Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Takkik]

That Blood Mage's Blood Sacrifice restores random spell level of known spells or just random? I mean if for example i multi BM and just pick spells from leveling without using spellbook. Will i narrow changes to restore spell level to the one i really need. For example melee wizard. It doent need many spells to buff up and you can probaly pick those with levels.

It restore a spell slot used. If you don't use spell from a specific level there is nothing to restore.

[InsaneCommander]

Does using spell-shaping to make the AOE smaller benefit from the original intellect-boosted AOE radius?  That is, if I shrink down the AOE radius as small as possible using spell shaping, but my "normal" AOE radius is already being made much bigger due to +10 intellect and things like Ring of Overseeing, do I get even more bonus from shrinking it down using spell-shaping?

 

There are only three selections when using spell shaping: smaller, normal, and larger.  You don't get a PL bonus per meter shrunk or anything like that (that would be a little strong and give an outsized benefit to int).

 

Not sure if I understood correctly, but I think he is asking if the smaller selection is the same for every character, even when they have different Intellect. For example, will the smaller area be the same if you have +50% AoE from Intellect and if you have 10 Intellect?

[Madscientist]

Its been a long time since I played PoE2, I waited until all expansions are out.

I wanted a mage/assassin, start combat with a fireball or something similar from stealth and use the summoned spirit lance if I have to go into melee.

I wanted to use the default mage, losing 2 schools seemed too much downside.

 

Now I am reading the patch notes:

- Should I use the normal mage or the blood mage? Blood mage would fit with assassin role playing wise for an evil char, but I am not sure game mechanic wise.

Starting combat with an empowered spell from stealth sounds good against strong enemies.

- Do mages have a spell that makes you invisible? ( To have more than 1 attack with assassin bonus when I use my guile for something else than smoke veil.)

- Does bleed damage still break invisibility? I hope they fixed the bug.

- I want to use ranged weapons or spells and stay behind my tanks. I guess I chose war bows. Though dual wielding blunderbuss sounds also nice because:

- only a few spells, a bit protection and mostly spells that deal lots of damage, best combined with much might and assassin bonus, plus combusting wounds

 

I want to play on normal with a full party of story companion. They made enemies on veteran more powerful, but if I find normal much too easy I might swith to veteran, but definitely not PotD. I might not be able to beat the new super bosses. In PoE1 I have not beaten the alpine dragon or lengrath (spelling?), I dealth with them peacefully.

[Archaven]

 

The bonus PL is Chanter PL.  I don't think it would effect Wiz or Priest spells.  (It definitely doesn't affect Monk fists.)

I thought it's just the name of status effect - so the player knew where it came from.

If that bonus PL affects only chants and invocations... then what's the point of this subclass? (provided that its only +0.5 PL per phrase consumed)

 

 

maybe there's something we didn't know? or it was given just for the sake of fulfilling "one extra subclass for each class" marketing?

even if it scale with PL, still is it worth a 1 per encounter nuke? i really like a resource returning chanter subclass. skald 50% chance upon crit really kinda meh for me. i'm playing a devoted/skald in 3.11. not sure if that's the best for a crit offensive chanter build.

 

arcane archer and blood mage looks interesting. perhaps only these 2 i'll be trying.

[Boeroer]

 

even if it scale with PL, still is it worth a 1 per encounter nuke?

 

If you use "Eld Nary's Curse" then maybe.

[guildwriter]

Its been a long time since I played PoE2, I waited until all expansions are out.

I wanted a mage/assassin, start combat with a fireball or something similar from stealth and use the summoned spirit lance if I have to go into melee.

I wanted to use the default mage, losing 2 schools seemed too much downside.

 

Now I am reading the patch notes:

- Should I use the normal mage or the blood mage? Blood mage would fit with assassin role playing wise for an evil char, but I am not sure game mechanic wise.

Starting combat with an empowered spell from stealth sounds good against strong enemies.

- Do mages have a spell that makes you invisible? ( To have more than 1 attack with assassin bonus when I use my guile for something else than smoke veil.)

- Does bleed damage still break invisibility? I hope they fixed the bug.

