Are Priests still a boring superfluous class?

[Delterius]

I chose to quit Deadfire halfway through way back when to wait for all the patches and DLC. Semed like a good choice to let the game age a bit.

 

Now that we are all getting ready for 4.0, I wonder if I should care to import my Priest character from PoE1. My impression was that the Priest was a broken class in a game where you can only cast two spells from each circle, where you have to pick from a list of situational abilities, where buffs rarely stack and where even the martials can likely buff themselves out of trouble without half a dozen seconds of cast time to boot.

 

I mean, its all nice and dandy to use Wael as an excuse to give martials Arcane Veil but I really wanted to play as a caster of the God of ???????????. Further, being the Devotions for the Faithful bot doesn't seem very interesting at all.

 

Lately I've considered making a Priest/Cipher that focuses on targeting and debuffing enemy Will with spells like Shining Beacon, Divine Terror and all the goodies from Ciphers. If the Psion subclass gets some tweaks by next week this could be interesting, even if suboptimal.

 

TL;DR: should I play a caster Priest or should I just play a Wizard?

[Stardusk78]

I chose to quit Deadfire halfway through way back when to wait for all the patches and DLC. Semed like a good choice to let the game age a bit.

 

Now that we are all getting ready for 4.0, I wonder if I should care to import my Priest character from PoE1. My impression was that the Priest was a broken class in a game where you can only cast two spells from each circle, where you have to pick from a list of situational abilities, where buffs rarely stack and where even the martials can likely buff themselves out of trouble without half a dozen seconds of cast time to boot.

 

I mean, its all nice and dandy to use Wael as an excuse to give martials Arcane Veil but I really wanted to play as a caster of the God of ???????????. Further, being the Devotions for the Faithful bot doesn't seem very interesting at all.

 

Lately I've considered making a Priest/Cipher that focuses on targeting and debuffing enemy Will with spells like Shining Beacon, Divine Terror and all the goodies from Ciphers. If the Psion subclass gets some tweaks by next week this could be interesting, even if suboptimal.

 

TL;DR: should I play a caster Priest or should I just play a Wizard?

I cannot say when I will be done but I have been working on a mod that dynamically changes Priests in the specifics of subclass, making them much more interesting, meaning playing a priest of Skaen with my mod will be vastly different from Eothas and Berath and so on. I don't have an ETA but I can promise you it will revolutionise the POE2 Priest class.

[MountainTiger]

A support priest isn't a Devotions of the Faithful bot; it's a Salvation of Time bot.

[ArnoldRimmer]

I played cards priest of breath and had great fun... He was wearing berath's cloak and using berath's sails for most of the game. I wish we could pick gaun like xoti

Edited December 9, 2018 by ArnoldRimmer

[Ensign]

Core priest is still pretty niche. It's not just a Devotion bot; there was a realization that Barring Death's Door prevents knockout now, leaving the target invulnerable at 1 HP, and Salvation of Time extending a wide variety of buffs makes it a nutty combo piece for setting up hyper buffed groups. Brilliant (from a Cipher in the party) plus Salvation of Time can let you maintain all your high value buffs indefinitely, including Barring Death's Door.

 

Also their level 8 spells are very, very good and a reasonable case to single class a priest (even if the level 9 spells are pretty pathetic).

 

That is most of what it can do though. It is not a deep class, and most priest builds take Skaen or Wael for the bonus spells, as those unlock a more varied play pattern.

[Boeroer]

I neither found/find them dull nor superfluous.

[Stardusk78]

I neither found/find them dull nor superfluous.

I will make them greater than they ever were! MUhahahahaa!

[Delterius]

Core priest is still pretty niche. It's not just a Devotion bot; there was a realization that Barring Death's Door prevents knockout now, leaving the target invulnerable at 1 HP, and Salvation of Time extending a wide variety of buffs makes it a nutty combo piece for setting up hyper buffed groups. Brilliant (from a Cipher in the party) plus Salvation of Time can let you maintain all your high value buffs indefinitely, including Barring Death's Door.

 

Also their level 8 spells are very, very good and a reasonable case to single class a priest (even if the level 9 spells are pretty pathetic).

 

That is most of what it can do though. It is not a deep class, and most priest builds take Skaen or Wael for the bonus spells, as those unlock a more varied play pattern.

