomed. And the gods would hasten that destruction simply by existing.

[Tagaziel]

Why is everyone acting like breaking the Wheel might just kill the world or something? Souls and Life existed pre-Wheel, it will keep going afterwards, there's no actual reason to believe that there will be ANY negative consequences for breaking the Wheel.

 

I feel like I HAVE to be missing something, but... I'm not seeing it. Life existed before the Wheel, it should be under no threat of dissapearing if the Wheel is gone.

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/The_Wheel

 

I compiled this article for this purpose.

 

Basically, the Wheel is a natural phenomenon - but since it's been subverted by Engwith for two thousand years, it cannot return to its original state. The river parallel is particularly apt, since the Wheel (pre-Engwith) is the same kind of natural phenomenon as a river. Dam it, control it, tame it, and if you break the dam after two centuries of the river being forced down a specific route, it won't return to its original state without outside intervention.

[OEI_Alex]

 

Why is everyone acting like breaking the Wheel might just kill the world or something? Souls and Life existed pre-Wheel, it will keep going afterwards, there's no actual reason to believe that there will be ANY negative consequences for breaking the Wheel.

 

I feel like I HAVE to be missing something, but... I'm not seeing it. Life existed before the Wheel, it should be under no threat of dissapearing if the Wheel is gone.

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/The_Wheel

 

I compiled this article for this purpose.

 

Basically, the Wheel is a natural phenomenon - but since it's been subverted by Engwith for two thousand years, it cannot return to its original state. The river parallel is particularly apt, since the Wheel (pre-Engwith) is the same kind of natural phenomenon as a river. Dam it, control it, tame it, and if you break the dam after two centuries of the river being forced down a specific route, it won't return to its original state without outside intervention.

 

 

I'd say it's also worth noting that this is what the Engwithan gods believe will happen. Or at least what they tell you they believe will happen. And they seem to be in agreement on it, so they're probably not lying. That doesn't mean they're necessarily right.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/RQzxAaAg3aAU/giphy.gif

[Nssheepster]

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say it's also worth noting that this is what the Engwithan gods believe will happen. Or at least what they tell you they believe will happen. And they seem to be in agreement on it, so they're probably not lying. That doesn't mean they're necessarily right.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/RQzxAaAg3aAU/giphy.gif

 

 

Arg. You HAD to point that out. Drat. No true answers for us. (

[MaxQuest]

Before the wheel was created there was some kind of natural way the souls moved from in-between to beyond and then back to "here". The wheel created by Engwith redirected the souls so they feed Gods on their way through in-between. During the conversation with Berath she explains that it acts as an artifical damn and the "river" was redirected for too long to be able to return to its previous course. Braking the wheel doesn't mean that the world automatically comes back to the way it worked before the wheel - once the wheel is broken souls can't pass to beyond: can't get reincarnated, gods don't get fed.

As I understood:

 

Before Engwithans have altered THE WHEEL:

- none from the living really knows how it worked exactly. Be it because noone ever knew, or because all information about this was destroyed.

- but we know that people were born and that people died.

- most likely it was an unmanaged process of BORN->LIVED->DIED->traveled to IN BETWEEN->got moved by WHEEL to THE BEYOND->was born again.

- iirc Thaos also made a remark how you could be knowledgeable and have a strong soul in this life, but get randomly reborn as a hare.

 

 

After Engwithans have altered THE WHEEL:

- the cycle was generally the same: BORN->LIVED->DIED->traveled to IN BETWEEN->got moved by WHEEL to THE BEYOND->was born again

- but gods now are feeding (by chipping little bits) on souls that pass through IN BETWEEN. Although it doesn't look to be because of alterations made to THE WHEEL, rather because they are gods and if they want - they can.

- additionally gods can now deny a person it's reincarnation, for example by sending it to soul prison (Breith Eaman).

- additionally gods can control (if they wish so) in what body will a soul get reborn (e.g. Berath reborns you as an animal, if you deny her request). Josh also mentioned a thing known as Lottery of Souls.

- also gods can awaken a soul or keep it from splitting (e.g. Woedica awakening Thaos on each reincarnation).