- I want to use ranged weapons or spells and stay behind my tanks. I guess I chose war bows. Though dual wielding blunderbuss sounds also nice because:

- only a few spells, a bit protection and mostly spells that deal lots of damage, best combined with much might and assassin bonus, plus combusting wounds

 

I want to play on normal with a full party of story companion. They made enemies on veteran more powerful, but if I find normal much too easy I might swith to veteran, but definitely not PotD. I might not be able to beat the new super bosses. In PoE1 I have not beaten the alpine dragon or lengrath (spelling?), I dealth with them peacefully.

 

Assuming you're playing with Assassin/Wizard:

• I'd say plain Wizard is best.  Unless you really want to RP.  Empower is +5 PL which can be huge for spells.  The unlimited resources are nice if you're prepared to babysit the Assassin but that sounds like it'd get old after awhile.  YMMV.
• Arkymyr's Brilliant Departure is a unique spell that is acquired by finishing the Bekarna's Observatory quest or murdering Arkymyr for his grimoire.  Confuses all targets on cast around the caster and then teleports the caster to a location and makes them invisible.  It has some unique properties to it and it does not behave like either stealth or invisibility.  Example: DoT damage breaks it, but casting non damaging affliction spells and buffs does not break the stealth.
• Stealth or invisibility does not break on DoT damage anymore.
• Arquebus is the preferred tool of the ranged assassin for maximum alpha strike and the reload instead of recovery.  Effectively you can double shot out of stealth with no time inbetween shots aside from the animation time.  Dragon's Dowry is the best, though I would keep a non lash weapon around because of the new immunity rules (a weapon with a elemental lash will count all of it's damage as that element, meaning that if the enemy is fire immune and you have a fire lash on your weapon, all damage will be resisted as it's all counted as "fire").
• Bows are good too though so it all depends on what you want.

I've solo'd a good chunk of PotD upscaled with an Assassin/Evoker so it's a combo that works well.  The Accuracy and Pen bonus from stealth is really nice for spells.

[brasilgringo]

 

Assuming you're playing with Assassin/Wizard:

• Arquebus is the preferred tool of the ranged assassin for maximum alpha strike and the reload instead of recovery.  Effectively you can double shot out of stealth with no time inbetween shots aside from the animation time.  Dragon's Dowry is the best, though I would keep a non lash weapon around because of the new immunity rules (a weapon with a elemental lash will count all of it's damage as that element, meaning that if the enemy is fire immune and you have a fire lash on your weapon, all damage will be resisted as it's all counted as "fire").
• Bows are good too though so it all depends on what you want.

 

Wouldn't it be better to alpha strike from stealth with something like delayed fireball plus fireball or ningauth's fireball, perhaps empowered, rather than arquebus?  So you get the assassin bonus as well?

 

Do we know if Blood Sacrifice breaks stealth (due to self damage)?  I wonder if it's worth it if you lose empower for stealth strikes, probably not. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by brasilgringo

[guildwriter]

Wouldn't it be better to alpha strike from stealth with something like delayed fireball plus fireball or ningauth's fireball, perhaps empowered, rather than arquebus?  So you get the assassin bonus as well?

 

Do we know if Blood Sacrifice breaks stealth (due to self damage)?  I wonder if it's worth it if you lose empower for stealth strikes, probably not. 

 

Was mostly referring to how you want to use ranged weapons and that you want to use warbows.  The starting approach really depends on the group makeup and what you want to do, but yes, oftentimes opening up with nina's shadowflame is a great thing for assassin/wizard.  

 

Never tested Blood Sacrifice from stealth but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.  Things like Darkest Before Dawn from the Protective Eothesian Charm break stealth so it's entirely possible.

[Saito Hikari]

I've had time to think on Arcane Archer a bit more, and I'm still of the opinion that it's still a bit too limiting for a subclass that doesn't really introduce much of anything new mechanics-wise beyond a small pool of instant cast spells. It also never sat well with me that Arcane Archer comes with penalties to using the vast majority of weapons in the game, while simultaneously not providing any bonuses at all to the few weapons that are exempt from said penalty. The bonuses they do have are also entirely focused on the Imbue abilities, and the bonus is 'limited' compared to other Ranger subclasses. Once you run out of Bond to use said abilities, the bonuses are effectively no longer active (while other Ranger subclasses have persistent bonuses and penalties throughout a fight).

 

I did come up with two potential suggestions though, and I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them.

