Finally finished the game...I'm... confused :D

[Skie Nightfall]

At least the way the story unfolded made it easy for me to decide the first game is better.

 

When the gods said the souls will be stuck without the wheel, I thought they lie to me. That they just need the wheel so they'll be able to siphon some souls for themselves, and that some cycle always existed even before the gods were made.

However, if they told me the truth, then I have no idea what's up with the world's lore anymore.

 

I've seen old discussion about the ending from around May. Did anyone make clear sense of it since then? Any dev came out with a canon explanation?

[Mallard]

I think that Josh Sawyer used the analogy of a dammed river.

 

The rebirth cycle of souls (river) flows naturally, but the Engwithans constructed the Wheel (dam) to regulate the flow.

 

Specifically, the Wheel (dam) redirects some of the flow to feed/empower the Gods.

 

Destroying the Wheel (dam) cuts off the flow to the Gods. What this means for the Gods' future existence is unclear.

 

Personally, I would love to see an "extended cut" like for Mass Effect 3, that helped clarify the ending and fleshed out Act 4...

Edited October 30, 2018 by glennjones130486

[Skie Nightfall]

Why even bring up something like ME3 >.<
Extended cut didn't really do much for it

 

But yea, that works for me.

What was Eothas endgame then? Let the flow be natural again and the world see the gods for what they are and decide what to do about it?

[Mallard]

 

Why even bring up something like ME3 >.<

Extended cut didn't really do much for it

 

Agreed, nothing comes close to the ME3 "ending". I regret my comparison and apologize to the Obsidian devs.

 

Perhaps I should have said "director's cut" and mentioned KOTOR II instead!

[house2fly]

Eothas's goal was for the Wheel to be fixed.

 

To do this, gods and mortals would have to work together. Gods need the Wheel to sustain them, so they have to prove to mortals that they're worth keeping around. This will result in a new relationship between gods and mortals, one based on truth and mutual support rather than lies and worship.

 

Or maybe it won't. I think it's a bit idealistic of him, but it's nice that he has faith I guess. Basically as the god of rebirth he's bringing the dawn and letting us decide what to do with it

[Wormerine]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/179141719626/poe1-the-wheel-is-a-naturalmetaphysical

 

 

 

 

The Wheel is a natural phenomenon that was regulated so heavily by the Engwithans that the destruction of the regulating machines does not return it to its natural state, but leaves it effectively broken. Berath uses the analogy of a river that has been so extensively dammed for so long that removing the dams cannot possibly restore the river's original, natural flow. I.e., the machines at Ukaizo are now (at the time of Deadfire) intergral to the Wheel's process of taking souls into the Beyond. When they are broken, the natural process cannot resume on its own because it has been subverted for over two thousand years.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Wormerine

[Skie Nightfall]

Thanks for the replies, they help

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

At least the way the story unfolded made it easy for me to decide the first game is better.

 

 

All things considered... I have the sticky suspicion that you may have a fair point here. 

[Verde]

Deadfire is a shallow game mostly, I really don't think Obs put much thought into the stories, but focused way too much on having full voice overs.

 

I mean the Gods are so cringey, it's almost unbelievable.

[house2fly]

The writers didn't do the voice overs themselves, they hired voice actors

[InsaneCommander]

Considering some endings, I imagine Eora is doomed. The factions would rather fight among themselves or abandon the Deadfire than work together.

[Verde]

The writers didn't do the voice overs themselves, they hired voice actors

Yes, and that's why the writing suffered. Budget for voice actors and less dialogue.

[Tarlonniel]

Considering some endings, I imagine Eora is doomed. The factions would rather fight among themselves or abandon the Deadfire than work together.

 

 

Oh, Eora is definitely doomed. I hear they've already decided on the title of the third game - Pillars of Eternity: Grab What You Can and Get Out.

[house2fly]

 

The writers didn't do the voice overs themselves, they hired voice actors

Yes, and that's why the writing suffered. Budget for voice actors and less dialogue.

you think the game didn't have enough writers? Did it have significantly fewer than the first game?

[Verde]

Well the writing in the first was considerably better, so it's a fair assumption that the voice overs hurt the writing.

 

I think the voice acting is actually pretty good but then writing isn't.

[Zaris]

I agree with Verde that it’d be much better if extra budget from voiceover was used for hiring more writers. It really doesn’t improve the experience to have some random NPC do a horrible accent; amazingly written lines do. I still consider Tyranny far superior to any other isometric RPG and it has few voiced dialogues.

 

As for Eora being f*cked I guess it is. But it may be a cool thing: in all fiction of the world, since mythologies to modern games, we have a hero rescue the world in the last second; even cliche-breaking GoT crawled into nice, familiar good/evil conflict. So PoE 3 finishing with an end of the world despite our heroic efforts would be a nice refreshment. This gut-punch would be even better if Watcher becomes really powerful in the last part, almost like a god, and failes nevertheless. A moral along the lines „if everybody did just a little it would save us, but all of the world just waited for a hero and a group of specialists (animancers in that case) to save their lazy as*es” is infinitely better than „hey, one guy/gal can just take all the sh*t on themselves, so you can jut relax and go back to peeling turnips”.

[house2fly]

Well the writing in the first was considerably better, so it's a fair assumption that the voice overs hurt the writing.

 

I think the voice acting is actually pretty good but then writing isn't.

The two things aren't related. It's like saying the enchanting system was changed in Deadfire and that's why the writing is worse. Or you sail around in a boat instead of walking on foot, which hurts the writing.

 

Maybe what changed isn't the number of writers, but who the writers were.

[Mallard]

 

So PoE 3 finishing with an end of the world despite our heroic efforts would be a nice refreshment. This gut-punch would be even better if Watcher becomes really powerful in the last part, almost like a god, and failes nevertheless.