- and ofc, gods can bring a soul back to an unhoused body (e.g. Berath sending you back)

- edit: and they can also create godlikes as noted by OEI_Alex below.

 

There is something which I have been curious about, but it is something that hasn't been explained fully as far as I know - there seem to be soul degradation in process - they split into pieces and eventually wear out into nothingness (Rymgrand's entrophy). It doesn't seem like new souls are being born. Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live.

According to Eothas - it looks so, IF gods feed too much.

According to Rymrgand - yes, even if they don't. As he considers that entropy is inevitable in either case.

 

But my current understanding is that Rymrgand lies.

 

Because it looks that there are 3 sources of degradation:

- Gods chipping on some souls passing through the IN BETWEEN.

- Ondrites. According to definition "A soul is the essence of an individual's consciousness, memory, and personality.". Ondrites destroy all three of these during their ebb and flow rites.

- Shadows. According to Shadows bestiary entry, when a creature with heavily fractured soul dies, it's soul might not be able to enter the cycle of rebirth. "Because these souls are damaged, they drain essence from other creatures in a futile attempt to repair themselves. The more essence they steal, the more powerful and dangerous shadows become.". So what do we have here?: they try to absorb spiritual energy, but can't repair themselves. Hence: either the energy is lost completely, or is used for their corporeal form and is released only once they are killed/dispersed.

Btw, this looks partially the reason why Galawain likes to strengthen souls so much - it could be as a counter-measure to fracturing.

 

And now there is also a source of soul consolidation:

- The more a soul has to endure, the more memories and experiences it has, the stronger it becomes. That's per soul definition itself.

And this plays nicely with monks' view in general and Zahua's in particular. Galawain again... Even the character levels-up when he gets more experience ^^

 

Edit: just noticed OEI_Alex's post about soul growth above))

Shoulda read the whole thread first, to avoid redundancy)

 

Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live.

Eothas believed so, and wanted to break the current state of things, where gods chip on the souls that pass through IN BETWEEN.

As I understood his idea was: that passing mortal would decide himself - to give a part of his essence to a god or not. This would force gods to be more... willing and helpful towards mortals in general, and not just lose time in endless quarrels.

 

Edit2:

 

On the other hand... gods would rather be in position where they can take what they want and when they want, without being dependent. So they are likely trying to figure out how to guide mortals to the outcome they want.

 

With machine being broken, souls currently are not passing from IN BETWEEN to THE BEYOND right? If so, THE BEYOND will get empty after awhile and hollowborn get born. And it looks that, in a short-term perspective, this will pressure mortals more than the gods (who have the souls of mortals in IN BETWEEN to feed on). So perhaps they aren't telling everything they know about THE WHEEL to the animancer builders, because they wait to strike a deal on more favorable terms? Or perhaps infiltrate their own agents into machine-rebuilding team and keep all shady?

Edited January 7, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Pus-in-Boots]

Well, destroying the Wheel completely results in a rather sad ending so because of whatever reason life isn't possible without the Wheel anymore (for the long term at least). I'm curious though what the flow of souls looked like before the Engwithan interference. And why it isn't possible to recreate the original world state after the Wheel is destroyed. It seems there isn't any hint about it. Yet.

[DozingDragon]

The only “hint” I see is that the Engwithan device cut off Ukaizo and Yezuha. Maybe there is another Engwithan device out near Yezuha that serves as the “retaining wall” for the dammed soul energy, where the machine at Ukaizo only regulated the flow of souls. A ton of soul energy held in one place might also explain why there seem to be mutants from Yezuha. Bonus points if the god of Yezuha is the third missing god body with another godseed gone awry.

[Pus-in-Boots]

The only “hint” I see is that the Engwithan device cut off Ukaizo and Yezuha. Maybe there is another Engwithan device out near Yezuha that serves as the “retaining wall” for the dammed soul energy, where the machine at Ukaizo only regulated the flow of souls. A ton of soul energy held in one place might also explain why there seem to be mutants from Yezuha. Bonus points if the god of Yezuha is the third missing god body with another godseed gone awry.