 

1) To address the above, I wonder if Arcane Archer should have their Ranger tree adjusted so that they get the +1 elemental penetration passives added at, say, power level 4 or 6, so the few weapons that are exempt from the penalty actually do get a bonus without having to multi with a wizard, priest, or druid. The Arcane Archer would still have to expend a point to learn the passive(s) of choice, but it would make Arcane Archer much more enticing to multi with when building around use of the elemental ranged weapons.

 

-OR-

 

2) The more limiting option that only matters for Cipher multiclass players, allowing Imbue abilities to generate focus. This only matters for Imbue: Missiles and Imbue: Fireball, as multiclassing with a Cipher by default means that the Arcane Archer is locked out of Imbue: Death.

 

The first is probably a much more elegant solution, now that I think on it further.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[AndreaColombo]

I would rather extend the Accuracy bonus to all attacks made with weapons that are exempt from the penalty. You still pay the opportunity cost to invest in Arcana instead of other active skills and the bonus is what, +6/+7 if you really max out on it? Not exactly broken, considering how far out of your way you need to go to get it.

 

I like the idea of making the elemental talents available to it as well. Would be neat in addition to extending the Acuracy bonus.

Edited December 8, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

It is a subclass.

 

Thus it's not supposed to be better or worse than a vanilla ranger.

 

Once you get a weapon with elemental dmg the Arcane Archer will have no ACC penalty. So you can completely circumvent the first penalty if you wish (Essence Interruptor comes very early).

 

The Arcane Archer will get some abilites that will trigger an (AoE) spell with every jump he can generate (Driving Flight + jumps from item enchantments). PLUS he gets a huge stackable ACC bonus when maxing Arcana (besides being able to use scrolls). THat bonus also apploies to the imbue spells. That is already very strong. Imbue: Minor Missiles will be altered in a way that it scales with PL as normal Missiles do: more PL = more projectiles.

 

Because of that, Arcane Archer is one of the few classes atm with whitch I can clear a whole pack of dummies with one, maybe two shots (Imbue: Death has a huge AoE and if you manage to trigger it thrice with Driving Flight + Watershaper's Focus most groups are done for). 

 

Giving him bonus ACC from Arcana for all his attacks with an elemental weapon would just be OP. Ranger already can stack a ton of ACC bonuses. 

Giving him a penatly for normal weapons and no penalty for some others and a big ACC bonus for his imbue ability is totally balanced in my opinion.

 

Compared to all that his remaining penalty (-15% health) is neglectable - as a ranged character his health pool isn't his most important feat anyway.

 

So all in all - why are you guys complaining? As I already said: those are not prestige classes that are supposed to give you more power. But Arcane Archer already does this.  

Edited December 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[Saito Hikari]

I would rather extend the Accuracy bonus to all attacks made with weapons that are exempt from the penalty. You still pay the opportunity cost to invest in Arcana instead of other active skills and the bonus is what, +6/+7 if you really max out on it? Not exactly broken, considering how far out of your way you need to go to get it.

 

I like the idea of making the elemental talents available to it as well. Would be neat in addition to extending the Acuracy bonus.

 

The bonus accuracy isn't that low. There's a reason why I've decided to back off on suggesting to extend the Arcana bonus to everything that is exempt from the penalty once I learned that Arcane Archer didn't work that way.

 

The bonus has a base of +5 accuracy. +0.5 accuracy is added to the bonus for every point of Arcana invested. A level 19 Arcane Archer with 22 Arcana is getting +16 accuracy bonus (+5 base and +11 additional Arcana bonus) to their Imbue abilities. Adding that to everything that is exempt from the penalty would be bonkers and would cement Arcane Archer as a strict multiclass option.

 

---

 

Also, I was somewhat wrong with Arcane Archer not introducing new interesting synergy. I found one very niche interaction when I looked at the Wizard spell list and realized something. Consider Citzal's Martial Power. That ability buffs the caster's stats and accuracy to rather absurd levels when used, but disables spellcasting.

 

It does not disable Imbue. The accuracy bonus ALSO stacks with Arcane Archer's Imbue bonuses!

