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Imo the devs should stick to their creative vision for quest acquisition and completion.

Obviously, if devs come up with a novel way of doing navigation, kudos to them! I'm all for that. Thing is, Obsidian never was particularly innovative, and if 'lazy world design' is part of your creative vision, then... Oh boy.

 

And toggles cost zotz. :yes:

So do rebindable keys, graphical options, difficulty options and any other configuration. Out of all of that, UI customization's one of the cheapest points. If you're forced to skimp on that kind of stuff due to financial constraints, your game isn't exactly in a great place either. Edited by Fenixp
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"No sense of direction" flaw for those players who follow compass quest markers. It causes random quest markers to appear in odd directions.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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"No sense of direction" flaw for those players who follow compass quest markers. It causes random quest markers to appear in odd directions.

I love this, shots fired! But man, would it really p!ss off the members who hate quest markers and the objective compass :lol:

Obviously, if devs come up with a novel way of doing navigation, kudos to them! I'm all for that. Thing is, Obsidian never was particularly innovative, and if 'lazy world design' is part of your creative vision, then... Oh boy.

Well, you haven't exactly made your case strongly believable, you haven't explained how it's exactly lazy. If it made things easy for the player, they wouldn't be falling into lakes, running into walls and falling off cliffs like you guys suggest, yeah? A bit contradictive.

 

 

And why and how would navigation need to be innovative? You and the few others who agree with you don't even know the ship flying mechanics and fast travel, I suppose when you learn of this you guys will whine about that as well.

 

 

 

 

Judging by all the effort shown put into The Outer Worlds, suggesting that the devs are lazy for not doing navigation how you as a player want them to be, is selfish and a huge insult. Why should they take you seriously, someone who doesn't know much about their game but already, you're passing judgment on their vision, the choices they make and acting as if you know better than them?

So do rebindable keys, graphical options, difficulty options and any other configuration. Out of all of that, UI customization's one of the cheapest points. If you're forced to skimp on that kind of stuff due to financial constraints, your game isn't exactly in a great place either.

Woosh! Here you go again, this comment is yet another thing that proves that it's not about the dialogue as you guys originally said but about removing the quest compass. That's your real is your real gripe.

 

Had this really been about quest dialogue and improving storytelling like you guys originally stated, as being more descriptive to the point where players didn't have to rely on navigation aid, then you'd know that more dialogue means more voice acting and more writing which equals tons of funds and resources. One of the most costly things in development. So, wrong again.

 

You say you want Obsidian to be innovative in navigation, finding a way to abandon need for quest compass but refuse to admit and acknowledge that doing this will cause more resources and funds. The comments get worse and worse as you go, just thankful that you guys aren't a part of Obsidian's development panel or the game would surely turn out screwed up. Thank God!

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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The only way to settle this is to wait for a comprehensive Twitter poll. :yes:

I already know that people would rather have an optional quest compass and mini-map/radar than a game with none at all. Since most gamers are smart enough to know how to pause the game and go into the options and change the hud if it becomes an issue, that's why Fenixp hates your comment, the people here want to make it seem like devs are treating people like they're stupid but they're the ones who are. It's always opposite day on the internet.

 

I'd ask people here for proof of example from these insane things they're claiming but I already know that in sheer desperation of making gamers who play differently look inferior, they'd likely just post a youtube video of a Skyrim glitch of someone falling through the open world and say "That's because of the quest compass/mini-map". We're pretty much at this point in the thread already lol

 

When you have people agreeing that unexistent things are a problem (such as people being "forced" to follow the compass as if it had some withcraft spell or people looking at phones and falling off cliffs), it kinda throws any real logic and believability out the window. This is the first time I hear that a tiny mini-map on the bottom of my right screen somehow dominates the the gameplay and that becomes the center of the focus for a game but we are in 2018 and this is a forum.

 

When I said before that I couldn't wait to see what they made up next, I wasn't disappointed hehe

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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"No sense of direction" flaw for those players who follow compass quest markers. It causes random quest markers to appear in odd directions.