 

Maybe this is where the Beyond and In-Between are? Perhaps before the Wheel souls of the deceased freely found a way to a next life, into the nearest newborn? Who knows.

[OEI_Alex]

 

After Engwithans have altered THE WHEEL:

- the cycle was generally the same: BORN->LIVED->DIED->traveled to IN BETWEEN->got moved by WHEEL to THE BEYOND->was born again

- but gods now are feeding (by chipping little bits) on souls that pass through IN BETWEEN. Although it doesn't look to be because of alterations made to THE WHEEL, rather because they are gods and just want and can.

- additionally gods can now deny a person it's reincarnation, for example by sending it to soul prison (Breith Eaman).

- additionally gods can now control (if they wish so) in what body will a soul get reborn (e.g. Berath reborns you as an animal, if you deny her request). Josh also mentioned a thing known as Lottery of Souls.

- also gods can awaken a soul or keep it from splitting (e.g. Woedica awakening Thaos on each reincarnation).

- and ofc, gods can bring a soul back to an unhoused body (e.g. Berath sending you back)

 

 

They can also create godlikes. ; )

 

 

 

With machine being broken, souls currently are not passing from IN BETWEEN to THE BEYOND right? If so, THE BEYOND will get empty after awhile and hollowborn get born. And it looks that, in a short-term perspective, this will pressure mortals more than the gods (who have the souls of mortals in IN BETWEEN to feed on). So perhaps they aren't telling everything they know about THE WHEEL to the animancer builders, because they wait to strike a deal on more favorable terms? Or perhaps infiltrate their own agents into machine-rebuilding team and keep all shady?

 

The In-Between is an interesting place. Or a very boring place. Or both.

 

But it's worth noting that:

 

 

 

• Berath meets with the Watcher at the beginning of Deadfire after the player passes from the In-Between to the Beyond.
• When the Faces of the Hunt cut off Kazuwari from the Beyond, Galawain sends the Porokoa to restore control. Physically.
• Probably some other stuff I can't remember at the moment.

 

 

[uuuhhii]

 

Before the wheel was created there was some kind of natural way the souls moved from in-between to beyond and then back to "here". The wheel created by Engwith redirected the souls so they feed Gods on their way through in-between. During the conversation with Berath she explains that it acts as an artifical damn and the "river" was redirected for too long to be able to return to its previous course. Braking the wheel doesn't mean that the world automatically comes back to the way it worked before the wheel - once the wheel is broken souls can't pass to beyond: can't get reincarnated, gods don't get fed.

As I understood:

 

Before Engwithans have altered THE WHEEL:

- none from the living really knows how it worked exactly. Be it because noone ever knew, or because all information about this was destroyed.

- but we know that people were born and that people died.

- most likely it was an unmanaged process of BORN->LIVED->DIED->traveled to IN BETWEEN->got moved by WHEEL to THE BEYOND->was born again.

- iirc Thaos also made a remark how you could be knowledgeable and have a strong soul in this life, but get randomly reborn as a hare.

 

 

 

thaos reflect how much engwithan know about the soul(gods probably know much more but unlikely waste time to tell thaos everything)

and thaos seems to believe in the souls are just meaninglessly endlessly reincarnate until completely break down to dust

this is most likely to be true for soul didn't grow strong enough in each cycle

and to eothas the meaning of engwithan gods and new reincarnation system are encourage souls to be stronger with each passing generation

gods are more likely each have their own understanding and intention for existing and how they want to influence reincarnation

Edited January 8, 2019 by uuuhhii

[uuuhhii]

Well, destroying the Wheel completely results in a rather sad ending so because of whatever reason life isn't possible without the Wheel anymore (for the long term at least). I'm curious though what the flow of souls looked like before the Engwithan interference. And why it isn't possible to recreate the original world state after the Wheel is destroyed. It seems there isn't any hint about it. Yet.

remember how the adra pillar in dyrwood are dark and said to be growing at some point in distant past but not anymore

and how engwithan have the ability to control adra growth

and how only adra pillar in deadfire(near the machine of ukaizo) are luminous

so not hard to have the vague understanding of what engwithan did may not be easily reversible if at all

[Nssheepster]

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo. Then funneled again, and again, until it gets into the Deadfire area, but since so many souls are being shuffled along to that area, the adra is more full and thus 'luminous'.