 

https://i.imgur.com/oOK9s1r.png

 

Thing is, this is basically an endgame interaction since Citzal's Martial Power is a PL7 Wizard spell. It's probably still not interesting enough to really pursue (especially since you only have enough Bond to get two casts of super accurate Imbue: Fireballs), but it's a thing that exists, I suppose.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Saito Hikari]

The Arcane Archer will get some abilites that will trigger an (AoE) spell with every jump he can generate (Driving Flight + jumps from item enchantments). PLUS he gets a huge stackable ACC bonus when maxing Arcana (besides being able to use scrolls). THat bonus also apploies to the imbue spells. That is already very strong. Imbue: Minor Missiles will be altered in a way that it scales with PL as normal Missiles do: more PL = more projectiles.  

 

Are we missing something? The accuracy bonus only applies to the Imbue spells, so I'm not sure why you're basically saying that twice up there. Was there something added recently (or something going to be added that isn't implemented yet) or something that we all missed?

 

Although your first sentence in the quoted passage intrigues me, since I thought Driving Flight already let Imbue effects generate additional times with jumps. But the 'will get some abilities' wording implies that there's something being added soon that doesn't exist yet, and that more than likely will actually render any complaints I have completely moot. You seem to have a much closer relationship with the developers than anyone else here, going off of your posts in the bug testing section, so I guess I'll just sit and see what happens. Although I'm probably reading that wrong too, and you're basically talking about how Driving Flight already interacts with weapons like Frostseeker, which... Is a valid point.

 

(Also curse this forum's formatting for not letting me copy/paste quotes into edits, although chances are this is something I haven't figured out.)

Edited December 8, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Takkik]

 

 

Assuming you're playing with Assassin/Wizard:

• Arquebus is the preferred tool of the ranged assassin for maximum alpha strike and the reload instead of recovery.  Effectively you can double shot out of stealth with no time inbetween shots aside from the animation time.  Dragon's Dowry is the best, though I would keep a non lash weapon around because of the new immunity rules (a weapon with a elemental lash will count all of it's damage as that element, meaning that if the enemy is fire immune and you have a fire lash on your weapon, all damage will be resisted as it's all counted as "fire").
• Bows are good too though so it all depends on what you want.

 

Wouldn't it be better to alpha strike from stealth with something like delayed fireball plus fireball or ningauth's fireball, perhaps empowered, rather than arquebus?  So you get the assassin bonus as well?

 

Do we know if Blood Sacrifice breaks stealth (due to self damage)?  I wonder if it's worth it if you lose empower for stealth strikes, probably not. 

 

blood sacrifice interrupt the invisibility from arkemyr spell, just tested.

[Boeroer]

 

The Arcane Archer will get some abilites that will trigger an (AoE) spell with every jump he can generate (Driving Flight + jumps from item enchantments). PLUS he gets a huge stackable ACC bonus when maxing Arcana (besides being able to use scrolls). THat bonus also apploies to the imbue spells. That is already very strong. Imbue: Minor Missiles will be altered in a way that it scales with PL as normal Missiles do: more PL = more projectiles.  

 

Are we missing something? The accuracy bonus only applies to the Imbue spells, so I'm not sure why you're basically saying that twice up there. Was there something added recently (or something going to be added that isn't implemented yet) or something that we all missed?

I meant that the ACC bonus not only counts for the initial attack roll of your ranged weapon (first hit roll) but also to the hit rolls of the attached spells (second and consecutive hit rolls).

 

 

Although your first sentence in the quoted passage intrigues me, since I thought Driving Flight already let Imbue effects generate additional times with jumps. But the 'will get some abilities' wording implies that there's something being added soon that doesn't exist yet, and that more than likely will actually render any complaints I have completely moot. You seem to have a much closer relationship with the developers than anyone else here, going off of your posts in the bug testing section, so I guess I'll just sit and see what happens. Although I'm probably reading that wrong too, and you're basically talking about how Driving Flight already interacts with weapons like Frostseeker, which... Is a valid point.

Imbue spells already scale with Power Level, but Minor Missiles doesn't add additional projectiles... yet. It's the goal of Nick Carver (the designer of the subclasses) that it does. That's all I meant.

 

So the imbue spells not only will have tremendous ACC (a lot higher than wizards' spells) but will also profit from PL like any wizard's spells.

 

They also work with the corresponding elemental PEN-Abilities (like Scion of Flame) and certain items (like Ring of Focused Flame) by the way, but that's just a side note. 