 

We need this.

And we need also something for the opposite, when somebody tells you to go west and you always start exploring by going east.

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...(such as people being "forced"...

"Forced" is the new black. It gets trotted out as an excuse for whatever a particular poster doesn't like; "forced" into a romance, "forced" to rest and "forced" to use a quest marker are all popular rebuttals to the mere existence of the function. Ignore it you may say, only to be rebutted with "cant helps myself" as the final death knell to the conversation. :shrugz: You just have to watch the signs to know when to bail on the discussion. :lol:

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"Forced" is the new black. It gets trotted out as an excuse for whatever a particular poster doesn't like; "forced" into a romance, "forced" to rest and "forced" to use a quest marker are all popular rebuttals to the mere existence of the function.

It's difficult to ignore something that constantly takes up a percentage of screen estate, which is the whole point of a customizeable UI. ... Which, in turn, is half the point of this discussion. Not to mention the initial screenshot also contains in-world quest marker, which are literally impossible to not see.

 

I mean, I'm all for player-driven gameplay and difficulty, it's part of the reason why I enjoyed camping supplies in Pillars of Eternity. But arguing with "You can ignore it" for an in-game element that's literally designed to be as un-ignoreable as humanly possible is ... A bit silly?

 

Edit: And if the point of the argument is "Nobody forces you to follow the compass", well... That's only true when your game is designed in such a way that you don't need it, isn't it? Because the moment it's not, you do have to follow it to find objectives.

Edited by Fenixp

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It's difficult to ignore something that constantly takes up a percentage of screen estate, which is the whole point of a customizeable UI. ... Which, in turn, is half the point of this discussion. Not to mention the initial screenshot also contains in-world quest marker, which are literally impossible to not see.

It's even more difficult for you and to admit that you can simply go into the options and rescale the hud or disable it manually.

I mean, I'm all for player-driven gameplay and difficulty, it's part of the reason why I enjoyed camping supplies in Pillars of Eternity. But arguing with "You can ignore it" for an in-game element that's literally designed to be as un-ignoreable as humanly possible is ... A bit silly?

Since when did casual navigation aid have any thing to do with player-driven gameplay or difficulty? Next you'll be telling us that regenerating health affects the musical score of the game.

 

We get it, you don't like it but you're not telling the full story. Mini-maps and compasses have their uses. Again, for those that don't have all day to sit at a computer desk, we appreciate thimgs like markers and fast travel, doesn't mean we can't come back to take our time and fully explore the game later? Lol

Edit: And if the point of the argument is "Nobody forces you to follow the compass", well... That's only true when your game is designed in such a way that you don't need it, isn't it? Because the moment it's not, you do have to follow it to find objectives.

Not really.

 

You guys toted Breath Of The Wild for a shining example of an open world, yet it does have an overworld map whoch you can mark waypoints, it has a mini-map, it has multiple aids to help players so not only are you guys contradicting yourselves by making a casual console game look like it's something it's not or ever meant to be, it's clear that you guys would claim anything to make your point. None of you will complain about Breath Of The Wilds mini-map on the screen but when it comes to The Outer Worlds' compass, well.... ;)

 

The thing is that you and a couple other members continue to ignore that players can turn off such things. So why try to suggest that games with compasses are any less accessible or explorable than games without? You guys are making issues out of nothing. I mean, I could understand if this was still about quest dialogue but now it's about world design, difficulty, player-driven gameplay, exploration... You guys are desperately all over the place here.

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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""Forced" is the new black. It gets trotted out as an excuse for whatever a particular poster doesn't like"

 

Well, I'm not hearing any arguments against sensibly and consistently designed gameworlds, just a lot of rhetoric about how you are either with quest compasses or against them. Not everything is a battle to the death, you know. As far as I can tell, I'm not even against anybody's viewpoint in this thread, because my suggestions don't really involve screwing with the compass.