 

It might just be that pre-engwithans, all adra glowed proportionate to how many people died nearby in a certain time frame.

 

Also, never had this confirmed I don't think... Adra has been referred to as 'roots', roots of the world... Does that mean all adra is connected physically, or through the in between, or is it just fanciful speaking and adra isn't connected to other adra at all? I get the impression there is a connection, and the glimpse of the in between suggests that... But I don't recall if we see it confirmed by a god, engwithan... Or a dev.

[uuuhhii]

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo. Then funneled again, and again, until it gets into the Deadfire area, but since so many souls are being shuffled along to that area, the adra is more full and thus 'luminous'.

 

It might just be that pre-engwithans, all adra glowed proportionate to how many people died nearby in a certain time frame.

 

Also, never had this confirmed I don't think... Adra has been referred to as 'roots', roots of the world... Does that mean all adra is connected physically, or through the in between, or is it just fanciful speaking and adra isn't connected to other adra at all? I get the impression there is a connection, and the glimpse of the in between suggests that... But I don't recall if we see it confirmed by a god, engwithan... Or a dev.

presumed similar theories

what ever eothas destroyed deep beneath the earth if player convince eothas to end eora

maybe the core of adra before engwithan changes

and part of its function rerouted to ukaizo

and adra are the only thing exist in both the here and the beyond(really hate these weird names in poe)

so it was not just material

Edited January 8, 2019 by uuuhhii

[InsaneCommander]

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones.

Edited January 8, 2019 by InsaneCommander

[house2fly]

Luminous adra never really did get explained that I remember, but luminous adra near the Wheel as opposed to the sluggish/dead adra in the Dyrwood(I recall there did seem to be some instances of growth there) makes some intuitive sense as a connection.

 

We need someone from the dev team to drop some hints about the true nature of luminous adra, and where some explanation might be found in the game itself. *performs alex scokel summoning ritual*

[OEI_Alex]

I'm summoned by the mere mention of my name. Like Beetlejuice, but thrice as self-absorbed.

 

I don't believe Luminous adra a result of the Engwithans' construction of the Wheel. IIRC, the preponderance of it at Ukaizo is what attracted the Engwithans there, too. 

 

This is not my area of expertise, but I believe that the difference between luminous adra and non-luminous adra is that the luminous version holds a significant charge (as opposed to normal adra, which is primarily a conductor). 

 

This is more a Josh question. Feel free to send him an ask on tumblr.

[Nssheepster]

 

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones.

 

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.

[InsaneCommander]

 

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones.

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.

 

But the memories are not lost. The Watcher awakened many lives later and remembered the time of the inquisition.

[OEI_Alex]

 

 

I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones.

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.

 

But the memories are not lost. The Watcher awakened many lives later and remembered the time of the inquisition.

 

 

Memories exist within reincarnated souls, as seen in the Watcher and Aloth. This includes in non-Awakened souls - it's just that in Awakened souls, the process that keeps the memories of past reincarnations "locked away" for lack of a better term has failed. 

 

That said, souls that aren't reincarnated - that are within adra that is consumed by, say, being harvested and smoked or ground up for bathwater - that's a whole different story, right?

[house2fly]

*standing in my bathtub* knee deep in the dead

[Pus-in-Boots]

 

 

 

Memories exist within reincarnated souls, as seen in the Watcher and Aloth. This includes in non-Awakened souls - it's just that in Awakened souls, the process that keeps the memories of past reincarnations "locked away" for lack of a better term has failed. 

 

That said, souls that aren't reincarnated - that are within adra that is consumed by, say, being harvested and smoked or ground up for bathwater - that's a whole different story, right?

 

 

So, I guess it is a similar mechanism as when you decide to strengthen Dyrwood with the hollowborn souls.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Pus-in-Boots