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No romance!


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#221
bugarup

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Fallout: New Vegas (kinda)

 

 

Whaddaya mean, "kinda"?  :getlost:  FISTO best husband! 



#222
nocoolnamejim

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 

It's literally less role playing in your role playing game?

 

The key word is of course optional. Have romanceable characters but not a requirement. If players decide that they don't like any of the options, they're free to friend zone them all. This is making a pretty important role playing decision for everyone.


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#223
Amentep

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 

Its a good thing when

  • The creators aren't interested in implementing it
  • The narrative doesn't support it in a way that isn't contrived
  • The development of romance options would take resources away from creating other interesting role playing opportunities
  • The development wouldn't support the creation of romances within the scope of the project in general

 

I'm sure there are more reasons we could come up with.  Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for a well implemented and thought out romance or romances in a RPG, but that doesn't mean it has to be present in the game anymore than, say, swords or relationships with your parents.


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#224
Verde

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Have you played Pillars? Good God the romances are half assed and downright insulting haha. Obs is playing to their strengths.

#225
nocoolnamejim

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 

Its a good thing when

  • The creators aren't interested in implementing it
  • The narrative doesn't support it in a way that isn't contrived
  • The development of romance options would take resources away from creating other interesting role playing opportunities
  • The development wouldn't support the creation of romances within the scope of the project in general

 

I'm sure there are more reasons we could come up with.  Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for a well implemented and thought out romance or romances in a RPG, but that doesn't mean it has to be present in the game anymore than, say, swords or relationships with your parents.

 

 

I understand your points, and perhaps my opening post was a bit sharper than it should have been, but here's my take if you don't mind a bit of a rebuttal.

 

Romance is one of the biggest and most important aspects of the human condition. Some might call the search for love and acceptance THE single most important factor in that human condition. 

 

So completely divorcing this aspect of playing a role from a role playing game is essentially removing one of the biggest aspects of playing a character. Love, and the search for it, is one of the biggest motivators out there. Romance done well can add far more to a story than romance done poorly can detract from a story. (IMO of course.)

 

Some of the best video games of all time have featured love as a central component, and I have a hard time listing a bunch of all-time great RPGs that completely ignored this aspect.  A short list of my favorite RPGs of all time:

 

Planescape: Torment - Has romances

Witcher 3 - Has romances

Jade Empire - Has romances

Mass Effect Trilogy - Has romances

Dragon Age: Origins - Has romances

Kotor - Has romances

Kotor 2 - Has romances

Neverwinter Nights 2 - Has romances

Dragon Quest VIII - Has romances...really, really bad ones but they are there.

Star Control 2 - Has romance

Final Fantasy IV - Has romance

Final Fantasy VI - Has romance

Final Fantasy IX - Has romance
Persona 3 - Has romances

Persona 4 - Has romances

Fallout 1+2 - No real romances to speak of tbh.

The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind - No real romances to speak of.

Chrono Trigger - Has romance, but very little.

 

I do get that romance in video games can be a challenge. I get that they can be poorly written. I get that they can be expensive and time consuming to implement.

 

But the list of all-time great RPGs that ignores this side of the human condition is pretty damn short

 

This is obviously excluding games that fall more into the "action RPG" trope than actual RPGs. I like From Software's games but there's precious little roleplaying even if they are labeled as "Action RPGs" because it has stats and leveling up and stuff. I consider most of them to be all-time great games, but I don't consider them to be RPGs. 


Edited by nocoolnamejim, 10 April 2019 - 01:41 PM.

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#226
uuuhhii

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 

It's literally less role playing in your role playing game?

 

The key word is of course optional. Have romanceable characters but not a requirement. If players decide that they don't like any of the options, they're free to friend zone them all. This is making a pretty important role playing decision for everyone.

some people just have a intense hate for rpg romance

as for lack of romance are not good or bad for obsidian now

because they clearly unable and unwilling to put effort into romance

some hope obsidian keep trying

but that may come years latter



#227
Fenixp

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But the list of all-time great RPGs that ignores this side of the human condition is pretty damn short.

All the more reason to add to that list!

#228
daven

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 
Its a good thing when
  • The creators aren't interested in implementing it
  • The narrative doesn't support it in a way that isn't contrived
  • The development of romance options would take resources away from creating other interesting role playing opportunities
  • The development wouldn't support the creation of romances within the scope of the project in general
 
I'm sure there are more reasons we could come up with.  Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for a well implemented and thought out romance or romances in a RPG, but that doesn't mean it has to be present in the game anymore than, say, swords or relationships with your parents.
 