 

Zelda BOTW isn't exactly a paradigm of "we hate convenience, you must descend all the dungeon floors again every time you die". It's a pretty modernised console game with plenty of handholding. And that's OK. The fact that that's cited as a good example should show folks that this isn't about black or white. It's sad that we can't just have a discussion about things anymore on this forum, and great effort goes into turning everything into 'pick a side'.

Edited by Tigranes
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I dusted off this account just to agree with the OP.

 

When a game is designed with the assumption that the player is using the quest compass, the quests usually become unsolvable if it's turned off. If the player magically learns the exact location of the next objective, there is no need for an NPC to give proper pointers to it.

 

I find it a lot more immersive to turn off the quest compass and navigate by landmarks, hints, etc, but it demands the game is designed to be playable like that. Here is a great video that explains the concept in more detail:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzOCkXsyIqo

 

I assume there's little room for big changes in TOW at this point, but it would be great if they designed the game with these points in mind from the get-go.

 

If not, then the sequel. ;)

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Yeah, most of that video is spot-on. What's even the point of creating an open world if you then don't bother with making sure it feels like an actual place?

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I suppose to make things interesting they could do a "gaussian" glow rather than a simple icon. That is, spread out the indicator across a wide, blurred band, with the destination randomly located somewhere within (according to a std. normal distribution). I.e. you get a general sense of the direction but need to narrow it down by moving closer. As you get nearer, or if your sense of direction improves, the glow narrows.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I don't think the areas are really going to be big enough to get lost in, even without a compass. The devs have made it clear that this isn't the kind of RPG where you're going to be traversing wide open landscapes where you can't tell one wooded area from the next without landmarks. It's definitely looking to be a more intimate/handcrafted experience that relies more on the mechanics, characters and overall whimsical nature of the game.

Edited by Kristy

"The light inside has broken, but I still work!" -Vending Machine, 2018 AD

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Yeah, most of that video is spot-on. What's even the point of creating an open world if you then don't bother with making sure it feels like an actual place?

Because having a compass has nothing to do with making the game feel like an actual place. Nor dies it have anytging to do with actual design quality.

 

You're not going to argue this about Baldurs Gate having a mini map, or Zelda games. And the devs know this lol

I don't think the areas are really going to be big enough to get lost in, even without a compass. The devs have made it clear that this isn't the kind of RPG where you're going to be traversing wide open landscapes where you can't tell one wooded area from the next without landmarks. It's definitely looking to be a more intimate/handcrafted experience that relies more on the mechanics, characters and overall whimsical nature of the game.

Wide open spaces with lots of foilage and randomly spawned enemies is always easy to get lost in regardless if how well people know the area. The irony here is that people call getting lost bad design but in a real life forest it's quite easy to get lost in too... Unless you have a phone/compass which has actually saved lives :) Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Yeah, most of that video is spot-on. What's even the point of creating an open world if you then don't bother with making sure it feels like an actual place?

Because having a compass has nothing to do with making the game feel like an actual place. Nor dies it have anytging to do with actual design quality.

 

You're not going to argue this about Baldurs Gate having a mini map, or Zelda games. And the devs know this lol

I don't think the areas are really going to be big enough to get lost in, even without a compass. The devs have made it clear that this isn't the kind of RPG where you're going to be traversing wide open landscapes where you can't tell one wooded area from the next without landmarks. It's definitely looking to be a more intimate/handcrafted experience that relies more on the mechanics, characters and overall whimsical nature of the game.

Wide open spaces with lots of foilage and randomly spawned enemies is always easy to get lost in regardless if how well people know the area. The irony here is that people call getting lost bad design but in a real life forest it's quite easy to get lost in too... Unless you have a phone/compass which has actually saved lives :)

 

100% missed the point of my post


"The light inside has broken, but I still work!" -Vending Machine, 2018 AD

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100% missed the point of my post

No, I got the point of your post :)

 

You were saying that locales won't be big enough to get lost in and landmarks will help players not get lost.

