Most of people say Resolve and Cons are relatively worse

[Erik Dirk]

Also how is the mega boss extra HP currently boosted, do they currently have absurd con?

[Boeroer]

Would this mean you could always heal to some extent an 18 con character. I.e nalzpaca with drug crash?

No, because the healing received malus because of injuries, CON afflictions or burden of the body is multiplicative, or in other words gets applied after all the other stuff was taken into account. If you have Burden of the Body you receive no healing as if you were weakened - no matter your bonuses.

 

Since I would vote for an additive "healing received" bonus for CON (same mechanics as MIG's "+healing done" bonus) there would be no problem in this regard (look at MIG that does "+healing done"). We had additive "+healing received" as well as "+healing done" items in PoE so I guess it's not a problem when it comes to implementation (code wise).

[Boeroer]

Also how is the mega boss extra HP currently boosted, do they currently have absurd con?

I think they have highish CON (but not over the cap). But the meat comes from the flat values you can give each character. Look at CRE_Dummy: tons of HP but low stats.

[Erik Dirk]

 

Would this mean you could always heal to some extent an 18 con character. I.e nalzpaca with drug crash?

No, because the healing received malus because of injuries, CON afflictions or burden of the body is multiplicative, or in other words gets applied after all the other stuff was taken into account. If you have Burden of the Body you receive no healing as if you were weakened - no matter your bonuses.

 

Since I would vote for an additive "healing received" bonus for CON (same mechanics as MIG's "+healing done" bonus) there would be no problem in this regard (look at MIG that does "+healing done"). We had additive "+healing received" as well as "+healing done" items in PoE so I guess it's not a problem when it comes to implementation (code wise).

It'd be more interesting if con contributed less than might but was applied afterwards too.

I.e. only 1% per point above 10 (no extra effect below 10 as this progressively

makes you vulnerable to spike damage)

 

Alternatively take it to the next level and make this effect only apply to reduced healing but at much higher values.

[Boeroer]

I think that's too complicated to have any chance of implementation.

 

It would also circumvent the absolute effects of weaken, enfeebelment and Burden of the Body which is not what devs want I guess. 

 

As I said: the additive bonus/malus is a good thing because it also means you don't have to balance a lot because on the player's side the average healing should be still the same. And if enemies with high CON who get healed will be tougher to beat: well everybody is complaining about the low difficulty, right?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[whimper]

I’d be happy with either a healing received tweak to Con or a multiplicative damage reduction tweak to Con.

 

One perk with the latter, though, is that it would be more generally useful to all classes. I.e., if Con adjusted healing received, it’d be more useful to (say) Paladins than Barbarians or Monks, since Paladins have a lot more sources of healing. Whereas if Con adjuster damage reduction, it would be equally valuable for Paladins and Barbarians and Monks (and Rogues, and...).

 

And I like Con being equally useful for Monks and Barbarians!

[Boeroer]

But healing received also means that all healing spells that get cast on you will work better. So everybody with high CON will profit as soon as he/she gets healed, no matter the source.

 

Your point is only valid in a solo game, isn't it? By the way Barbs have Savage Defiance. 

 

Multiplicative dmg reduction would maybe interfere with additive dmg reduction (the Wall, several items, underpenetration)?

[whimper]

But healing received also means that all healing spells that get cast on you will work better. So everybody with high CON will profit as soon as he/she gets healed, no matter the source.

 

Your point is only valid in a solo game, isn't it? By the way Barbs have Savage Defiance.

 

Multiplicative dmg reduction would maybe interfere with additive dmg reduction (the Wall, several items, underpenetration)?

Yeah, you’re right that I was unconsciously slipping into thinking in terms of solo games. : P

 

I agree that the effects of a multiplicative damage reduction factor, when employed with other damage reduction factors, would be something the needs to be assessed in terms of balance. It doesn’t seem *that* unbalancing to me off the top of my head, but I could well be missing something!

[Hoo]

Well, the extra healing received option would be cool, but I'm not sure that players are willing to drop the other offensive attributes such as Perception or Dexterity in order to get higher Constitution instead. Does the change make some Constitution-oriented build shiny enough? As far as I know there is few such build now.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Hoo

[Erik Dirk]

It still sounds like a pretty lackluster boost. It'd have to be larger than 3% for most players to consider taking really high con over might, and then it'd start to become a bit too easy to become immortal through passive healing.

 

The endurance idea wouldn't be too hard if it extended beneficial effects.