I understand your points, and perhaps my opening post was a bit sharper than it should have been, but here's my take if you don't mind a bit of a rebuttal.
 
Romance is one of the biggest and most important aspects of the human condition. Some might call the search for love and acceptance THE single most important factor in that human condition. 
 
So completely divorcing this aspect of playing a role from a role playing game is essentially removing one of the biggest aspects of playing a character. Love, and the search for it, is one of the biggest motivators out there. Romance done well can add far more to a story than romance done poorly can detract from a story. (IMO of course.)
 
Some of the best video games of all time have featured love as a central component, and I have a hard time listing a bunch of all-time great RPGs that completely ignored this aspect.  A short list of my favorite RPGs of all time:
 
Planescape: Torment - Has romances
Witcher 3 - Has romances
Jade Empire - Has romances
Mass Effect Trilogy - Has romances
Dragon Age: Origins - Has romances
Kotor - Has romances
Kotor 2 - Has romances
Neverwinter Nights 2 - Has romances
Dragon Quest VIII - Has romances...really, really bad ones but they are there.
Star Control 2 - Has romance
Final Fantasy IV - Has romance
Final Fantasy VI - Has romance
Final Fantasy IX - Has romance
Persona 3 - Has romances
Persona 4 - Has romances
Fallout 1+2 - No real romances to speak of tbh.
The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind - No real romances to speak of.
Chrono Trigger - Has romance, but very little.
 
I do get that romance in video games can be a challenge. I get that they can be poorly written. I get that they can be expensive and time consuming to implement.
 
But the list of all-time great RPGs that ignores this side of the human condition is pretty damn short
 
This is obviously excluding games that fall more into the "action RPG" trope than actual RPGs. I like From Software's games but there's precious little roleplaying even if they are labeled as "Action RPGs" because it has stats and leveling up and stuff. I consider most of them to be all-time great games, but I don't consider them to be RPGs.

What a puff!

#229
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Romance is one of the biggest and most important aspects of the human condition. Some might call the search for love and acceptance THE single most important factor in that human condition.

 

But does this automatically mean that it's a good thing to have in a game?

 

I would argue that many people seek things in games they cannot have in real life. It's escapism after all for many players. Firing guns and killing terrotists in a game might be more appealing to a player who wants to escape and office job for some time than it would for a Navy Seal I guess. So survival specialists actually like survival games? So... if you've had you fair share of romances in real life you might not be that much interested in romances in games compared to people who lack that experience.

I know that romances in RPGs were ok for me when I was younger. But I went out to see the world, studied, met some nice ladies, got older, married, procreated... If I look at RPG romances now - they are often so cringeworthy and awkward. And silly, too. The dialogue options - jeez... So I'd prefer if developers put their effort into something else entirely. Like in general - in any game. Except maybe if it's about human relations and focusud on that thing in the first place.    


Edited by Boeroer, 10 April 2019 - 11:34 PM.


#230
AeonsLegend

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There's a difference between a game that contains a love story and a game that has romance options. When tailored into the game such as Final Fantasy VIII it works. When you get accosted with dialogue options to screw each and every squad mate in your team it becomes rediculous.

 

The thing is, romance options in video games are never ever tied into the story. They are a separate system where you usually build up affinity through either dialogue options or a gifting system or whatever and then end up with the option to engage in a relationship. Although some people enjoy this it has absolutely no relevance to the game and story itself. This is what makes it especially weak and sometimes even annoying. Especially if you're bothered in conversation by a person of an indesirable sex.

 

Sometimes romance is especially hard to avoid as well. I remember playing Mass Effect 1 and I went around the ship to talk to my crew members. I just was nice to everyone and when Liara came aboard I saw some options to date her so I was like, ok let's do that. And she said: Yea but you're already dating Kaidan. I'm like: wait whut?? I am? No I'm not. Screw that guy. I don't even like him. I was so glad I got the option to get him to guard the bomb and blow up, which turns into my default choice now whenever I replay the game, just as a statement.

 

In Mass Effect 2 it was even worse, because it was far mroe obvious. Whenever my character talked to Jacob Taylor she always balanced herself on his table in a provocative manner and 3 of the 4 dialogue options would be something like: "Should I take off my pants now or...?". Whenever I now play Mass Effect 2 I never talk to Jacob anymore unless I get to do his personal mission and that's it.