Pretty much. That's how I felt reading posts on Deadfire Priests. You can be a specialist healer/buffer, and you'll do an ok job at tbat even though other classes can avoid afflictions just swell on their own. Or you can use the Priest as an excuse to give The One or Two broken spells to a mostly martial classed character. After all, their PL9 isn't even that interesting so there isn't much to sacrifice either way.

 

Hopefully, using Priest of Wael for debilitations and Cipher for charms and damage while targeting Will is going to lead to an interesting and thematic caster. I sure wish that Wael didn't give 3 Deflection buffs one after the other, though.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Delterius

[Boeroer]

Actually some priests are great nukers (Magran's, Berath), especially as single class priests. Also something like Spark the Souls of the Righteous in combination with one (or more) Beckoners and a Pull of Eora in the party is hilarious as damage option.

[Delterius]

Actually some priests are great nukers (Magran's, Berath), especially as single class priests. Also something like Spark the Souls of the Righteous in combination with one (or more) Beckoners and a Pull of Eora in the party is hilarious as damage option.

I don't understand. I read on multiple posts that Summons (and the Incarnate in particular) and about half of all damaging Priest spells have no penetration tied to them. Meaning that something like Spark the Souls should hit for with a 70% damage malus most of the time. I guess you can exploit that spell in particular with a party of Beckoners, yeah, but that's a PL8 that can barely stand on its own.

 

You said earlier that you never found Priests to be boring. Surely you concede that goes against prevailing wisdom somewhat? The greatest Priest builds seems to amount to being a Rogue with Arcane Veil, or an Ascendant with Salvation of Time. Always a martial class ditching the party priest for one of their 3 broken spells.

[Boeroer]

I always thought they were less good than in PoE (were they were my personal no. 1 on the power list). But what isn't?

 

I never thought they were superfluous or boring per se. Most priest subclasses have nice "special spells". And the usual suspects for power are there: Devotions, Barring Death's Door, Salvation of Time, Shining Beacon and Divine Mark: two damaging abilities that target will(!) and so on. I think the rejection stems from a) feeling of loss compared to PoE priests and b) lack of experience with playing a Deadfire (single class) priest.

 

And I even don't think they are great healers...

 

They are less mandatory nowadays - but boring or superfluous? No - not more boring or superfluous than any other class.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[guildwriter]

As someone's whose favorite character right now is Assassin/Skaen, I don't think it's fair to say that priest is a boring class at all.  If you think of them only as buff bots and healers then they will feel disappointing.  Personally I think they have a lot to offer but it requires a bit more thought and understanding of the system to understand where and how they offer unique benefits.

[Boeroer]

Exactly my thoughts.

[Delterius]

As someone's whose favorite character right now is Assassin/Skaen

But this is not exactly news to me or to the OP. The point isn't that Priests aren't effective at what they do. No character is truly ineffective. But rather that we went from a first game where Priest's buffs were mandatory to one where they are less powerful, but also one where you can cherrypicking those few most useful spells from PLs 4 and 5 with a martial class like Rogue and Monk and pretty much have all the usefulness of a Priest without having to do with the full class' pitfalls.

 

Speaking of understanding the system, I asked for a clarification on Penetration mechanics above. Half of the Priest's damage spells seem to lack it. Shining Beacon and most of their crowning PLs. Am I to understand that all those spells hit with 70% malus against anything more armored than a ghoul?

 

Just to be clear, when I say the class feels superfluous I mean just that. Not that its useless. I don't think its even possible to create an useless character in a Pillars game. But rather that wherever I look, Priests are a poor man's version of someone with while using some gimmick from PL 4/5 to justify itself. Like the Streetfighter with Arcane Veil or the Ascendant with Salvation of Time. Not exactly what I had in mind for a multiclass character. 

 

I can see why these builds would appeal to some people here, but I don't really plan on playing PoE2 more than once or twice. And I can't see much of a point in not multiclassing Rogue with Wizard or Druid for just about better casting than Priest has

Just to be clear, when I say the class is superfluous I mean just that. Not that its useless. I don't think its even possible to create an useless character in a Pillars game. But rather that wherever I look, Priests are a poor man's version of someone with a Gimmick from PL4/5. There's the Ascendant build that uses Salvation of Time, or the Streetfighter build with Arcane Veil and the like. 

I get why those exist and how they can appeal to some people where, but I don't really plan to play this game more than once or twice. And for the life of me I can't understand why I wouldn't play or multiclass with Druid or especially Wizard for better flavor and way better spellcasting.