Alternatively it could give back class resources over time, casters get a % save v.s. a successful interrupt.

 

Again, does con really need an added effect below 10pts?

[Boeroer]

The goal is to make it less of a dump stat, not necessarily make it a competitor to PER or DEX.

 

But if you get less max health and less healing when dropping CON...

[Prince of Lies]

That, I think, is the issue when people look at balance. They look at Per/Dex/Mig (and to a lesser extent Int) as being superior because of the increase to DPS. Con and Res are strictly defensive attributes.

 

I personally think that it's okay that way, it just needs to be balanced so that there is more of a reason to actually increase those attributes (Specifically Con).

[XEternalXDreamsX]

That, I think, is the issue when people look at balance. They look at Per/Dex/Mig (and to a lesser extent Int) as being superior because of the increase to DPS. Con and Res are strictly defensive attributes. I personally think that it's okay that way, it just needs to be balanced so that there is more of a reason to actually increase those attributes (Specifically Con).

Hmm, there is great ideas floating around for Constitution. Resolve seems to have a nice place for some builds. Especially with shield deflection on top plus equipment. I find that the decreased hostile effects duration and deflection bonus makes great bonuses toward tanky builds which kind of makes it okay leaving Con at 10 (aside from PoTD). There has to be a way to make it more enticing for us. The percent healed similar to Practiced Healer (3% or 5% per point) seems like it would add a nice bonus without being over the top.

[Erik Dirk]

Cons not really a dump stat, there's just not really a reason to increase it.

Would we end up with too much healing power? a Herald already makes characters pretty much untouchable with passive healing. Adding con could just be overkill.

[Boeroer]

As I said: giving a healing received bonus doesn't change the average healing at all.

 

It's just a motivation for trying out high CON builds and also an additional motivation to not drop it.

 

Balancing arguments do not really apply. This change would of course provide more healing for high CON chars but on the other hand it also leads to less healing for CON dumpsters. Those profited the most from stuff you mentioned (Herald's healing etc.). They could drop everything and go full offense while getting healed as much as any other char, becoming much harder to kill while being able to kill everything more quickly.

[Elric Galad]

So did we come to the conclusion that Resolve is balanced ? It is my opinion too.

Healing received is clearly the most logical choice, but it has several problems (given that some of the below are mutually exclusive) :

1) Con Affliction would be redundant with Con < 10.

2) It is annoying for UI. The spells and effects won't be able to show the actual healing value since it would vary between targets.

3) If it is added to the current effects of Might for healing done, it would be a big buff to Healing spells and effects. I beleive that Con is above 10 most of the time, especially in the endgame with all those buffs and items. All of them might require tweaking. I believe this is a problem.

4) If it replaces Might effect to healing done, it slightly decreases the efficiencies of healing spells since it is easier to have 1 char with high Might than several with high Con.

5) If it replaces Might effect to healing done, then Might become worse than Per (similar effects for damages, but Per applies to debuff too). Then another bonus should be added to Might. 

 

I had this weird idea about Con applying to healing done instead of healing received.

Even for me it sounds strange (not much more than might applied to healing by the way) but I can't prevent from thinking that it would actually solve issues #1, #2 and #4 from the above. Issue #3 would not be applicable.
Also adding an active property to Con is appealing IMHO from gameplay perspective.

Then another effect should be added to Mig 

[Hoo]

So did we come to the conclusion that Resolve is balanced ? It is my opinion too.

Resolve gives three options:

 

-3% Hostile Effect

+1 Deflection per point

+2 Will per point

 

I think small numerical bonus to either Hostile Effect reduction or Deflection bonus would be good. Adding +1 to Deflection bonus, however, seems too high, so I'd vote for -4~5% Hostile Effect. The problem of Resolve is that it gives defensive bonuses only imo. Unless changing one of the option from defensive to offensive, this still won't look attractive to most of players.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Hoo

[Elric Galad]

Hostile effect reduction is weird because of its incredible increasing return.

30% for 10 points is okay.
30% when one already has 30% is incredible. It is close to a permanent Clarity of Agony.

 

I thought 5% reduction would have been better, but in the form of 1 / (1+5%) reduction.

 

5% in the current form means immunity to hostile effect at 30 Resolve (or lower hard cap).

4% in the current form means immunity to hostile effect at 35 Resolve (or lower hard cap).

This would be too strong.

 

By the way Hostile effect reduction from Resolve is the reason why all stats are capped at 35.