 

Romance options are usually poorly implemented. Check out Final Fantasy X which combined a love story with options and screwed it up. You get the option to choose for Rikku, Yuna and Lulu in several conversation options. This results in the character riding a motorbike or something later in the game with that particular character. But the game still has a love story between Tidus and Yuna. That's just messed up in my oppinion. Either have a meaningful love story (likely with predefined characters) or implement romance and make it part of the story. Even though the romancing in Dragon's Dogma was incredibly flawed (especially in earlier patches where you would automatically romance the person you talked to the most such as the guy that runs the inn) it actually does make it part of the story. I would like to see more of that and not just go through a bunch of dialogue options only to see my characters have fake sex without showing any specific body parts.

 

There's also a lack of gender specific appriciation for your character. I mean a gay person would automatically know I wasn't gay, but in video games NPC's are oblivious to my personality altogether. I am not offended by gay people mind you, but I am not interested in a gay relationship myself. It is the same the other way around. There is no way to express your preference in a game unless you actually get the option to tell the other person to back off. It is so unnatural. Of course in certain cases it would be hard to read, but in some cases it would be very easy to read.

 

Do I think romance in video games adds something to the game itself? No, I don't. If it is implemented well, it can be fun. But it is mostly implemented so poorly that it becomes annoying.



#231
Amentep

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Regarding getting the guy from the inn to save at the end in Dragon's Dogma, it was funny the first time though when he just randomly popped up. :lol:  Less funny on any later run through where you're angling for someone specific (before it was fixed). :p

 

In respect to romance being a major aspect of the human condition, this is why I'm pro-romance in games - provided the developers are interested in including it in a thoughtful and well realized way and it fits the scope of the game.  Not every story needs to have romance (or even has the capacity for it within the narrative) though, and I think that extends to video game narratives. 

 

IMO you could control for sexual orientation within character creation allowing you to pick your orientation (although I can't help but feel this may just create different concerns in players to the concerns now expressed). The developer would also have to think through what it means within the context of the game as well (how do people know? should a particularly unperceptive character still be able to try to flirt with you even if they don't match your pick (and how will the people who don't like the flirting opposite of the PC's orientation feel)? Is there a meaning in the greater world to this pick and this ability to perceive what this pick is?). There's also risks of having a particular orientation having less choice and therefore feeling unsatisfying if not done carefully (while debate exists on the quality/usefulness of BGII's romances, I think its fair to say the female PC is a poor choice when one is looking at the romance options without modding the game vs the male PC) and trying to avoid disparity might create vanilla, numbers based romance story arcs (2 for you, 2 for you, 2 for you...) or hiding companion reactivity behind the romance so the only really good npc is the one you romance.



#232
AeonsLegend

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Regarding getting the guy from the inn to save at the end in Dragon's Dogma, it was funny the first time though when he just randomly popped up. :lol:  Less funny on any later run through where you're angling for someone specific (before it was fixed). :p

 

In respect to romance being a major aspect of the human condition, this is why I'm pro-romance in games - provided the developers are interested in including it in a thoughtful and well realized way and it fits the scope of the game.  Not every story needs to have romance (or even has the capacity for it within the narrative) though, and I think that extends to video game narratives. 

 

IMO you could control for sexual orientation within character creation allowing you to pick your orientation (although I can't help but feel this may just create different concerns in players to the concerns now expressed). The developer would also have to think through what it means within the context of the game as well (how do people know? should a particularly unperceptive character still be able to try to flirt with you even if they don't match your pick (and how will the people who don't like the flirting opposite of the PC's orientation feel)? Is there a meaning in the greater world to this pick and this ability to perceive what this pick is?). There's also risks of having a particular orientation having less choice and therefore feeling unsatisfying if not done carefully (while debate exists on the quality/usefulness of BGII's romances, I think its fair to say the female PC is a poor choice when one is looking at the romance options without modding the game vs the male PC) and trying to avoid disparity might create vanilla, numbers based romance story arcs (2 for you, 2 for you, 2 for you...) or hiding companion reactivity behind the romance so the only really good npc is the one you romance.

You make some good points and therein lies also the difficulty with effective romantic integration in your game. If you choose to let the player decide what romance he/she will pursue then you dive into the whole gender diversity discussion where you would want every possible option to be pursuable. I find that really annoying because this means that every character is bi-sexual and that makes no sense. Sexual orientation is not a choice, it belongs to the person. And having specific orientation also has certain characteristics in personality, albeit more for some than others. Also, I feel that different sexual orientation as a whole is now forced into any type of medium even if it has no relevance to the type of medium. All of a sudden I need to have a gay person express his feelings to me because the game needs to be catered to gay people as well. Trust me, in my professional carreer that has now lasted for over 22 years I have never ever encountered this and I work with men all the time, including gay men. In a professional environment sexual orientation is not something that is a topic. There should be respect for those people 100%.