 

I hate to make the comparison again, but this idea treads dangerously close to the ME3 ending...

[Zaris]

How? ME3 is exactly the opposite: lone hero saving enitre Galaxy, with his small crew and no allies. They SHOULD end it in a bad way as described above, make Reapers truly Lovecraftian (I know this adjective is overused on the Internet, but here it fits perfectly) and show that there are dangers against which there are no victories. OR that there could be a victory but everybody should unite way sooner.

[InsaneCommander]

Well, there is always the possibility that real gods exist. I don't think it'll happen, but they could show up in PoE3 and punish everyone for believing in false gods.

[Tarlonniel]

Reminds me of the Star Trek episode "Charlie X", where the havoc-wreaking demi-god's "parents" show up at the end and take him away while apologizing for his bad behavior. That would be amazing.

 

Edit: And also "The Squire of Gothos," though he's a more silly and less havoc-wreaking version.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[InsaneCommander]

Reminds me of the Star Trek episode "Charlie X", where the havoc-wreaking demi-god's "parents" show up at the end and take him away while apologizing for his bad behavior. That would be amazing.

 

I hope they add something like that in The Orville. A character like Q, but instead of an adult, it's a little brat.

 

Imagine if a more powerful being turns Rymrgand to dust. That would cause an impression.

[Wormerine]

I must disagree, that writing quality is worse in Deadfire. In part, because it is such a vague criticism. How is it worse exactly?

Thing I can criticise about Deadfire is a lack of focus and proper pay off. We spend majority of time interacting with actions, but there is fairly little pay off of siding with one. Eothas seems like a thing game would focus on, yet he gets little screen time and development. Are those writing issues? I really dont think so. Is it writers decision what areas and quest make into the game? Do they have much influence over how much time and resources are devoted to individual areas? How much influence did they have over how companions were designed system wise?

It seems like its more of an issue of overall narrative design, possibly clashing with other design goals. Cerainly, PoE1 was more writer friendly - with less dynamic companions, a more linear story - individual design elements which make it easier for writers to create more traditional arcs. I would guess that a lot of changes and restrictions made to Deadfire made writer's job more difficult. The end result might not be fully satisfying, but did writers did a piss poor job? I don't think so - story arcs are still there, carefully planted, themes and setups thoughtfully interwine throughout the whole game, factions are really well explored and develop, each's ideology and cultural background finding reflections in various character which represent those factions. 

 

I don't know how hiring more writers would help Deadfire in any way. It's not like it lacks writing - it's just overall structure and direction doesn't quite work, even though there quite great individual things about it. 

 

Frankly, Gods are fine. They didn't change since the first game.  Set up for whatever comes next is exciting - I just wish we got to it in Deadfire. 

[Ist'Tyrr]

Well, each game gave me different impressions. PoEI captured me because of its characters; From the start, each one had their own theme or characteristic that made them unique. I loved talking to them and reading their stories (even *gasp* Durance, whose story twist I didn't anticipate). Their quest resolutions were fulfilling and in par with how things had developed through the game. I felt that, by the end, I was playing POEI, not so much for the storyline, but because I had bonded with the characters. Hiravias and Sagani are still my favourite.
 
Tyranny's storyline was more tightly packed, with clear progression and a goal but that left little space for world-building and exploring. It felt like a short story, with all the pros and cons. The characters were interesting (especially Kills-In-Shadow) but they didn't "stick". Besides that, Tyranny truly delivered in its main promise, which I thought was to challenge conventional RPG morality - and the player's morality specifically. I caught myself playing "Limbo" with my standards during each quest.
 
PoEII was extremely immersive. The moment you land on port Maje, you soak in its culture. I had to bring out a piece of paper and write all the new Vailian words added to the repertoire (bazzo! <3). Sure, maybe playing a Vailian Watcher made me partial to it, but I loved it. Deadfire felt that much more lively and real, where Dyrwood seemed bland in comparison. In a funny way, it felt kind of homey. I was impressed by how much detail they put into fleshing out the different factions: the places, the dress and habitation, the way that mannerisms and speech patterns were captured in dialogue.
And certain individual quests were thoroughly written - Tikawara was a memorable one for me. I truly agonised over the questline, trying to figure out the best way (ethically and practically) to resolve it. And I still haven't decided who to give the damn diary to! 
From companions, I felt that Serafen was the most integrated into the game - in fact I wish that every companion had just as much commentary during quests, even the most random ones. Now if only I could a) hug him, to console him (words just don't cut it sometimes) and b) get options to call him out on his bullsh*t, the way Pallegina does! XD
 
TL;DR - The writing was there in both PoE games, but the focus is different in each game. PoEI was more interpersonal - it was all about you and your companions and your quest. PoEII is bigger in scope; The cat is out of the bag, Eothas walks on Eora and you're left to deal with all the social/political implications and faction war that follows in his wake as you chase him.  And keeping in mind that there might be a PoEIII - I can say that Deadfire felt more like a cliffhanger, where the Watcher's fate, the companions' storylines  and even the main quest are left open-ended and unresolved in anticipation of the finale.

[Verde]

 

Well the writing in the first was considerably better, so it's a fair assumption that the voice overs hurt the writing.

 

I think the voice acting is actually pretty good but then writing isn't.

The two things aren't related. It's like saying the enchanting system was changed in Deadfire and that's why the writing is worse. Or you sail around in a boat instead of walking on foot, which hurts the writing.

 

Maybe what changed isn't the number of writers, but who the writers were.

You think the writing of the dialogue and the voicing of the dialogue isn't related? Edited November 1, 2018 by Verde