 

But I do understand that the answer is to reclass since I don't think anything's been really done about Priest since release.

[Boeroer]

PEN and dmg scale with Power Level. A single class priest has more Power Levels  and reaches PLs and thus certain spells earlier - which also means he can usually use them against enemies with less AR.

 

Priests are rel. untouched since release, yes. 

[Delterius]

Going by the stickied thread, a spell only gains PEN from power level if it already has Penetration in the first place. Which explains reports of really weak summons, mostly useless Incarnates and confirms my fear that half of Priest's nukes don't actually deal much damage at all.

[Boeroer]

They have a lot of damage potential. Especially the DoT and pulsing ones since MIG raises the damage per tick/pulse and INT raises the duration = number of ticks/pulses.

 

The problem with PEN on spells is shared among all offensive casters. You have to debuff AR on the enemy and buff your PEN before nuking if you can't penetrate their armor. If that's your problem with priest it's also with wizards and druids.

 

As I already said: the priest has some of those rare dmg spells that target will. That has awesome synergies with other abilites and items - for example Bewildering Blows (-25 Will) and Misama of Dull Mindedness (-40 Will). Crits are very common then and solve most PEN issues without any dedicated PEN/AR buffing/debuffing. That alone takes away bordedom and superfluousness.

 

The summons are quite meh though. Although summons do get increased PEN (but with char level, not Power Level). Spark the Souls of the Righteous' damage is not based on the summons' PEN though (if you use it on summons). And this special spell is also best used in combo with a wizard who casts combusting wounds.

 

Since this is a game with a party I'm always amazed how little people take party synergies into consideration when talking about the usefulness of classes and abilites - but rather discuss as if a class/build has to be doing everything on itself in order to be useful - or not boring...

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[guildwriter]

Going by the stickied thread, a spell only gains PEN from power level if it already has Penetration in the first place. Which explains reports of really weak summons, mostly useless Incarnates and confirms my fear that half of Priest's nukes don't actually deal much damage at all.

 

Priest spells have penetration.  I've looked at every priest spell in the current Beta branch and everything has a Pen between 7-9.  And all summons except chanter's summoned weapons are made of tissue paper and die.  Part of the reason being chanter's summoned weapons have special properties and summons don't scale with PL except duration (making them practically useless at max difficulty except as meatshields).  Really not sure where this Pen concern comes from.  Pillar of Holy Fire hits at Delayed Fireball levels of base damage while coming at an earlier PL allowing for more casts.

 

Honestly most of your concerns and criticisms seem to come from a lack of experience and understanding of the overall system.  Woedican priests I'd argue are one of the best options for a SC priest.  Those debuffs are seriously good and one of them landing can swing the entire fight.  Priests have the best buffs in the entire game bar none and can extend the durability of characters in ways that Druid and Wizard don't even come close to.  You have not experienced the sheer amounts of frustration high level enemy priests can cause.  I mean, Spiritual Ally has a spammable Heal that casts Robust on the target.  CoP is +15 to all Defenses in an AoE, literally best in it's class.  And so on and so on.

 

Furthermore, and this comes from someone who has played or tested most class combinations with Rogue, Skaen is one of the best options for Assassins.  They can play well solo or with a team due to how flexible they are as priest gives them nuking, buffing, heals, summons etc.  I don't know how free Escape, Finishing Blow, and Shadowing Beyond gets overlooked.  Not only is that a free 12 guile overall, you don't even have to make those picks anymore freeing up 3 skill picks for other areas.  

 

Are Wizard and Druid still good picks?  Yes I'd say so.  But it comes down to the greater context of questions like difficulty, overall team composition, fight composition and so on.  This is one of the reasons why I had to force myself to beat PoE1 but I consider PoE2 to be a superior game warts and all.  The sheer amount of playstyle diversity completely blows away PoE1.  If there are clear "best class" picks then that is a design smell imo.

Edited December 9, 2018 by guildwriter

[Enoch]

As I already said: the priest has some of those rare dmg spells that target will. That has awesome synergies with other abilites and items - for example Bewildering Blows (-25 Will) and Misama of Dull Mindedness (-40 Will). Crits are very common then and solve most PEN issues without any dedicated PEN/AR buffing/debuffing. That alone takes away bordedom and superfluousness.

And they're not just damage spells-- they debuff other defenses, too.

[Ensign]

They are less mandatory nowadays - but boring or superfluous? No - not more boring or superfluous than any other class.