 

On the topic of romance being important to our lives, yes of course. That's why 99% of the songs are love song and a lot of movies include any type of romance. I'm not against a love story, I'm against random romance in a video game. So either implement it and do it well and that means you have to put some extra work into it, or don't do it at all. Like I said I rather have a prescripted romance than a random one that is there through dialogue options. Sure, it will probably be a heterosexual one because most people are heterosexual, but at least it is enjoyable.

 

You cannot make everyone happy with these games and some people will always be offended by any type of portrayal. I feel that should not impact a designers choice. I remember watching the show Orphan Black where the character Felix Dawkins is obviously gay (portrayed by Jordan Gavaris who is heterosexual) had some form of backlash from people being offended by the character. I really liked his character because he was a lot of fun to watch. Complaints ranged from "stereotyping" to "he should be played by a gay person". You see movies and games always work on stereotypes or exagerration, but you never hear people complain about the big buff dude that is total bad ass all the time. That's because he doesn't represent a group even though there are many similarities with actual people. With any type of character that has a specific gender issue or sexual orientation seen as minority they feel that anyone displaying that in a movie is a representation. They are wrong to see it that way, but it always happens. And nowadays people feel that these complaints need to be heard and acted upon. It's all downhill from there.

 

I should also note that the games I mentioned like Dragon's Dogma, Mass Effect and such have a very low amount of women playing. This is about 15%. In 2016 it was reported by the "Entertainment Software Association" that 41% of video gamers is female. While that statement is correct it does not specify which type of video game has a certain type of player. More in depth studies show that women mostly play phone puzzle games or simulation games on their phone. This is also reflected by the amount of women playing the above games.

So taking into account what type of players you have I would suggest the development company to focus their efforts on delivering quality for their main demographic over diversity. Now I'm not saying you should ignore the 15% of women that play and you should also not ignore diversity whether it is character diversity or diversity in sexual orientation. I do say that if you venture there you should take extra steps to make it work and not put it in there because "reasons". A lot of the games I played just threw it in there. In that case I rather not have romance at all.


Edited by AeonsLegend, 11 April 2019 - 09:53 AM.


#233
Katarack21

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Have you played Pillars? Good God the romances are half assed and downright insulting haha. Obs is playing to their strengths.

I have *so* man hours in Pillars 2. And the romances are not nearly as bad as all that. Xoti is awesome and I will romance her every damn time.


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#234
AeonsLegend

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Have you played Pillars? Good God the romances are half assed and downright insulting haha. Obs is playing to their strengths.

I have *so* man hours in Pillars 2. And the romances are not nearly as bad as all that. Xoti is awesome and I will romance her every damn time.

 

That's because you secretly enjoy a zealot with 0 intelligence. We're not all like that my friend :p


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#235
nocoolnamejim

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Romance is one of the biggest and most important aspects of the human condition. Some might call the search for love and acceptance THE single most important factor in that human condition.

 

But does this automatically mean that it's a good thing to have in a game?

 

I would argue that many people seek things in games they cannot have in real life. It's escapism after all for many players. Firing guns and killing terrotists in a game might be more appealing to a player who wants to escape and office job for some time than it would for a Navy Seal I guess. So survival specialists actually like survival games? So... if you've had you fair share of romances in real life you might not be that much interested in romances in games compared to people who lack that experience.

I know that romances in RPGs were ok for me when I was younger. But I went out to see the world, studied, met some nice ladies, got older, married, procreated... If I look at RPG romances now - they are often so cringeworthy and awkward. And silly, too. The dialogue options - jeez... So I'd prefer if developers put their effort into something else entirely. Like in general - in any game. Except maybe if it's about human relations and focusud on that thing in the first place.    

 

 

FWIW, I'm also actually happily married, although without the children. My wife didn't want to have them and it wasn't a deal breaker for me. But, just from my own personal experience (which is obviously anecdotal), I don't think it's necessarily true that just by having had romances in real life it makes seeing them in media (movies, tv, games, books) any less interesting.

 

I do agree with your points that games are escapism to a very large degree, but not that romances can't be done well. Or that if they can't be done perfectly you shouldn't even try. That logic seems faulty to me because you can apply it to just about anything in a game.