Increase the magnitude and you'll mess up the whole system.

 

So I think it's currently okay.

People like to play all-in, so invincibility is underrated.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

So did we come to the conclusion that Resolve is balanced ? It is my opinion too.

 

Healing received is clearly the most logical choice, but it has several problems (given that some of the below are mutually exclusive) :

1) Con Affliction would be redundant with Con < 10.

2) It is annoying for UI. The spells and effects won't be able to show the actual healing value since it would vary between targets.

3) If it is added to the current effects of Might for healing done, it would be a big buff to Healing spells and effects. I beleive that Con is above 10 most of the time, especially in the endgame with all those buffs and items. All of them might require tweaking. I believe this is a problem.

4) If it replaces Might effect to healing done, it slightly decreases the efficiencies of healing spells since it is easier to have 1 char with high Might than several with high Con.

5) If it replaces Might effect to healing done, then Might become worse than Per (similar effects for damages, but Per applies to debuff too). Then another bonus should be added to Might.

 

I had this weird idea about Con applying to healing done instead of healing received.

Even for me it sounds strange (not much more than might applied to healing by the way) but I can't prevent from thinking that it would actually solve issues #1, #2 and #4 from the above. Issue #3 would not be applicable.

Also adding an active property to Con is appealing IMHO from gameplay perspective.

 

Then another effect should be added to Mig

No. None of that fully applies.

 

1) Con afflictons provide a healing malus that is multiplicative and reduce CON. This can totally add up without problems when it comes to Sickened. With Weakened and Enfeebled it doesn't make a difference of course because your healing is zero no matter what.

 

2) since we have had items with the same effect and nobody complained I guess that's not really a problem. If you cast a healing spell on a sickened or injured target you'll have the same situation and nobody seems to have a problem with that as well.

 

3) I think I mumble or something. For the third time: it's not a healing buff because the average amount of healing stays the same. If you drop CON you'll have less healing. If you push CON you'll have more. I haven't seen a single build that maxes out CON so far but lots that dump it. What might be the reason?

 

5) it will not replace MIG. MIG boosts healing DONE while CON healing RECEIVED. Why should one replace the other?

 

My reasons for favoring this:

 

- it's super easy to implement

 

- the danger of introducing bugs is minimal

 

- it doesn't mess up balance because in average healing will be the same.

 

- it makes dumping CON more unattractive

 

- it softens the problem that high HP chars heal a lot slower to full health than low HP chars because healing received is a flat value while stuff like Hurt, Bloodied, Near Death and others are percentage-based.

 

- it also solves the problem that a dumped CON (but high offense) char profits a lot from passive healing sources while a high CON char usually doesn't care.

 

 

But the most important point are the first two.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

 

3) I think I mumble or something. For the third time: it's not a healing buff because the average amount of healing stays the same. If you drop CON you'll have less healing. If you push CON you'll have more. I haven't seen a single build that maxes out CON so far but lots that dump it. What might be the reason?

 

 

Well I still believe that Con is most of the time above 10, even for characters that didn't add points to it. But I can see why you say it is not that much a buff. And you're right, it is supposed to be rewarding for High Con anyway.

 

It won't make the game easier anyway because I suspect foes have usually more Con than party 

 

 

- it's super easy to implement

 

- the danger of introducing bugs is minimal

 

 

Obsidian games are a bit like Egyptian fields. They are quite likely to become preys of bugs.

We must remember which is "Obsidian spirit animal".

 

I admit this is the very best argument. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Lol "Spirit Animal"

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

The goal is to make it less of a dump stat, not necessarily make it a competitor to PER or DEX.

 

But if you get less max health and less healing when dropping CON...

 

One way of making that is to have mechanics that seek to punish low Con characters on a situational basis. 

 

You will need more variety for that than what we have at the moment. Giving wounds in combat and exhaustive combat stamina are actually two very good suggestions so far. 

 

You could also consider making a very high Con character downgrade some afflictions, too. 

[Verde]

I always thought Resolve should affect healing...done. And maybe Con affects received. And maybe add on small Dmg Red every so +Con level.

 

My Trickster build was easy to create since I could completely dump Res and lower Con.

[Elric Galad]

 

You will need more variety for that than what we have at the moment. 

 

 

I think the whole point of Boeroer is to suggest a change that would be likely to be implemented.

More variety requires developpment cost for Obsidian, so it isn't likely unless really necessary.

 

But well, for PoE3 maybe

[Boeroer]

Right.