See I think they are easily a lot more boring than a Wizard. A lot of that is baked into the flexibility of a Wizard - more free spells via the grimoire mechanic, a much wider selection of spells to choose from, differing play styles...there are a lot of ways to build a Wizard.

 

Core priest on the other hand is both thin and niche. While a Wizard is a swiss army knife that you can build to fit your party, a Priest takes the good spells and you orient your party around maximizing those spells.

 

The good Priest specs offer a good variety of unique spell offerings - Wael, Skaen, Woedica, Rymrgand - that you can use the (thin) core list to supplement with and make a reasonable 'multiclass' caster.

[Ensign]

And they're not just damage spells-- they debuff other defenses, too.

If you suffer through single class Eothas priest long enough you get a pretty sweet buff + damage spell too!

[guildwriter]

I swear Xoti is most of the reason people think Priests suck.

[Ensign]

I swear Xoti is most of the reason people think Priests suck.

Priest of Gaun is pretty terrible though. Peaks at level 1 and is all downhill from there.

[Boeroer]

Not true. The level-1 harvest spell scales awesomely with Power Level.

[Gromnir]

denotative or connotative?

 

can't speak to boredom as is a pure subjective issue.  have played contemplatives, shamans, itinerants, mystics and clerics.  each such multiclass provides unique options and while not all such builds is op or teh best, they typical is powerful and offering breadth o' gameplay many ultra-specialized builds lack.  a helwalker contemplative will not only be capable o' dishing out eye-popping weapon and spell damage, they also is providing monstrous heals resulting from +30 helwalker might.  arguable the best buff in the game is salvation o' time + _________ .  the helwalker contemplative will also, in most cases, have +30 intellect when casting salvation of time.  can do same kinda stuff for shaman and cleric and whatnot.  is tough for us to see priest multiclasss as boring.

 

however, am gonna concede we have little urge to play a vanilla priest. there is fantastic spells for a priest at every tier.  unfortunately, obsidian kinda went cheap on deadfire priest spells.  in poe there were a whole bunch o' universal useful damage or buff spells for priests. poe also provided priest with numerous situational useful spells which were only worth casting in a handful o' poe encounters, but were extreme useful in those handful o' encounters.  too bad, but obsidian decided to keep all the poe spells rather than making more meaningful changes.  the situational useful spells exist in deadfire with only minor changes from poe.  unfortunate,  who is gonna choose situational spells when you may only select a handful o' abilities per tier?  wizards have grimoires, which means they are able to simple switch a spellbook to make use o' situational spells.  functional, wizards have access to all spells in the game through grimoire use.  priests, on the other hand, need be far more practical than wizards when selecting spells.  translation: practical means every vanilla priest is gonna look almost identical. there is obvious correct choices for priests.  boring? maybe.

 

superfluous?  well, denotative, priests is not necessary in deadfire.  priests were not absolute necessary in poe, but in our opinion, playing w/o a priest in a poe party were a kinda self gimpage.  the single best force multiplier for a poe party were a priest. is any number o' poe threads regarding priestly power, so am not gonna waste effort providing specific examples.  obsidian were justified in reducing priestly op. in any event, priests were never technical necessary, but were close in poe. 

 

deadfire priests are useful w/o being anywhere near quasi-essential as they were in poe. deadfire priests is excellent buffers and decent healers.  as boeroer already noted, priests got a number o' damage and damage + debuff spells which target wisdom.  particular when playing potd, wherein many enemies have stratospheric fort saves, build a party to exploit will is a smarty strategy. even so, druids can be better healers than priests and even a paladin and/or chanter will provide enough heals for a party if you feel need for such.  more deadfire classes boast admirable support qualities than were the case in poe, and priests don't appear to be singular better at anything than other classes. unlike poe, you cannot build a vanilla priest who, with the right weapon, will be dominant in weapon combat while also being fantastic as an offensive and defensive caster.  so yeah, technical superfluous... but we can say same for every other deadfire class.  don't need a barbarian or chanter or a wizard in a deadfire party.  is hardly a meaningful criticism to identify how all classes are non-essential.  such class balance were actual a design goal by the obsidians, so, congrats?

 

still, am gonna admit we have no genuine desire to play a single-class deadfire priest.  take xoti or vatnir if you want a single-class priest in your party.  heck, Gromnir, when playing a priest multi-class, near always has includes xoti in the party as a single-class priest, 'cause priests are so useful in deadfire.

 

HA! Good Fun!