 

I have no closer relationship with the developers than most users here. I'm just a busy poster.

 

 

 

(Also curse this forum's formatting for not letting me copy/paste quotes into edits, although chances are this is something I haven't figured out.)

You can do it with no fuzz once you switch on the BBCode Mode (top left button that looks like a tiny light switch). You can then copy tags + content which makes it easier.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[Saito Hikari]

Ah. All that I already knew, so I didn't end up missing anything.

 

I still think Arcane Archer should at least have one adjustment to have the elemental +1 pen passives added to their version of the Ranger skill tree, as that would provide some bonus to the few weapons that don't fall under the penalty. Again, they'd still have to spend skill points to get the passives just like wizards do, the purpose of this would be to create new synergy for people to consider having other non-casters multiclassing with Arcane Archer for very specific use of the ranged elemental weapons rather than the casters (of which the rest of the caster skillset may not mesh well with what people have in mind).

 

Then again, my idea design philosophy probably doesn't mesh well with yours or much of the developers. I understand it's not meant to be better than the other Ranger subclasses, the crux of my argument is that I just want something that would make it more of an enticing multiclass option in a more unique way compared to the others. As it currently stands, I kind of feel that Arcane Archer veers too hard into 'do not consider multiclassing at all' territory.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Gregorovich]

It would be a nice idea to add someting like: Equipment: X Ammo, Where X is Fire, Frost, Acid, Electric, Magic (raw damage). So you get these types of ammo on the first, third, fifth, seventh and nineth PLs. They give you the bonus: +20-30% damage, but you deal 20% to yourself as raw. If you shoot with ammo, you have no ACC penalty. The opportunity to multiclass with Paladin for self-heal or Monk to get wounds.

[AndreaColombo]

I thought their Accuracy bonus would be smaller. +16 indeed ends up being pretty high.

 

I still wouldn’t choose Arcane Archer over Sharpshooter, a Wizard, or a Sharpshooter/Wizard. Being pigeonholed into a very few weapons or specific multiclass combinations to avoid a penalty doesn’t sit right with me. Appreciate that YMMV.

[Boeroer]

Does anybody know if Devoted's PEN bonus would also apply to the imbue-spells of an Arcane Archer? Not at home atm...

[TheWeaver]

Has anyone checked to see if Eccea's arcane blaster is exempt from the Arcane Archer penalty (either before or after enchanting with one of the elemental options)?  So far I think we have: Frostseeker and Essence Interrupter as the exempt weapons -- any others that folks have found?

[Boeroer]

Minor Blights

[AndreaColombo]

Rot Skulls should be exempt too.

[Boeroer]

Don't they deal crush damage (primarily)? I'm not sure now - didn't really use them that much in Deadfire. But if Spirit of Decay works with them they should also work with Arcane Archer.

 

What about Nannasin's Cobra Strike?

[Saito Hikari]

Has anyone checked to see if Eccea's arcane blaster is exempt from the Arcane Archer penalty (either before or after enchanting with one of the elemental options)?  So far I think we have: Frostseeker and Essence Interrupter as the exempt weapons -- any others that folks have found?

 

Essence Interrupter, Frostseeker, and Dragon's Dowry are the only ones I've tested (for actual weapons). Theoretically, Thundercrack Pistol should also be exempt, and it's possible that a select few other ranged weapons may be as well after they take upgrades that grant the ability to inflict elemental damage. Caedebald's Blackbow should also be exempt, in the off-chance that the new DLC introduces a way to use it as an Arcane Archer (currently available to PL9 single-class Wizards).

 

Minor Blights is also exempt, others say Rot Skull as well.

 

I've tried an elemental melee weapon (St. Dogga's Skull) and that one got the penalty, so I assume all melee weapons, elemental or not, get the penalty. Unless dual-wielding requires both weapons to be elemental to have both become exempt.

[AndreaColombo]

Caedebald's Blackbow should also be exempt, in the off-chance that the new DLC introduces a way to use it as an Arcane Archer (currently available to PL9 single-class Wizards).

 

This would indeed be super interesting. If Arcane Archer was given the ability to select that spell as ability with a Bond cost, for example. Or if a scroll was introduced.

 

Hope Nick still has eyes on this thread