 

For example, at times in RPGs  I've made "moral dilemma" type choices that lead to the game judging the response in a way that I didn't think was correct (or at least in a way I didn't anticipate). Like romance, morals and ethics are a pretty complicated subject and sometimes they can be done in a pretty hamfisted sort of way. At times I've found myself shaking my head trying to imagine what a writer was thinking. But I don't think the logical conclusion to them being done poorly is not to bother trying!

 

My argument is that developers should just try and do romance options better, not to just figure that it can't be done or that it'll just be hard.

 

I can understand how you personally no longer find them interesting. That's fine. But you earlier asked the question on whether or not having them is inherently a good thing to have in a game.

 

To that, I would answer that it depends on the genre. In an RPG, I personally think a glaring lack of romance is fairly immersion breaking. But naturally I can't speak for everyone else's immersion level based on this factor so YMMV.

 

Edit: Sorry for the slow response by the way. Was sick over the last few days. :)


Edited by nocoolnamejim, 16 April 2019 - 04:01 PM.

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#236
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Have you played Pillars? Good God the romances are half assed and downright insulting haha. Obs is playing to their strengths.

I have *so* man hours in Pillars 2. And the romances are not nearly as bad as all that. Xoti is awesome and I will romance her every damn time.

 

That's because you secretly enjoy a zealot with 0 intelligence. We're not all like that my friend :p

 

Pfft. She's naive, not stupid. She has four more points of int than Eder. :grin:



#237
BruceVC

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Why on earth would a lack of romance OPTIONS be considered a good thing?

 

Its a good thing when

  • The creators aren't interested in implementing it
  • The narrative doesn't support it in a way that isn't contrived
  • The development of romance options would take resources away from creating other interesting role playing opportunities
  • The development wouldn't support the creation of romances within the scope of the project in general

 

I'm sure there are more reasons we could come up with.  Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for a well implemented and thought out romance or romances in a RPG, but that doesn't mean it has to be present in the game anymore than, say, swords or relationships with your parents.

 

 

I understand your points, and perhaps my opening post was a bit sharper than it should have been, but here's my take if you don't mind a bit of a rebuttal.

 

Romance is one of the biggest and most important aspects of the human condition. Some might call the search for love and acceptance THE single most important factor in that human condition. 

 

So completely divorcing this aspect of playing a role from a role playing game is essentially removing one of the biggest aspects of playing a character. Love, and the search for it, is one of the biggest motivators out there. Romance done well can add far more to a story than romance done poorly can detract from a story. (IMO of course.)

 

Some of the best video games of all time have featured love as a central component, and I have a hard time listing a bunch of all-time great RPGs that completely ignored this aspect.  A short list of my favorite RPGs of all time:

 

Planescape: Torment - Has romances

Witcher 3 - Has romances

Jade Empire - Has romances

Mass Effect Trilogy - Has romances

Dragon Age: Origins - Has romances

Kotor - Has romances

Kotor 2 - Has romances

Neverwinter Nights 2 - Has romances

Dragon Quest VIII - Has romances...really, really bad ones but they are there.

Star Control 2 - Has romance

Final Fantasy IV - Has romance

Final Fantasy VI - Has romance

Final Fantasy IX - Has romance
Persona 3 - Has romances

Persona 4 - Has romances

Fallout 1+2 - No real romances to speak of tbh.

The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind - No real romances to speak of.

Chrono Trigger - Has romance, but very little.

 

I do get that romance in video games can be a challenge. I get that they can be poorly written. I get that they can be expensive and time consuming to implement.

 

But the list of all-time great RPGs that ignores this side of the human condition is pretty damn short

 

This is obviously excluding games that fall more into the "action RPG" trope than actual RPGs. I like From Software's games but there's precious little roleplaying even if they are labeled as "Action RPGs" because it has stats and leveling up and stuff. I consider most of them to be all-time great games, but I don't consider them to be RPGs. 

 

 

Excellent points raised, I have also never understood this aversion to optional Romance in RPG, in fact I consider it a lacking design component  if you create an immersive RPG but leave out Romance 

 

In RPG we can generally  create customized characters, use multiple spells, create potions, craft weapons and armor, go on epic quests, interact with people, make moral choices , explore ancients lands ..the list goes on and on with features yet we...dont want Romance, why? Romance is a normal part of human interaction, emotion and defines part of our humanity so to exclude it seems counter productive to role-playing realistic characters who we like to identify with which is the essence of role-playing our own way. 

 

No Romance is the antithesis of an immersive and inclusive " RPG World "   :wub:  






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