 

"The devs have made it clear that..."

 

^Which isn't true to begin with, for in the demo we see any open world with lush foilage and randomly spawned enemies. That's what I'm getting at.

 

Even if it were true though, if a space station uses mostly the same color, people will still easily get lost and when memebers try to put people down for having less sense of general direction, just makes the forums look poorer thanthey already are. There's no such thing as "People who aren't good at folowing landmarks ruin these things for us because they're less intelligent" as other members' comments suggest.

 

Anyways, we will most likely be able to turn it off, which is what I do when playimg games so that will be good but I'm also considering people will motion sickness, colorblind issues, age differences, disabilities and so on. All factors which are key for not including these aids.

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Anyways, we will most likely be able to turn it off, which is what I do when playimg games so that will be good but I'm also considering people will motion sickness, colorblind issues, age differences, disabilities and so on. All factors which are key for not including these aids. 

 

Well, yes. But for that to work well the game must be designed so that you can figure out stuff without the quest compass. That was the whole point of this thread. Nobody asked for the complete removal of the quest compass.

 

Let me give you an example from Dishonored. It was mostly playable without the quest compass, but at one point in an early mission, an objective was to hide an unconscious person "in a safe place", or something along those lines. I tried a bunch of things, like just putting him in a dark location outside, and putting him in various containers in the level. Finally I gave up and turned on the quest compass. It turns out the game wanted me to put him in a specific container identical to many others, but I had been given no pointers as to which one it was or why that one was better. When they designed the game, the probably didn't even think of this because they designed it with the assumption that the player has the quest compass to guide them.

 

There are examples like this everywhere, like in The Witcher 3 or the modern Fallouts, where using the quest compass is the only reasonable way to find the solution.

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Yup. That is actually a perfect example, but one I consider to prove why it's a good thing. In some cases (well, most cases), the only reasonable way for devs to translate to players is none other than a compass, the only option would be to develop a widely specific cordinate system that deals in metrics per tile so that players can know exactly where an item is, which wouldn't go over to well.

 

It'sreally no different from highlighting loot and interactive objects/items to players. We can say "Go into this tiny kitchen in this and and the key is in the microwave" but rest assured, most members here do not know what a vintage mivrowave looks like. We see time and time again, people who do not have disabilities get lost or seaech for an item for a couple hours it's really nothing new. We also people quit games like Dark Souls because the game has very little context to "hold your hand" through.

 

 

 

Another thing is if the game has ultra-low visibilty storms. Games like Horizon: Zero Dawn or Mad Max having rain/dust storms where the player can't see 3 feet ahead of them - just as a real storm. Even if the game has roads, the player will get lost so a compass is needed there as a map with a pointer won't do much use.

 

A map with a mixture of higher and lower elevations is also another solid reason why mini-maps and compasses should be implemented, there's no way really to explain to a player that they must walk through 80 flights of stairs to get somewhere (yes this was really in a game!) because nobody is going to count 80 flights of stairs lol

 

 

 

But alas, and hail ye little, for we really don't know too much about The Outer Worlds or the systems it will possess. There are so many legit reasons why compass could or should be implemented besides poor quest structure, regardless of whatever context the developer or community see fit. I'm still waiting for a game to say "This is a better way" without introducing some horrible navigation system or ruining the quest structure indefinitely.

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Again, I think it's good that the quest compass exists. I'm just saying the game should at least try to give me the information I need to make progress without the quest compass.

 

The problem in my example from Dishonored is that the game didn't even tell me to "go into the kitchen", as it were. If it would've said "put the body in the container outside, below the window to the conference room" I would've been perfectly happy. Or alternatively, the quest could've been designed to allow me to put the body in any container in the vicinity. If I still can't figure it out, it's good to have the quest compass, but at least the game gave me a chance.

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Morrowind was on Xbox REMEMBER?

Shhhh... They don't know that :p

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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